Thread: So, I think Christians are stupid.

I just finished reading 1984 for the second time; I first read it when I was quite young and inexperienced.

I think politics is a lot less of an explosive issue than it was in Orwell's time (when people were turning to the extremes of both fascism and communism); back then, politics and the debating of politics was even more important than issues of religion. Nowadays the book is harder to understand in that context, I think (though not entirely).

However, having now had plenty of experience on DV of dealing with Christian fundamentalists, it was absolutely amazing how much more sense the book made from that perspective. His description of the chilling fashion in which people can perform doublethink and its related actions were hard to grasp the first time, but now I understand everything he says about it, as I have seen it first hand. Politics is less divisive nowadays, but the mental actions in the book translate flawlessly into a religious context.

I may fetch some quotes later to show what I mean.

I am a Christian and I am one because I was brought up in a Christian family, therefore I believe the teachings in the bible. It's a part of my personality I guess.
I also think that believing in God can be comforting to a lot of people and help them out with their lives, say if something went wrong.
The bible can be seen as "just a book" or it can be seen as something very important to someone that means a lot and confirms their faith to them.
It depends where you stand.

I was a catholic/christian for the majority of my life, mainly because I was just raised that way. When I got older I (as good children should) began to question the ideas and thought processes of my life, and my faith was one of them. when I asked, no one could ever give me a straight answer, so I renounced my faith, because It didn't make any logical sense.

but that's just me.

I'm not a Christian and I've never been a devout believer in a God/Gods, so I'm just guessing here. But I think people might possibly believe what they read in the Bible or similar religious scriptures simply because they want to believe it.

A few of my family members believe in God and Heaven without ever having shown any interest in whatever's written in the Bible. Most likely because they don't like the idea of ceasing to exist one day or never seeing their lost loved ones again. They also like to think that a loving God could never possibly create a thing like Hell, so choose not to believe it. But the way I see it is; why would God reward you for the good things you do if He doesn't punish the evil things you do? They pretty much read a book and take any lessons or beliefs they want from it. I think it's kinda like reading a Harry Potter book and choosing to believe in all of the spells and potions whilst claiming centaurs and all other mythical beings mentioned in the book to be fictional.

So yeah, my guess would be that they believe what they want to believe in order to comfort themselves or find some sort of meaning in a seemingly meaningless life.

Originally Posted by Yungen

I am a Christian and I am one because I was brought up in a Christian family, therefore I believe the teachings in the bible. It's a part of my personality I guess.
I also think that believing in God can be comforting to a lot of people and help them out with their lives, say if something went wrong.
The bible can be seen as "just a book" or it can be seen as something very important to someone that means a lot and confirms their faith to them.
It depends where you stand.

How does this make any sense... believing in something because it makes you comfortable because you believe it because it makes you comfortable because... and how can truth be hereditary? How can you say that without realising the absurdity?

crimestop crimestop

If you love Jesus and follow his word, why haven't you given all of your worldly possessions to greater causes? Why aren't you living a life of charity? He makes it abundantly clear that that is the only way into heaven.

You simultaneously believe in Jesus because it suits you to live forever yet don't believe in Jesus because it suits you to be comfortable in this mortal life just in case.

You're a true master of Ingsoc. 2 + 2 = ..?

Originally Posted by ClouD

I think I might be onto something.

If you are one of those that claim to be a Christian, please explain why. I don't want circular reasoning like "BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO GO TO HELL" or any reasoning that requires Christianity in the first place.

Why, with your very capable and intelligent minds, do you believe in, quite simply, just a book?

I think it is stupid to believe in a book that tells you what to do, without any real reason or reward.

Is it simply a fairytale that you choose to believe in, about heaven and hell and all these things?
I wouldn't mind if it was, as long as you acknowledged it for being one, a set of rules and stories dictating one thing or another to avoid a punishment that has never been known to happen, or a reward that has never been known to be given.

I think it is fine to think that there may be an external entity, bigger or smaller, separate from your personal self. Even for people to go so far as to believe in that. But for people to then give that unknown pseudo entity a name, a set of rules, whatever, and then to force them onto themselves and to other people...confusing as fuck. Seems like a method to control the weak-minded.

PLEASE DO EXPLAIN WHY YOU BELIEVE THIS?

If you believe, as you claim, so much in reasoning, what have you done to promote it? Why can one or more words be or not be predicated of another? How many primitive categories of names are there? Which can be defined and which cannot? What is the difference between definition and description and why are both needed in logic? etc., What do you know of these things so much that you have to spend your time agrivating someone who, as you claim, is not as bright as you are?

