Thread: Symbols and all they stand for...

Please don't bash me on my closed-mindedness about certain things. It is what it is and you won't change my mind.

The Swastika thread started me thinking about symbols and how they adapt over time.
My own religious beliefs and my rebellious 16 year old son has made the topic of greater interest to me.

I do not allow pentacles /pentagrams into my home. Period. What someone else believes is fine with me. Everyone has freedom of choice and freedom of religion etc. But in MY HOME it's different.
My son likes to draw and I encourage his artistic side. But the pentagram keeps turning up in his work.

His Foster Mom accuses him of being a Satanist. He says he's not. He claims he only draws the symbol because he likes the design and that he's not using it in his work as a religious statement.
I tell him that in today's day and age, you can't change people's perceptions about certain things, and I used the Swastika thread as an example.

My nature is to "not rock the boat". If I KNOW something is offensive to someone else, I restrain from bringing it up. My son is the total opposite lol. He does certain things JUST to get a reaction out of people.

He says he shouldn't stop drawing something just because some people don't like it. And while I agree to a point, I think some things are better off left alone.
Namely: You don't wear a Swastika around victims of Natzi (sp) persecution and you don't draw pentagrams in Church or sport them around devoutly religiously people. It's a matter of respect.

He also jokes about having his penis tattooed with the American flag so every time he has sex, he's making a statement of "F" you to the government. *rolls eyes* He thinks it's the funniest idea in the world and that even the President would have to laugh.
Even though Jehovah's Witnesses are politically neutral, we respect the laws of the lands in which we live. I tell him that would be tremendously disrespectful and that the President almost suredly would NOT laugh and he would likely be killed by soldiers who have fought to defend their country. To defile the symbol of that nation would not be viewed as humorous.

What do y'all think?
What is the line you draw or are there any?
Are you more for protecting "freedom of speech and expression" or respecting the views and feelings of others?
Is there a middle ground? What would it be?

Do you feel the same way about certain figures of speech like "nigger/nigga" and "bitch/biotch"?
Are there any times when such phrases are acceptable or should they be banned from our language?

You know how some girls sign the i's in their names with hearts? Well sometimes I sign my i with a pentagram. Being an atheist, I find it ironic and amusing and couldn't care less what people think.

This IS America. Freedom of speech/expression was what this country was supposed to be based off of. If people express themselves in a manner that may be deemed controversial in a way that is non-invasive then there is no problem or issue. Just people getting their feelings hurt. People in general need to learn how not to get so pissed off at these sort of things.

If your son draws pentagrams, then let him draw pentagrams. If your son gets up in somebody's face just to see their reaction to something they might find offensive, then I'd slap him across the face.

"If your son draws pentagrams, then let him draw pentagrams. If your son gets up in somebody's face just to see their reaction to something they might find offensive, then I'd slap him across the face."

hahaa- VERY well said!

I have a history of practicing Witchcraft and Spiritism and I've had some experiences that won't change my mind about allowing pentagrams. My kids don't have that history and don't understand why I'm so "up tight" even though I explain my views.

I used to wear a Pentacle everywhere, all the time for many years. I squeezed it while I gave birth to my first son. It was a gift from my "first love" and every time, without fail, I had reached the end of my rope and was on the verge of literally self-destruction, that same first love would show up or call. One year, I broke all the points off of it (it was pewter) and threw it away. I felt an instant "freeing".
I ran into that first love some time later and he knew I had destroyed it.
He was strongly into Witchcraft and things I never knew about...

pentagram is a masonic/illuminati symbol

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

pentagram is a masonic/illuminati symbol

The Illuminati doesn't exist.

Please don't associate a holy symbol with conspiracy garbage.

First of all, don't state things so matter-of-factly that you can't back up. Both of you. In any case, it'll just start a never-ending stupid debate amongst resident knowitalls on a lucid dreaming forum in a thread that has nothing to do with conspiracy of the Illuminati or lack there of. So in shorter words, drop it. Now. Thanks.

Zhaylin, this has less to do with symbols and more to do with rebellion in my opinion. He just wants to be his own person without feeling like he's so controlled. So he's found something that he knows gets to you, and is using it go get to you. You're responding to it negatively which demonstrates to him that he can provoke responses from you, which lowers status. You hold less conceptual authority over him when you demonstrate that he is getting to you.

Nonreactivity is your friend here. Ignore it long enough and it will go away. It will INTENSIFY before it goes away though. This is all just my opinion, I'm obviously not a psychological professional. This seems rather common-sense to me though, not to be offensive. Teenagers go through phases.

