Does the subconscious really exist?

[BeeClock]

There is the conscious and the unconscious, but is there really a subconscious? What do you people think?

[Original Poster]

I think it's synonymous with unconscious. It refers to your subtle conscious, as in all you are aware of that you are not aware that you're aware of.

[DoctorEams]

You're a bit mistaken. Unconscious is simply defined as "the lack of consciousness." Really nothing more. There are two (at present) proposed types of consciousness. We have the conscious self, which is everything your aware of in your waking life. And we have the subconscious, which is an amalgamation of memories and experiences that have influenced our very being, we are simply not aware of them.

[Original Poster]

Unconscious is everything in your mind you are not aware of. I'm not going to go into a semantic debate about this, it's common knowledge in psychology.

[DoctorEams]

We're both correct, Omnis. Unconscious and subconscious can be used interchangeably for the most part. But in topics where someone is trying to make a distinction between them, then it's worth noting that the term "unconscious" has the added definitions: 1. temporarily devoid of consciousness. 2. not conscious; without awareness, sensation, or cognition. 5. not endowed with mental faculties Unconscious | Define Unconscious at Dictionary.com

[underhiswing]

DoctorEams is correct. "Sub" means beneath. "Un" means not, or the opposite of what the rest if the word is ...example unforgiven=NOT forgiven

[nina]

The term subconscious is used in many different contexts and has no single or precise definition. This greatly limits its significance as a definition-bearing concept, and in consequence the word tends to be avoided in academic and scientific settings. In everyday speech and popular writing, however, the term is very commonly encountered as a layperson's replacement for the unconscious mind, which in Freud's opinion is a repository for socially unacceptable ideas, wishes or desires, traumatic memories, and painful emotions put out of mind by the mechanism of psychological repression. However, the contents do not necessarily have to be solely negative. In the psychoanalytic view, the unconscious is a force that can only be recognized by its effects—it expresses itself in the symptom. Unconscious thoughts are not directly accessible to ordinary introspection, but are supposed to be capable of being "tapped" and "interpreted" by special methods and techniques such as meditation, random association, dream analysis, and verbal slips (commonly known as a Freudian slip), examined and conducted during psychoanalysis. Carl Jung developed the concept further. He divided the unconscious into two parts: the personal unconscious and the collective unconscious. The personal unconscious is a reservoir of material that was once conscious but has been forgotten or suppressed. Subconscious - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Darkmatters]

I'd also like to add this, about Jung's concept of the Collective Unconscious, because it seems to be where that article leaves off, and because it's a much-misunderstood concept that deserves some facetime in here: Jung, “My thesis then, is as follows: in addition to our immediate consciousness, which is of a thoroughly personal nature and which we believe to be the only empirical psyche (even if we tack on the personal unconscious as an appendix), there exists a second psychic system of a collective, universal, and impersonal nature which is identical in all individuals. This collective unconscious does not develop individually but is inherited. It consists of pre-existent forms, the archetypes, which can only become conscious secondarily and which give definite form to certain psychic contents.”. Jung linked the collective unconscious to 'what Freud called "archaic remnants" - mental forms whose presence cannot be explained by anything in the individual's own life and which seem to be aboriginal, innate, and inherited shapes of the human mind'. Archetypes and collective representations: Jung considered that 'the shadow' and the anima/animus differ from the other archetypes in the fact that their content is more directly related to the individual's personal situation'[3], and less to the collective unconscious: by contrast, 'the collective unconscious is personified as a Wise Old Man'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious

[Original Poster]

I think one point to take away from this is that etymological roots do not define the way the words are used in modern context, as both Nina's wikipedia source and Darkmatters Jungian quote have explained. While it's been made pretty clear in this thread that our society needs more definitive terms to talk about unconscious vs subconscious, we can still realize that the terms were coined by people who had a real point to make about the difference and that if we are truly interested in discussing the subject we should see what those people had to say first. That being said, my personal opinion is that sub refers to subtle, and that there are multiple levels of consciousness. The only three worth talking about here are Causal, Subtle and Material. Causal is the first root of all action, subtle is where the limitless causation battle on an imperceptible level and material is where the rubber hits the road.

[underhiswing]

All of that being said, if you are communicating with the common man (as on this forum), it would be best to use the terminology that is most commonly used by them and the current media. Deliberately talking over their heads (even though educational) usually reveals a need to elevate self, and not to deliver compassionate help for the dreamer. A truly wise man has the skills to communicate at any level and can make anybody feel comfortable and accepted.

[dakotahnok]

Well im going to answer your question with an experience. The other day I was playing a game on a hand held device for a solid hour. I was completely un aware of things going around me. But then later in the night a tv show came on. I had never seen the show before but I had a crazy case of deja vu. I knew almost every word that they were going to say. When I told my mom about it she told me that she was watching the show earlier in the same room I was in. Im pretty sure that the subconscious is real. But I find it funny that I have always believed it like it was some kind of science. Even though I never really heard that it was scientifically real.