How many books have you read that you "believe" in that have nothing to do with "religion"? Why did the greatest logicians in the world promote religion? What does it have to do with logic? What is the purpose of reasoning and how is that purpose different than that of religion?

Every form of learning has one goal--the modification of human behavior so that that behavior maintains and promotes the life of the body. How one effects that ends is not the fault of the discipline but those who use it--just like it is not the fault of a hammer that you hit your thumb with it. The craft is not the craftsman--just like the Map is not the Territory.

I believe that if anyone knew anything of reasoning at all would surely know what it's function was, and that this function was not different from any other method of manipulating human behavior--one does not use a hammer when only a screw driver will do.

Indoctrination is a powerful thing. Period.

Ironically, though - for that same reason - I wouldn't call the faith-based "stupid." The earlier you are introduced to a thing, and the harder it is pounded into your head, the harder it is to let go of. It's a scary concept, to say the least; that giving up on faith, after a certain age, is like losing a huge sense of your identity. When religion has been so integrated in everything you know about yourself, the world, and the universe - to have something (even logic) turn that much of your world upside down is horrifying, to some.

Also, you have those who turn to religion at a later age. A friend of mine is about 18ish, right now. His girl had just had a baby at 6 months, which had to be surgically removed because the mother has a condition that what have killed her, if she carried to term. The baby was critical, in an incubator, for a few weeks, but then died. Immediately after, my friend found religion. In such cases (which are common), I believe that people just can't cope with something so devastating having no explanation. Religion gives them that explanation (or the vague illusion of one. I.e; "It is God's Will). Sometimes the truth is scarier than fiction, and the drive for closure is a very potent human emotion.

Originally Posted by Xei

How does this make any sense... believing in something because it makes you comfortable because you believe it because it makes you comfortable because...

I know exactly how you feel Xei. I remember the first time my state appointed/funded science teacher tried to explain to me how we were once monkeys.

I asked for proof and told him without it I would take no test while the teachings of this mumbo jumbo devilution were being presented. He then told me that I will either take these test or fail his class.

I love science!

Originally Posted by greenhavoc

I know exactly how you feel Xei. I remember the first time my state appointed/funded science teacher tried to explain to me how we were once monkeys.

I asked for proof and told him without it I would take no test while the teachings of this mumbo jumbo devilution were being presented. He then told me that I will either take these test or fail his class.

I love science!

Evolution has several metric tons of evidence. Religion has absolutely none. And no, we were never monkeys. We and monkeys ultimately evolved from a common ancestor, but otherwise never overlapped.

Originally Posted by Mario92

And no, we were never monkeys. We and monkeys ultimately evolved from a common ancestor, but otherwise never overlapped.

Exactamente.

I have already decided that my religous beliefs are biased and I m not content with that. In the next five years, I intend to become an internant and live going from place to place. When I do this, I will devote as much time as needed to pursue the truth. That includes research, writing out my thoughts, and having personal discusions with experts or studied people, (I realize I probably won't be able to talk to the well known ones. I don't need to. Maybe I will record it as a documentary to have a reason to talk to lesser known but well educated experts.) But the kind of knowledge that I can get from just reading books and surfing the web won't be enough to verify or disproove something so integral to my life. To remain scientific about it all I will detach myself from my beliefs and for study purposes claim no belief or disbelief. 5 years may seem like a long time to some people to believe in something you aren't sure about either way. But considering all the pain, doubt, etc. I put myself and my family through last time I denounced the faith- I am not willing to do it again as long as I feel there is a decent chance Christianity is correct. Besides, I am doing worthwhile things during these years, anyway.

I have also decided to be a Christain and given my word to God that without significant reason to leave the faith, which could only be disbelief, I won't. Even if the scientific method is to remain neutral until the research has been done and then believe if the conclusion is appropriate, rather than to believe in it and then become neutral, I guess my word and the risk of hurting my family without cause is too important to me. (I do not consider detaching myself from Christianity for study purposes as the same as denouncing it. I cannot fathom a God that expects his followers to eschew rationale, anyway.) I have seen enough evidences for Christianity and felt enough things/experiences to tie me over until then. Of course I also accept that some of these could be coincidence and others explainable. I really just don't have time for the amount of work I would need to convince myself of the religions false or truth, not right now. And I can't do little bits of study here and little bits there over the course of a few years. That is not how I operate. If my situation changes maybe I will be able to afford to do my truth search earlier, full time during one of the summers during college maybe, but probably not.

