Thread: So, I think Christians are stupid.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Actually you cannot, you have a serious misunderstanding of Scripture. Which isn't surprising.

Oh yes, because it's a metaphor, right? Just like the parts with stoning non-virgins to death. Oh, but homosexuals absolutely go to hell, amirite?

but hell is a metaphor

Nevik beat me to it.

Ne-yo, anyone can derive deep, hidden meanings from any book without them actually being there. The bible is nothing special. The only thing different about the bible is that it actually attempts to explain our existence; except that it directly contradicts science, as would be expected from texts written thousands of years ago when the human race had hardly any broad scientific understanding of our universe whatsoever (at least without the help of God's "omniscience"). Oh yeah, and that it attempts to seem mysterious and all-knowing by using loaded terms and explanations. Loaded language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This would be expected from a book primarily used to control the masses, when in actuality the writer doesn't know jack shit about the actual underlying physics. God knows everything about the universe's creation, and would therefore know at least in which order to put important events in.

Right?



Edit: And may I direct you to an important section of the Wikipedia page that I sourced. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_term#Brainwashing

Originally Posted by Spartiate

but hell is a metaphor

No it isn't. I spent 23 minutes there. That place is no joke.

What's actually funny to me is that most intelligent atheist do not even argue this point anymore. Anyway, I'll break this down and I'll utilize Nevik's quotes to draw reference toward a complete understanding. Don't ever say I never did anything for you guys.

First thing one must understand is, we are reading accounts from the views of Ancient Eastern thinkers. We view events today in what is called 'step logic' meaning: the idea that each event comes after the previous, executing a series of events in a linear timeline. However, Ancient Hebrews writers did not think in step logic but instead in 'block logic' meaning: grouping together similar ideas in correlation and not in chronological order. The Hebrews style of writing is prolific with a style of poetry unfamiliar to most readers of the Bible. This poetry is nothing like the poetry we are used to reading today and therefore it is invisible to some.

Originally Posted by Nevik

Ne-yo:

Genesis 1: 1-10 KJV

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:1 says : "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth"...The heavens (sun, moon, stars, all that encompasses the Universe), including the planet Earth, had been created long before, at an unspecified time.

NOTE: The Hebrew word used for "created" is "ba·ra"
In the beginning God created (bara' "The literal meaning of the word bara' is to 'open up', 'to fill up' or to 'bring into tangible existence'. ... stresses that what was opened or filled or brought into existence was new and perfect. The word is used throughout the Bible only with God as its subject.")

NOTE ALSO: The waters EXISTED from day 1!

Originally Posted by Nevik

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Here in Genesis 1:2 God turns His attention to preparing the Earth for life chemistry. At that time, the Earth was still 'formless and waste' (desert, empty). and darkness covered the already existing waters.

The Universe, i.e., Outer Space and everything within it including planet Earth had already been in existence from 'In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth' as mentioned in Genesis 1:1.

Everything after this in the Genesis account from 1:3-31 are talking about the time spent specifically preparing the EARTH for complex life chemistry.

Originally Posted by Nevik

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Here in Genesis 1:3 The paradigm is shifted to the Earth Surface. God is preparing the Earth and there is a 'swaddling band' or a heavy water-filled cloud all around the Earth at this time. We can see this by what happens at Genesis 1:6-8 where God seperates the cloud into water 'on the Earth and water ABOVE the 'sky' or 'Heavens'. So here at Genesis 1:3 the thick cloud of water vapor, which had kept 'darkness on the surface of the earth',(as mentioned in Genesis 1:2 - darkness covered the already existing waters.) was thinning enough for light from the sun, moon and stars, to be seen from the surface of the earth. So,"Light came to be".

Originally Posted by Nevik

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Here in Genesis 1:4,5 God set's the Earth rotational axis allowing for stellar days creating day and night God also animates the Earth into an ecliptic orbit around our parent star.

Originally Posted by Nevik

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Day 2 Separation of the EXISTING WATERS
Here in Genesis 1:6-8 This is separation of the EXISTING WATERS as I mentioned earlier. God seperates the cloud into water 'on the earth and water ABOVE the sky' or 'heavens'. God's attention is still on the surface of the Earth.

Originally Posted by Nevik

9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, "Let the earth produce vegetation: plants bearing seeds, each according to its own type, and fruit trees bearing fruit with seeds, each according to its own type." And so it was. 12 The earth produced vegetation: plants bearing seeds, each according to its own type, and trees bearing fruit with seeds, each according to its own type. God saw that they were good. 13 There was evening, then morning-a third day.