[nina]

All of that being said, if you are communicating with the common man (as on this forum), it would be best to use the terminology that is most commonly used by them and the current media. Personally, I prefer to use the terminology that is correct, and to be informative about the usage of any incorrect terminology to the common man, so that the common man can learn instead of perpetuating the use of incorrect term or spread of misinformation. Deliberately talking over their heads (even though educational) usually reveals a need to elevate self, and not to deliver compassionate help for the dreamer. Incorrect. Deliberately being educational reveals desire to assist in other's learning, not elevate self.

[underhiswing]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion...even myself. As I said, "A truly wise man has the skills to communicate at any level and can make anybody feel comfortable and accepted."

[Dthoughts]

All of that being said, if you are communicating with the common man (as on this forum), it would be best to use the terminology that is most commonly used by them and the current media. Deliberately talking over their heads (even though educational) usually reveals a need to elevate self, and not to deliver compassionate help for the dreamer. A truly wise man has the skills to communicate at any level and can make anybody feel comfortable and accepted. I don't know why you are playing victim here. You just made a quick comment that sub means subtle and un means "not". Which is true, and someone being unconscious means to not be conscious but when people refer to unconscious material they mean stuff that are in our psyche but we are not consciously aware of. We are unconscious of our unconscious psyche. My experience with subconscious is indeed like Omnis Dei said, subtle consciousness. I.E when i tried to induce a dream scene of an assassin that's all i tried to invision, it was my subconscious that flourished it with explicit details and entire surroundings of a desert. While i tried to envision a desert assassin simply because that seemed cool to me I subconsciously envisioned the surroundings without being aware of doing it. I think one point to take away from this is that etymological roots do not define the way the words are used in modern context, as both Nina's wikipedia source and Darkmatters Jungian quote have explained. While it's been made pretty clear in this thread that our society needs more definitive terms to talk about unconscious vs subconscious, we can still realize that the terms were coined by people who had a real point to make about the difference and that if we are truly interested in discussing the subject we should see what those people had to say first. That being said, my personal opinion is that sub refers to subtle, and that there are multiple levels of consciousness. The only three worth talking about here are Causal, Subtle and Material. Causal is the first root of all action, subtle is where the limitless causation battle on an imperceptible level and material is where the rubber hits the road. Totally agree with everything you said, but what do you mean with Material consiousness in this case?

[Original Poster]

Er... switch out levels of consciousness with levels of reality and it makes more sense (even though it's all still consciousness). I'm more or less thinking about communication for this, so material communication is when you speak and someone hears you. Another way to look at it is Surface Consciousness vs Latent Consciousness.

[underhiswing]

(Dthoughts, I am not a "victim" at all (that is an odd perception). I am trumpeting the MOST common usage of those words.) If someone tells me that my husband is unconscious in the living room, I am going to find a man who is completely shut down with the exception of breathing and a heartbeat. It would be confusing and IMO inaccurate to say "my husband is subconscious in the living room. Further, He will not recall what happened during that time....ever!! If you subconsciously feel an emotion that you are not YET consciously aware of, you are still alert and fully mentally functioning, and can (especially in dreams) get in touch with/recall those thoughts/feelings that are beneath the surface (sub). The key is that they can be recalled. I have copied and pasted the following written by someone with a psychology degree. It makes perfect sense. “I have a degree in Psychology and wondered about this during my studies. Here's your answer (I hope). Unconscious is the term usually used in Psychology to refer to the thoughts we have that are 'out of reach' of our consciousness. A traumatic childhood event that we repress is an example, but it doesn't have to be so serious as this. It could be something very distant like a memory that we can't 'pull out' at our choosing. It's there, but we can't remember it no matter how hard we try. Certain psychoanalytical methods can bring back these memories (such as hypnosis) and can also be triggered by an event (a scent, a familiar place etc). The important point to remember here, is that we cannot, by choice, remember anything in our unconscious without some special event or technique. This is the unconscious. The sub-conscious is almost the same, but the very major difference is, we *can* choose to remember. Sub-conscious is used far too often (erroneously) to mean unconscious. It's simply not the case, and you'll find that in Psychology the topic of the unconscious of *far* more prevalent (and important for study) than that of the sub-conscious. The sub-conscious is for example the part of your mind that let's you remember your phone number. Before reading this, you were not conscious (thinking right now) of your phone number, but should I ask you for it, you're able to bring it to the conscious level by pulling it from your sub-conscious. The person who told you your phone number for the first time has perhaps faded from memory. It may still be in there somewhere, but it's something you can't remember (maybe), and if so, this is in your unconscious mind. So there you have it”

[Dthoughts]

Aye, sorry. I'm misinterpreting a lot lately. I like the diversity of opinions in this thread, it shows that there is a lot of room for debate on what is unconscious and subconscious.