That's awesome, spockman. Good luck in your quest.

I feel like most of the people I know are religiously for three reasons: 1) Pascal's Wager, 2) their upbringing, and 3) they cannot imagine the universe existing without a creator. Taking hold of Pascal's Wager or blaming their upbringing are easily dismissible, for believing in an unproven hypothesis simply to be "safe" when the end comes or simply because you were raised a certain way seems to be absurd. Not being able to imagine the universe without a creator does have seem to have some merit since, I think, we have a hard time conceptualizing the unknown, as in, "if God didn't create the universe, what did?" There's no shame in saying "I don't know" to such a question, however. In fact I would claim that stating your ignorance is a virtue because it may lead you on the path to discovering how the world works.

Originally Posted by Yungen

I am a Christian and I am one because I was brought up in a Christian family, therefore I believe the teachings in the bible. It's a part of my personality I guess.
I also think that believing in God can be comforting to a lot of people and help them out with their lives, say if something went wrong.
The bible can be seen as "just a book" or it can be seen as something very important to someone that means a lot and confirms their faith to them.
It depends where you stand.

You, with the intelligence to recognise this from an analytical perspective, should understand that there is no "I was brought up in a Christian family, therefore I [must] believe the teachings", other than in your deliberate choice to believe so, knowing there is an alternative option. This is apparent in the way you have typed your reply, and appears contradictory to the logical reasoning you applied to others but not yourself.

Sure, beliefs can be defined as part of your personality, and I agree that it may be comforting to people, but then it clearly falls under "indulged fairytale". Which is natural, I suppose, but that doesn't make it undesirable and not-stupid, in my opinion. I do not like religion as a coping mechanism, it's a can consisting mostly of bad worms, to console traumatic thoughts/ideas, while stunting intelligence, personal growth and acceptance of others, to name a few.

Please re-assess your reasoning for your belief in it. You know you are not required to believe in it because of what you have stated, so why do you? I would like to know, so I can conclude, with you, whether it is a stupid belief.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

If you believe, as you claim, so much in reasoning, what have you done to promote it? Why can one or more words be or not be predicated of another? How many primitive categories of names are there? Which can be defined and which cannot? What is the difference between definition and description and why are both needed in logic? etc., What do you know of these things so much that you have to spend your time agrivating someone who, as you claim, is not as bright as you are?

How many books have you read that you "believe" in that have nothing to do with "religion"? Why did the greatest logicians in the world promote religion? What does it have to do with logic? What is the purpose of reasoning and how is that purpose different than that of religion?

Every form of learning has one goal--the modification of human behavior so that that behavior maintains and promotes the life of the body. How one effects that ends is not the fault of the discipline but those who use it--just like it is not the fault of a hammer that you hit your thumb with it. The craft is not the craftsman--just like the Map is not the Territory.

I believe that if anyone knew anything of reasoning at all would surely know what it's function was, and that this function was not different from any other method of manipulating human behavior--one does not use a hammer when only a screw driver will do.

I do not have so much belief in reasoning. I got a feeling of anger when I read a post which I deemed was stupid, or perhaps vice versa. I do not claim that anyone is less bright than me, I simply think/feel that Christians are stupid because of several reasons I think I have outlined. I think that most people have the potential to not have circular reasoning as their spine to support beliefs. I think that I also have that potential.

Most of your other questions are quite ambiguous to me, I could answer them in many ways, none satisfactorily to myself in thinking you probably mean something abstractly different.

I do not disagree with religiousness, depending on definition. I think that politicians have long understood the power of these ideas on the weaker (or less manipulatively?) minded. Not to say that some people aren't religious for what I consider the right reasons, just that most that I've encountered aren't.

I do not believe that there is any function to anything other than that which has limitations, and hence I consider functionality to be redundant. I know plenty of people who would use a hammer when only a screw driver would do. In fact, I am one of those people that have, when breaking into cars.

Thank you.

Christianity is about having a relationship with God a spiritual one. Perhaps you don't understand this and I don't mean to sound condescending but Christianity isn't about the Bible it's about "walking with God" and I believe that Jesus was the human manifestation of God. Being a christian isn't about belief it's about spirituality. Just because someone believes everything in the Bible that doesn't mean that they are going to go to Heaven. For all I care you could not even read the Bible and go to heaven but it's not even about going to heaven or hell it's about spiritual growth with the Father. The Bible teaches many lessons and is the literal Word of God. It is my belief that many Christians have strayed from the path of God and I know it's trite and cliche to say that but it is the truth. They are too self-involved and too judgmental of their neighbors. The fact of the matter is being christian doesn't make you better than anyone else because we all sin. It would be hypocritical to say "You're going to hell" because it is not up to you where they go when they die and going to heaven should not be one's reason for becoming Christian yet this is the message that so many follow and that churches use to manipulate. So please don't make general statements such as Christians are stupid.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Indoctrination is a powerful thing. Period.