Aye. I agree with most of what you said, Rainman.
My kids (and myself included to a lesser degree once reaching adulthood lol) fixate on certain things and the reactions of their family seem to influence the fixation not a single bit.

I try to live by the standard of "choose your battles wisely". If what my kids do isn't harting themselves or someone else and it's a matter of opinion and such, I'll let most things slide. My son KNOWS how I feel about magic and associated subjects and he pushes the line to test his limits (as all children do). Some of what I see I pretend I don't. I never even knew the symbols were drawn on the walls, floors, furniture until we moved to the farm and I started rearranging things.

The house was so thoroughly trashed, though, a den of demons could have easily inhabited the place lol *sigh/sob* So my kids didn't mind adding to the destruction. They don't normally draw anything on inappropriate surfaces, but once the modular reached a certain level of ?? filth they no longer cared.
So I no longer have that problem at the Farm and neither do I suspect I will come to have it once they come home. They also drew heartagrams, faces, and tagged the modular so it wasn't JUST pentagrams.

I agree that when I don't blow gasket over trivial matters, the matters tend to blow over much quicker. But my own conscience and religious integrity wont allow me ignore the symbol or allow it in my home in any form.
So we'll continue to butt heads over it. I just keep reminding him that he only has 1 year and 2 months before he turns 18 and then he can move out and draw whatever he wants

Just yesterday while waiting to cash my cheque, I picked up a Jehova's Witness pamphlet and started leafing through it. Came across an article that said the Witnesses don't use the cross because they believe Jesus was crucified on an upright stake. (I apologize if I'm mistaken there, I think it was a jehovas witness pamphlet, not 100% sure)

In that context, if you are against the cross, then I can see why you would be against pentagrams. Also it's only natural to fear that which you don't understand.

So to help you understand, did you know that all religious symbols are based on the Platonic Solids?

Spoiler for Platonic Solids:

The Jewish Star of Davis is in fact a star tetrahedron. Christianity's symbol of the cross is in fact a representation of a cube.

Spoiler for Cross = Cube:

Christianity sprang from Judaism. Connecting all the points of the star of david makes a hexagon, and the cube (cross) can be viewed as a hexagon as well, which can be viewed as paying homage to it's origins.

Spoiler for hexagon cube/Star of David:

Getting back to the pentagram, this is a representation of the symbol of Islam, which fits perfectly overtop the dodecahedron (the star fits over one of the faces while the cresent moon implies the rest of the structure). The 5 sided surfaces of the dodecahedron are the original inspiration for the pentagram, it has nothign to do with anything satanic.

Spoiler for Islamic Dodecahedron:

All religious symbols are based on these platonic solids, but over time this has been forgotten. Like the telephone game, things get distorted more and more as they get passed on from person to person.


I don't really know where I'm going with any of this, and I really don't expect it to change your mind about anything. All I'm saying is your son's facination with this shape is perfectly natural. All physical matter, every atom and molecule is based on the platonic solids. There is nothing evil about them, it's just the way things are.

some atheists find displays of faith offensive. Does this mean you should never mention your love of God in public because it's going to offend someone?

Personal is just that, personal. It doesn't mean you are right. It's just your opinion.

Having a BFA, I can tell you the swastika was meant to be a beautiful symbol. Sure, the iconic Nazi version of the swastika has a strong negative meaning for the world at large. But the swastika wasn't invented by Nazi's, and it doesn't belong to them or the modern day meaning it carries

http://www.cabiz.net/heartlink/swastika4.gif

it doesn't take much to reclaim the swastika to its original meaning. and people have every right to use the swastika, because its true meaning has nothing to do with nazis or injustice. it only takes some education to clear up the misunderstanding of the swastika

the pentagram is no different. the five pointed star, or any five pointed shape has been important to various cultures and religions. Including christianity. From the pentagon to the double tetrahedron. It's been related to the human being in some way cross cultures. Satanism or pagans didn't invent it or defined its meaning

"The pentagram is used as a Christian symbol for the five senses,[10] and if the letters S, A, L, V, and S are inscribed in the points, it can be taken as a symbol of health (from Latin salus).[citation needed]

Medieval Christians believed it to symbolise the five wounds of Christ. The pentagram was believed to protect against witches and demons.[11]

Most Christians, probably due to their misinterpretation of symbols used by ceremonial magicians, came to associate it with Satanism and subsequently rejected the symbol sometime in the twentieth century.[11]"


The Merkabah is believed to be like the human light body. Notice it's shape?