Day 3 EXISTING WATERS under the Heavens or sky are gathered together.
NOTE: Plants and vegetation are brought into existence on Day 3 as well.

So since the paradigm was shifted to the surface of the Earth as stated in Genesis 1:2 and the rearrangement of EXISTING WATERS for Day 2 and for Day 3, Day 4 is a further continuance of rearranging of the cover, that on Day 4 the Lights that existed since Day 1 in the Heavens can shine brightly on the Earth as the atmospheric COVERING is changed, turned from translucent to occasionally transparent, as it is today. This change of Atmospheric conditions is one in part due to Day 1 God setting the Earth into rotation and Day 3's plant and vegetation creation. God's bringing fourth the existence of plants on Day 3 adds to this preparation as the plants generate and add oxygen to the atmosphere.

Originally Posted by Nevik

and....
Genesis 1: 16-19 KJV
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Here in Genesis 1:16 the lights or luminaries are 'made'

It is very important to note that the word used here is, infact, 'MADE', and not 'CREATED'. The word for MADE in Hebrew., wai·ya′‛as (from ‛a·sah′), is different from "CREATE" (ba·ra'′) found in Genesis 1:1, 21, 27.

A·sah translated as "made", has a very broad meaning even as "made" does in English.


She made the bed.

OR



Serta/Sealy 'made' the bed???

Do/Make
Original Word: עָשָׂה
Transliteration: asah
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-saw')
Short Definition: accomplish

accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow,
A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows) -- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress(-ed), (put in) execute(-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, (fight-)ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ((a feast)), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be (warr-)ior, work(-man), yield, use.
6213. ?????? (asah) -- do, make

So in conclusion: The Sun and moon had been 'CREATED' LONG before, when God created the Heavens. On the first "day," this is further apparent in expression "Let light come to be" which was used. The Hebrew word there used for "light" is 'ohr, meaning: light in a general sense. But on the 4th "Day," the Hebrew word changes to ma·'ohr′, which refers to a luminary or source of light. (Genesis 1:14) So, on the "Day 1" diffused light which apparently penetrated the swaddling bands, but the sources of that light could not have been seen by an Earthly observer. By the 4th Day, things had cleared up.

Originally Posted by Nevik

So, according to Genesis 1, light, darkness, and the Earth came before the sun, moon, and the stars. We know this to be false.

And as I mentioned you have a serious misunderstanding of biblical scripture. Which is very apparent based off of this last statement you've 'made'. If you are unsure of something all you have to do is ask.

Here are a few verses you will find interesting.
Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Matthew 7:7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Hang on a minute. If the bible can be interpreted so loosely and so widely (and it has been throughout history), what makes you think any part of it at all should be taken seriously? Especially considering the creation stories (plural, yes, there are two) of the bible drew on other existing creation stories from other religions and belief systems?

I'm going to respond to the one part of your response I find particularly interesting.

Here in Genesis 1:3 The paradigm is shifted to the Earth Surface. God is preparing the Earth and there is a 'swaddling band' or a heavy water-filled cloud all around the Earth at this time. We can see this by what happens at Genesis 1:6-8 where God separates the cloud into water 'on the Earth and water ABOVE the 'sky' or 'Heavens'. So here at Genesis 1:3 the thick cloud of water vapor, which had kept 'darkness on the surface of the earth',(as mentioned in Genesis 1:2 - darkness covered the already existing waters.) was thinning enough for light from the sun, moon and stars, to be seen from the surface of the earth. So,"Light came to be".

So, you believe that in some point in it's early history, the Earth was covered by a "swaddling band" of water. Now, my question is what happened to that "swaddling band"?

Did you even read the rest of the statement's I made? You're asking me a question that I've already given an answer for. If you read "everything" I stated up there, you will find what happened to it. If you would've read the entire post in the first place you wouldn't be asking me this question. :p

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Did you even read the rest of the statement's I made? You're asking me a question that I've already given an answer for. If you read "everything" I stated up there, you will find what happened to it. If you would've read the entire post in the first place you wouldn't be asking me this question. :p

Nice dodge, but your post doesn't answer my question. All it gives is your personal interpretation of the creation stories. What of the christians who consider them to be pure metaphor, or the people who literally think the earth is all of 6000 years old? Even in this day and age, there is no consensus about what the stories should or do mean. What makes you any more right than the christian down the street who thinks they're lovely fairy tales, but nothing more? I'll say it again: why take scripture seriously?