Ironically, though - for that same reason - I wouldn't call the faith-based "stupid." The earlier you are introduced to a thing, and the harder it is pounded into your head, the harder it is to let go of. It's a scary concept, to say the least; that giving up on faith, after a certain age, is like losing a huge sense of your identity. When religion has been so integrated in everything you know about yourself, the world, and the universe - to have something (even logic) turn that much of your world upside down is horrifying, to some.

Also, you have those who turn to religion at a later age. A friend of mine is about 18ish, right now. His girl had just had a baby at 6 months, which had to be surgically removed because the mother has a condition that what have killed her, if she carried to term. The baby was critical, in an incubator, for a few weeks, but then died. Immediately after, my friend found religion. In such cases (which are common), I believe that people just can't cope with something so devastating having no explanation. Religion gives them that explanation (or the vague illusion of one. I.e; "It is God's Will). Sometimes the truth is scarier than fiction, and the drive for closure is a very potent human emotion.

I agree. I still find it very saddening that people would turn to religion as a crutch. It's not so much a terrible reason, it's just that it may, and very likely, have what I think/feel is a backing of ignorance. In that, I still do think that it is stupid.

As for indoctrination, I think it's despicable. There needs to be greater support for (imo) disillusionment from what is ignorance. If someone critically analyses and then knowingly accepts Christianity as their faith, I would still maintain that it's stupid as an unsupported faith, but not stupid in ignorance.

I know it seems harsh to push the word stupid around, but I really do feel strongly about Christian beliefs. I see enough of it in my extended family (non-Asian) to see how it affects relationships and certain acceptance.

Originally Posted by Irken

Christianity is about having a relationship with God a spiritual one. Perhaps you don't understand this and I don't mean to sound condescending but Christianity isn't about the Bible it's about "walking with God" and I believe that Jesus was the human manifestation of God. Being a christian isn't about belief it's about spirituality. Just because someone believes everything in the Bible that doesn't mean that they are going to go to Heaven. For all I care you could not even read the Bible and go to heaven but it's not even about going to heaven or hell it's about spiritual growth with the Father. The Bible teaches many lessons and is the literal Word of God. It is my belief that many Christians have strayed from the path of God and I know it's trite and cliche to say that but it is the truth. They are too self-involved and too judgmental of their neighbors. The fact of the matter is being christian doesn't make you better than anyone else because we all sin. It would be hypocritical to say "You're going to hell" because it is not up to you where they go when they die and going to heaven should not be one's reason for becoming Christian yet this is the message that so many follow and that churches use to manipulate. So please don't make general statements such as Christians are stupid.

I suppose the best questions you could ask yourself are: What evidence do you have to support such fantastical beliefs, mainly for the existence of a supernatural creator? Why do you follow the religion that you now follow?

Originally Posted by Irken

The Bible teaches many lessons and is the literal Word of God.

Many lessons such as killing those who work on the Sabbath, or homosexuals, or people who do not follow your god? How do you know it is the literal truth?

@ClouD: As much as I agree with you on things that you've said in this thread, calling Christians stupid is not conducive to advancing your argument.

Originally Posted by Irken

Christianity is about having a relationship with God a spiritual one. Perhaps you don't understand this and I don't mean to sound condescending but Christianity isn't about the Bible it's about "walking with God" and I believe that Jesus was the human manifestation of God. Being a christian isn't about belief it's about spirituality. Just because someone believes everything in the Bible that doesn't mean that they are going to go to Heaven. For all I care you could not even read the Bible and go to heaven but it's not even about going to heaven or hell it's about spiritual growth with the Father. The Bible teaches many lessons and is the literal Word of God. It is my belief that many Christians have strayed from the path of God and I know it's trite and cliche to say that but it is the truth. They are too self-involved and too judgmental of their neighbors. The fact of the matter is being christian doesn't make you better than anyone else because we all sin. It would be hypocritical to say "You're going to hell" because it is not up to you where they go when they die and going to heaven should not be one's reason for becoming Christian yet this is the message that so many follow and that churches use to manipulate. So please don't make general statements such as Christians are stupid.