Those who believe in the Merkabah are neither wiccan or satanist. It has nothing to do with communing with spirits or magic. But age old meditation, prayer and unconditional love.

There is nothing wrong the pentagram, not even in christianity. It's meaning lies outside of magic.

Thanks for all the information and viewpoints!!

If it wasn't for my history with the symbol **I** wouldn't have a problem with the symbol in and of itself.
I didn't know the history of the shapes though. A million thanks for the education.

And you're correct, Cusp, JW's don't venerate the Cross. Whether Christ died on it or not is secondary to our belief that veneration of any symbol is wrong.

Even still... everyone has given me a lot to think about.

Juroara: You're great, your posts are always long and informative, I would love to add to the conversation but I can't think of much else to say.

Zhaylin: That pentagram that you say that your first lover gave to you was most likely more than just a pentagram. He probably had put some sort of spell on it. My mom had a similar experience that I could tell you about in PM if you wish.

Your son drawing pentacles should'nt worry you, they're just drawings. The pentacle gets way too much unwarranted negativity attatched to it, but Juroara has already cleared that up I think.

Wow. I fear your frightful smashing nipples, but love your text on the Platonic solids. Very important. But to 'get it', the boy will need to get over his angst long enough to get the habit of serious study.

*mouth opened in absolute awe*

Why the heck didn't I connect his obsession with an emotional "fact" I've known for a LONG time??? Why did it take a total stranger to open my eyes?
THanks Posquant for your reply.

I studied magic and spiritism for years. When I left it and returned to Christianity, I started comparing *perceived* similarities and differences in belief systems.
The person who practices magic (etc) seems to me to be a person who wants absolute control. They may chant, be vessles for energies, have an open mind toward answers and experience etc, yet they seem more ??? almost more proactive in their spiritual pursuits.

Christians, on the other hand, have to totally and most humbly submit to the will (and seemingly whims) of God. His ways seem very restrictive and rigid, yet joyful Christians gladly do all they can to please their God.

That's been my experience any how.

My son does, indeed, feel utterly powerless. He's trying to shape his world and change it to his liking the only way he knows how at this stage of life. And now that he's in Foster Care and unable to come home for at least two months, he's even more lost than ever.
Thanks for helping show me that.

Thanks to everyone else as well. I've thoroughly enjoyed all the replies!

**Edit**
LOL regarding my post count. I'm actually very proud of it because almost all of them have been "worthy" and well thought out posts (not one-liners or smilies).
My activity is starting to die down a little though

Zhaylin. Hi. Personally, I would love to spend more time here. I find here a high percentage of descent unpretentious thinking folk like yourself. I think the fact that we're all dreamers, already sharing the weirdness, leads to a sort of common respect. And, so, we can relate. And I do.

Symbols, energy, information ... conscious... conscience. It is becoming clear now, from discoveries emerging from quantum physics etc. - the infinite power of well formed information. Information is Form is Energy. I > MC2. Oh. And it's a multiverse. Infinite universes. Accessible via information, immaterial and atemporal.

But as old as science probably is, and as far as it all goes, personal experience is still the essence.

The fact of that further reality, real entities and beings in other realms, our own "being alongside" them, IS the first great truth. Science is revealing the framework. So, one might feel the bliss, or the horror - or just get annoyed. After that, many details ... and no turning back.

So, hard facts.

Easy New Age optimism aside...

What would you do if you found your mind actively enmeshed with a massively-connected multi-user cosmically distributed trans-temporal quantum telepathic communications network? You also get to participate in creating, shaping, directing it - even at your worst, your lowest, when you least want to.

Surprise! Guess what!

That's why I am also really really into ethics. Quantum ethics. Really, information ethics has simple rules. Golden Rule works perfectly well for quantum telepathy. The conventional information law of fraud, trespass, privacy, etc. also apply.

See what I mean? A subtle but powerful shift is required. Quantum telepathy. That is, contrary to our usual approach, there is no reason whatsoever to doubt the existence of all those entities out there. But we never really take this seriously, as a fact. Only when we assume their existence and our entanglement, take it as a given, a feature, can we really start thinking / acting in the world AS IT REALLY IS.

I think that this makes all the difference in the world.

Wow! Very interesting information. But your intellect and grasp of such things FAR exceeds my own abilities.

I can barely grasp the concept of alternate realities and parallel (sp!!) universes.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Please don't bash me on my closed-mindedness about certain things. It is what it is and you won't change my mind.