[Darkmatters]

"A truly wise man has the skills to communicate at any level and can make anybody feel comfortable and accepted." This goes both ways. Personally I learned the clinical term (unconscious) when I started reading Freud and Jung, and so as not to confuse the issue I usually use that, but if I'm involved in a conversation with people who use subconscious then I'll just use it too. Where that causes a problem of course is when the conversation involves people who use both. But of course, on a thread where the actual definitions of the terms are in question, it's relevant to point out the true clinical definitions of the words. I think it was you who said that if someone tells you your husband is unconscious in the other room you expect to find him laying knocked out on the floor, right? So, in other words, like he's asleep? That is correct... because the unconscious is the part of the mind that operates when we're asleep and dreaming. Of course it also operates when we're awake, but like the stars in the daytime it's overpowered by the conscious mind (the sun) and is hard to notice. So, are you wise enough to communicate at the level of those of us using 'unconscious', or are you going to beat me over the head for bringing this up?

[Original Poster]

I completely agree with the point made that one should communicate at the level of the people they are speaking with. I just don't feel like person arguing this point of view was doing so. For me this comes into play a lot. It has nothing to do with their level of intelligence so much as just how they see the world. In beyond dreaming I communicate differently than in philosophy because in beyond dreaming people are looking for answers to concepts they already believe in so you may as well guide them toward better understanding within their mystical train of thought. Whereas in Philosophy everyone has a "prove it" attitude so rather than just boast my beliefs, it makes more sense to level with their concept of the world and reply with a form of logic that suits them better.

[daeryk]

There is the conscious and the unconscious, but is there really a subconscious? What do you people think? I disagree with most of the posters here. The sub-conscious is not unconscious, it's stimuli that consciously effects you without being totally are of it. Like body language or subliminal messages in advertising. The unconscious is more about functioning with a complete lack of awareness. Like having fears or sexual attraction without being fully aware of why you're afraid or aroused. The unconscious is more about automatic functioning and subconscious is more about stimuli and appeals to your instincts. Subconscious messages and stimuli surrounds us in our daily lives. Virtually ever ad is trying to subconsciously appeal to you in some manner.

[Darkmatters]

So much confusion on this subject! Ok - The Subconscious Mind is a pop-culture term for the Unconscious Mind, first described by Freud. It consists of the parts of the mind that function below the level of conscious awareness, ie, as in when you're asleep and dreaming, or those parts that take care of things that don't require conscious thought. Some people will include involuntary processes like heartbeat etc as part of it, but I think that's handled by a very basic system in the brainstem that isn't really considered part of the unconscious mind or could possibly be considered the lowest-level part of it - I'm not too sure on that one. daeryk, what you're describing here is subliminal messages included in advertising. Yes, it's aimed at the subconscious/unconsious mind, but it's not called subconscious - it's called subliminal. So many people just don't even bother to look into the actual meanings of these words and instead make up their own meanings - and then go posting them on message boards where curious people stumble onto them and believe them.

[crackers]

If you postulate consciousness, who has created this?

[daeryk]

So much confusion on this subject! Ok - The Subconscious Mind is a pop-culture term for the Unconscious Mind, first described by Freud. It consists of the parts of the mind that function below the level of conscious awareness, ie, as in when you're asleep and dreaming, or those parts that take care of things that don't require conscious thought. Some people will include involuntary processes like heartbeat etc as part of it, but I think that's handled by a very basic system in the brainstem that isn't really considered part of the unconscious mind or could possibly be considered the lowest-level part of it - I'm not too sure on that one. daeryk, what you're describing here is subliminal messages included in advertising. Yes, it's aimed at the subconscious/unconsious mind, but it's not called subconscious - it's called subliminal. So many people just don't even bother to look into the actual meanings of these words and instead make up their own meanings - and then go posting them on message boards where curious people stumble onto them and believe them. I may not have articulated myself well enough. I'm using the dictionary definitions, not Freud. The dictionary at thefreedictionary.com defines unconscious as "Occurring in the absence of conscious awareness or thought. Without conscious control; involuntary or unintended. And it defines subconscious as "Not wholly conscious; partially or imperfectly conscious." Unconscious is a state of mind that we are unaware of. Subconscious is a state of unconscious thought that has a conscious effect. So my point was that subliminal messages feed the subconscious.

[Darkmatters]

That's the definition of unconsciousness, not The Unconscious Mind. It basically means the same thing though - yes, a state we're unaware of - the one that's in control when we dream. Just like when we're "Knocked Unconscious" - the conscious mind goes offline (as it does in sleep) and the unconscious is in control. I know it's common pop parlance to use the term subconscious for the more accessible portions of the unconscious - thoughts that we've repressed or forgotten or whatever. But why would you go with common parlance when we're on a lucid dreaming site and talking about a science that was created by Freud and Jung? Why not use the actual terms they used? Wouldn't that help to dispell some of the confusion around these terms? "So my point was that subliminal messages feed the subconscious." Ok, here we're in agreement.

[lawilahd]

An example of subconscious is walking, we don't think about every step we take, rather we have learned walking and we just unconsciously do it. This goes for many everyday tasks, and in our dreams is when the unconscious mind is creating all these dream scenarios for us. The example of the heaartbeat and other internal organ functions is not subconscious but it is automatically controlled by a part of the brain called medulla oblongata (Brain stem).