When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Did you even read the rest of the statement's I made? You're asking me a question that I've already given an answer for. If you read "everything" I stated up there, you will find what happened to it. If you would've read the entire post in the first place you wouldn't be asking me this question. :p

Sorry, I was kind of tired at the time I responded.

I'm confused. This account of creation totally contradicts what I know from Greek mythology?

Originally Posted by Nevik

Sorry, I was kind of tired at the time I responded.

No problem. Here's a complementary internet *fistbump*



And to you good Sir a fine day.

Originally Posted by Xei

I'm confused. This account of creation totally contradicts what I know from Greek mythology?

Yea, you know that one crossed my mind also. Until I came to the realization that Greek mythology wasn't written in the Queens English so I didn't think anything else of it. :p

Originally Posted by Xei

I'm confused. This account of creation totally contradicts what I know from Greek mythology?

Your Greek myths and legends are clearly false, for there is only one true God! You don't believe me? Go on, pray to Zeus and wait for an answer. It won't come, because he doesn't exist. The real God is like Zeus, but with a bigger beard. He is the only God and he definitely exists. We know this because he stays absolutely silent and doesn't get involved in anything, just like how any smart creator of the universe would be. How can you argue with such fantastic evidence?!

But of course, you don't want to hear the truth. You just want to cling to your crazy pagan beliefs and rituals. You'll never find true happiness in your life, and for that I feel sorry for you. I can only hope that what I've said will sink in and you'll eventually stop wasting your time in temples and start wasting it in churches instead.

I was joking. For those of you who don't know a joke when you see it.

Originally Posted by Heavy Sleeper

The real God is like Zeus, but with a bigger beard. He is the only God and he definitely exists. We know this because he stays absolutely silent and doesn't get involved in anything, just like how any smart creator of the universe would be. How can you argue with such fantastic evidence?!

I literally fell on the floor cracking up on this..LMAO!

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I literally fell on the floor cracking up on this..LMAO!

Originally Posted by Heavy Sleeper

Your Greek myths and legends are clearly false, for there is only one true God! You don't believe me? Go on, pray to Zeus and wait for an answer.

I once prayed to the Goddess Freyja and heard an answer. Does that mean that Christianity can fuck off now while we bring back the Norse gods?

Originally Posted by Mario92

I once prayed to the Goddess Freyja and heard an answer. Does that mean that Christianity can fuck off now while we bring back the Norse gods?

Hmmm, you make a good point. But I fail to see how the answer from your Goddess can compare to the silence from the one true God. Think about it. The answer you heard could have been someone playing a joke on you, or maybe you're going insane. Therefore we can't trust it.

Silence on the other hand, you cannot argue with. God's lack of intervention in the universe proves that he indeed exists and that his beard is big and fluffy. It's so obvious, why can't you see it?!

Originally Posted by Mario92

I once prayed to the Goddess Freyja and heard an answer. Does that mean that Christianity can fuck off now while we bring back the Norse gods?

You are clearly delusional. I've been contacted by both Bast and Isis, which proves all the above wrong.

Thor is the epitome of manliness though. Nothing like smashing stuff with a giant divine hammer.

How do christians exsplain Dinosaurs? Did they just, appear one day 4000 years ago, and then disapear off the next? WTF!

Not all christians are creationist. Please do try to keep the two separate as the weasily creationists will try to conflate them.

Originally Posted by Heavy Sleeper

Hmmm, you make a good point. But I fail to see how the answer from your Goddess can compare to the silence from the one true God. Think about it. The answer you heard could have been someone playing a joke on you, or maybe you're going insane. Therefore we can't trust it.

Silence on the other hand, you cannot argue with. God's lack of intervention in the universe proves that he indeed exists and that his beard is big and fluffy. It's so obvious, why can't you see it?!

Okay, I just prayed to Aphrodite, and she didn't say anything. Therefore, she must be the one true god, right? Love and sex for all now, I suppose.

No, that can't be. I currently channeling Pan, so while he is not certain that he is the only God, he is certain that he does exist and is a god. He tells me you should all worship with burnt offerings of the hemp plant.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Okay, I just prayed to Aphrodite, and she didn't say anything. Therefore, she must be the one true god, right? Love and sex for all now, I suppose.

While this evidence is truly remarkable, I feel that she is not the one true God. I mean come on, she's a woman. She doesn't even have a beard! But love and sex for all sounds good to me so I'll add her to the book as the mother of God's son or something. And by the way, if anyone asks, she's a virgin.

If heaven and hell do not exist, then nothing happens and we are not harmed in any way. But if
the Bible is true, then by believing in God and Jesus we can be better off after death. So my question
to you is: Why not?