The Swastika thread started me thinking about symbols and how they adapt over time.
My own religious beliefs and my rebellious 16 year old son has made the topic of greater interest to me.

I do not allow pentacles /pentagrams into my home. Period. What someone else believes is fine with me. Everyone has freedom of choice and freedom of religion etc. But in MY HOME it's different.
My son likes to draw and I encourage his artistic side. But the pentagram keeps turning up in his work.

His Foster Mom accuses him of being a Satanist. He says he's not. He claims he only draws the symbol because he likes the design and that he's not using it in his work as a religious statement.
I tell him that in today's day and age, you can't change people's perceptions about certain things, and I used the Swastika thread as an example.

My nature is to "not rock the boat". If I KNOW something is offensive to someone else, I restrain from bringing it up. My son is the total opposite lol. He does certain things JUST to get a reaction out of people.

He says he shouldn't stop drawing something just because some people don't like it. And while I agree to a point, I think some things are better off left alone.
Namely: You don't wear a Swastika around victims of Natzi (sp) persecution and you don't draw pentagrams in Church or sport them around devoutly religiously people. It's a matter of respect.

He also jokes about having his penis tattooed with the American flag so every time he has sex, he's making a statement of "F" you to the government. *rolls eyes* He thinks it's the funniest idea in the world and that even the President would have to laugh.
Even though Jehovah's Witnesses are politically neutral, we respect the laws of the lands in which we live. I tell him that would be tremendously disrespectful and that the President almost suredly would NOT laugh and he would likely be killed by soldiers who have fought to defend their country. To defile the symbol of that nation would not be viewed as humorous.

What do y'all think?
What is the line you draw or are there any?
Are you more for protecting "freedom of speech and expression" or respecting the views and feelings of others?
Is there a middle ground? What would it be?

Do you feel the same way about certain figures of speech like "nigger/nigga" and "bitch/biotch"?
Are there any times when such phrases are acceptable or should they be banned from our language?

No offense, but this is just my opinion and I do not mean in any way to offend you or anyone else...

If his foster mom is so uptight about a five-pointed shape that gets drawn on paper that she accuses the artist of being a Satanist, then frankly I do not believe she deserves to care for children. I can understand your code, because you do not immediately jump to conclusions and will respect the rules of others.

I am not quite as religious as most and cannot find a title for the belief system I use. My guideline is this: I will do what I want, and you can do what you want. If you make any effort to change what I am doing, don't expect me to dismiss you politely more than twice. Is it possible that your son is just feeling provoked? With enough pressure, almost anyone will react negatively to that. Remember how the United States of America got it's start?

There's a time and place for everything, it just really bugs me when others try to force the opinion that they are right all the time about everything on everyone they meet.

About the phrases above, I believe that there are times for them to be used, but those times are rare and at least 95% of the time they are used needlessly.

Symbols can only "possess" meaning after you've given them meaning. Drawing a pentacle for the purpose of having a pretty looking geometric figure is one thing, and drawing it with a bunch of Latin words in a specific fashion with the intent of wanting someone to vomit blood until they die is quite another. I stand with what Black Eagle has already stated.

Zhalyin you are worrying about nothing, you leave it up to God know?

Why not worry about something more serious, cause their are many worse things that parents have to deal with.

If he is subconsciously drawing pentagrams perhaps your bloodline had a lot of pagans many many eons ago?

Really it doesn't matter because it's just a drawing.

I used to wear a Pentacle everywhere, all the time for many years. I squeezed it while I gave birth to my first son. It was a gift from my "first love" and every time, without fail, I had reached the end of my rope and was on the verge of literally self-destruction, that same first love would show up or call. One year, I broke all the points off of it (it was pewter) and threw it away. I felt an instant "freeing".

That was nothing but a battle from inside of you, you stopped rebelling to whatever voice is inside of your head. I read that your grandmother put the religion in your head. So perhaps she played a large role in your raising? You finally gave in to "god". Destroying the pentagram didn't really release any evil from you, their has to be a psychological explanation. Or the freeing was because it was from an old love, not because it caused any of your self-destruction..

It's hard to silence the voices of those who raised you, for good and bad.

You are now following in their path by being scared that your son is using pentagrams, when really religion is inconsequential and what matters is the heart of yourself and your son.

haha, I used to think I had Celtic and Wicca in my bloodline when I was young and interested in all this.
For me, the war with my son isn't only about his love of drawing the symbol. It's a power struggle. I tell him not to draw such in my house and he does anyhow (and to a large degree... I've found the symbol drawn on furniture, on walls, on practically any surface that's easily concealed). It seems to me he likes the symbol so much simply because I don't.