Please do not try to redefine Christianity. I understand that it is as ambiguous as the preachers that follow it. My question is with the beliefs, and an attention grabbing header is to suggest people like you are stupid, without directly insulting you.

1. Please tell me why you think Jesus was the human manifestation of God, using no circular reasoning. I would also like your definition of God, as short and concise as possible, taking in mind that the definition is not the point, rather the former part of this paragraph is (ie. don't change the subject when you reply).

2. You make judgements about people's eligibility for Heaven, so I assume you believe in it. You also state Hell, but claim that both are not important. Why are they not important? From a Christian, and I assume also your perspective, they are infinite in time. That is not something without magnitude, I'm sure we can agree on. Please answer the question: Why are they not important, or at least not as important as "spiritual growth" with "the Father"?

3. Please explain what you mean by "spiritual growth". Again, question 2 is more important, please do not attempt to change the thread direction with your explanation of spiritual growth.

4. What are just a couple of lessons that the bible teaches, in your opinion? Also please tell my why you believe it is the literal word of God. Did God speak those written words? If so, why do you believe that he really did? Please explain why, that is the whole point of the thread, why you believe.

To conclude, I see no reason, as of yet, why I should not publicise my thoughts that Christians are stupid. I have not yet encountered proof enough to think otherwise.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

@ClouD: As much as I agree with you on things that you've said in this thread, calling Christians stupid is not conducive to advancing your argument.

I said I think Christians are stupid, and have backed up why. If anyone disagrees with my reasoning, please do explain why. The only argument in the thread would appear to be the "calling Christians stupid" in itself.

Originally Posted by ClouD

I said I think Christians are stupid, and have backed up why. If anyone disagrees with my reasoning, please do explain why. The only argument in the thread would appear to be the "calling Christians stupid" in itself.

I disagree with calling them stupid, as it tends to alienate the audience and the opponent. It is not so much that they themselves are stupid, as there are many brilliant scientists who happen to be Christians, but that their reasoning in evaluating their beliefs is lackluster.

We may have a different definition of stupidity, then.

I generally agree with not calling people stupid for that exact reason, but in this case it is intended, and with passion.

Originally Posted by greenhavoc

I know exactly how you feel Xei. I remember the first time my state appointed/funded science teacher tried to explain to me how we were once monkeys.

I asked for proof and told him without it I would take no test while the teachings of this mumbo jumbo devilution were being presented. He then told me that I will either take these test or fail his class.

I love science!

You're either an idiot or a troll. Either way, shut up.

Originally Posted by Xei

I just finished reading 1984 for the second time; I first read it when I was quite young and inexperienced.

I think politics is a lot less of an explosive issue than it was in Orwell's time (when people were turning to the extremes of both fascism and communism); back then, politics and the debating of politics was even more important than issues of religion. Nowadays the book is harder to understand in that context, I think (though not entirely).

However, having now had plenty of experience on DV of dealing with Christian fundamentalists, it was absolutely amazing how much more sense the book made from that perspective. His description of the chilling fashion in which people can perform doublethink and its related actions were hard to grasp the first time, but now I understand everything he says about it, as I have seen it first hand. Politics is less divisive nowadays, but the mental actions in the book translate flawlessly into a religious context.

I may fetch some quotes later to show what I mean.

Ahh, this would explain the newspeak references I saw from you in another religious thread.

Going here is opening up a huge can of worms, but I think that Orwell's ideas about doublethink, crimestop (and all sorts of thought filtering/monitoring) apply to religion more than our government. It becomes very very apparent in these threads.

Originally Posted by ClouD

We may have a different definition of stupidity, then.

I generally agree with not calling people stupid for that exact reason, but in this case it is intended, and with passion.

ClouD, I think the problem is that, when you call someone stupid, you are referring to more than just their stance on any particular issue. Remember that many of the top minds in the world (in certain areas of education/intellect) are also theists. You can disagree with someone's ideas on a particular issue, but to imply that they - themselves - are "stupid" is to assume so much more than that.

Originally Posted by ClouD

I said I think Christians are stupid, and have backed up why. If anyone disagrees with my reasoning, please do explain why. The only argument in the thread would appear to be the "calling Christians stupid" in itself.

But, what you claim to be reasoning is not. There is no relationship between intelligence and a particular secular doctrine. Fact is, You will find that for any religion, the number of people who have actually read, and much less studied, the text they claim to follow are very, very few. So, it is not reasoning at all that claims a relationship where none has ever been demonstrated, it is in fact, very irrational. A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I, myself, have never been religious, however, I have typed out the entire text into digital format-as only one of the ways I study it.