I stayed with my grandmother for a few weeks to a couple months every summer. She didn't really indoctrinate me. The most we did was go to church on Sunday and say prayers before eating and before sleeping.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

haha, I used to think I had Celtic and Wicca in my bloodline when I was young and interested in all this.
For me, the war with my son isn't only about his love of drawing the symbol. It's a power struggle. I tell him not to draw such in my house and he does anyhow (and to a large degree... I've found the symbol drawn on furniture, on walls, on practically any surface that's easily concealed). It seems to me he likes the symbol so much simply because I don't.

I stayed with my grandmother for a few weeks to a couple months every summer. She didn't really indoctrinate me. The most we did was go to church on Sunday and say prayers before eating and before sleeping.

I'm sure she had a big role in your life, especially during the summer.

If you stop worrying about the symbol, you have a better chance of him stopping.

Originally Posted by Invader

Symbols can only "possess" meaning after you've given them meaning. Drawing a pentacle for the purpose of having a pretty looking geometric figure is one thing, and drawing it with a bunch of Latin words in a specific fashion with the intent of wanting someone to vomit blood until they die is quite another. I stand with what Black Eagle has already stated.

If you don't think symbols aren't powerfull and don't have meaning to certain people. tattoo a swastika on your arm and go to the local synagogue.

I'd say your son should do some research so he can find out that the pentagram was originally demonized by christians who were afraid of the mathematical symbol and saw the sometimes scientific cults that held it in high regard as a threat.

I'd also like to confirm what Deathcell just said. You readily admit that he probably likes it because you don't. By telling him not to draw it, you are encouraging the behavior. Just stop reacting to it.

According to psychoanalysis, symbols are expression of the collective unconscious and do have meanings of their own, no matter if we agree with them consciously or not. There are even so called dictionaries of symbols.

Your son may be deceiving himself when he says that he likes only the shape. This shape must already be associated with certain things for him (unless he's small). Maybe deep inside he feels a vague affinity towards it but wouldn't want to think about it. Sorry but if he draws it practically on any surface...

Still it's not something to worry about seriously. Many people in youth are attracted to something "dark", I saw youngsters drawing demons, for example, and hanging those drawings on the wall. I too was attracted to evil during last years of school, it seemed "cool". Now I think that attraction to evil is an expression of protest, and it's normal for teenagers to be attracted to it, that's their only way to oppose society.

Marilyn Manson is a great example of somebody who does things aimed at young people who feel like that. He's all about protest for the sake of protest and being different for the sake of being different, no matter if it's better or if it makes sense. It makes sense emotionally, so he has many fans.

Lol that wasn't really helpful. I don't know what I'd do in your situation. But my point is that it's not forever, in a few years your son is likely to forget all about it. Meanwhile you'll struggle just because he wants to struggle for the sake of doing it. Imho.

You have made over 1000 posts just since joining in January.

Wow. Are the answers all here?

Have you read any good books lately? Non-fiction?

Symbols are only such as shared, in some context. Their "meaning" is in their function of referring to other things, intended or not. They are a communication, so subject to error and abuse.

Understand?

Their "meaning" IS the multiplication AND/OR variation of meaning.

Symbols are shorthand sums. They expedite transmission of summed experience, agreed identity, association or quality.

So you are so right.

How we are towards life through symbols is very weirdly powerful.

Information = Energy .... it's like that. These days, we have a lot of crap information, so plenty of twisted energies to boot.

Your boy is looking for symbols of power. He feels powerless. And he's rebelling against the meaningless and hypocrisy of it all. He is looking for meaing beyond infomercials and video games.

You're right to be suspicious of pentacles, at a very high level. Information attracts via affinity.

Tell him that ignorance is the root of all evil. Encourage him to study, if he wants to ever see anything deeper beyond the trivialities on the surface. That is the only path. Period.

Tell him that this is it. The war of good against evil is on. It is about our minds, and our information tech, psychic energy. But the evil on the other side is not sexy and strong and beautiful. It is petty, mundane, trivial, humiliating ... shiftless and smiling. And it wants to die.

I suggest you try to turn him on to sacred geometry, platonic solids, Phi the golden mean, fractals.

Much more healthy ...

PQ

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

He also jokes about having his penis tattooed with the American flag so every time he has sex, he's making a statement of "F" you to the government. *rolls eyes* He thinks it's the funniest idea in the world and that even the President would have to laugh.

oh god your son is awesome.