Dreams vs quasi-dreams

[SarcasticIndeed]

So, this is something I noticed during my WILD-ing. What I used to call dreams might just have been non-lucid daydreams. So I'll be laying there in my bed, and over time, the chaotic thought processes hit. I'll go off on random tangents and whatever. However, something else that also happens, is I'll start entering a daydream kind of state. I sometimes just phase out and suddenly I'm somewhere else, with my friends or in a random place. I can talk to these "characters" and even influence what happens. But, if I manage to catch myself doing this (before falling asleep), everything just vanishes. Sometimes I manage to keep myself in the state to prolong this half-asleep meaningless garbage my brain puts together, but if I get completely lucid, it vanishes. This is not a dream. If I try to DEILD, I can't, even if I don't move at all. I can continue to WILD if I want and I assume that by this point I'd be close to falling asleep, but I obviously didn't go throughout the stages of falling asleep. So I ask, have you experienced these? What are they? Throughout my life, I've maybe been wrong to call them dreams, but these really don't fit, as I can experience them without my body falling asleep. But they also have many similarities. Now I also wonder if I remembered any of my actual dreams rather than these quasi-counterparts. Might also be why I've always considered my dreams hazy and not vivid. Discuss

[acatalephobic]

I have experienced this before, in fact it happened just this morning. I find it happens when I am dozing in and out, unable to completely fall asleep OR unable to sleep long enough to reach REM sleep. Today it happened between 2:30pm (the time the alarm woke me) and 3pm. Although that half hour felt outrageously long, I wasn't asleep long enough to dream, so my perception of time was altered mainly because of the in and out of consciousness I was experiencing. Like today, I am often aware of my dozing and how fragile it is in a sense, so I try to remain in this state as long as possible. Even forcing myself to keep my eyes closed when I feel compelled to open them. This determination may also be part of the reason my perception of time is altered. As far as I am aware, the only way to notice these quasi-dreams (or half-dreams as I call them) as being different from any other dream is by paying attention to the clock. With enough practice you begin to ignore the amount of hours you sleep, and instead think of your night in terms of number of sleep cycles achieved in however many hours. Without a full cycle, the chances of experiencing a legitimate dream seems very slim, if not impossible. Also if you remember vague notions/thoughts/scenarios yet have no corresponding visuals, it is likely they are not full-on dreams...but there can be exceptions to this as well. Although some of my dreams are hazy and vague, there is usually some form of visual memory related to them, however small or insignificant. Without any visuals, my mind is running on and on like it normally does, but I am not dreaming in the conventional sense. Therefore the memory of the scenario remains, and it feels similar to a dream...yet it appears that this quasi-dream state is more related to daydreaming than it is to either lucid or nonlucid dreams.

[SarcasticIndeed]

The problem with me is that now I don't know when I remembered a dream and when was I just in unconscious daydreaming. I sometimes have visuals accompanying these false dreams, but like the visuals of all the dreams I remember, they are simply vague images. As I cannot imagine with my mind's eye at all, the visuals in my dreams are horrible at best. Now, it could be that I only remember my quasi dreams and no dreams, which could explain why sometimes I experience realistic visuals in my DEILDs. In the end, I don't know. My theory is that these dreams are some form of NREM sleep dreams, perhaps light sleep? I'm not sure. Or, it could simply be.. the mind falling asleep. The body falling asleep causes us to feel all weird sorts of effects, why wouldn't the mind falling asleep do the same? You only get aware of them if you catch yourself before you fall asleep or get woken up during light sleep, it seems.

[Sageous]

What you are experiencing, I think, are a thing that have been called (by folks like LaBerge) dreamlets. Dreamlets are neither dreams or waking thoughts, but something that hovers in between those states while you (especially during WILD) straddle the fence between wake and sleep. I get them all the time, and, as they are normally forgotten as quickly as they occur, dreamlets are probably more common than you might think. They are definitely not dreams, and are certainly something you can experience while still feeling the presence of your body (because of the whole fence thing). The downsiide of all this is, as far as I can tell to date, there isn't much that you can do with these dreamlets, beyond acknowledging their presence and taking their presence as a harbinger of actual dreams to come. Dreamlets hover too close to waking life to be useful for dream incubation, yet stray too far from conscious perception to be useful for visualiztion. In a nutshell, they have no value. Also, SarcastiIndeed, be assured that dreamlets have nothing to do with NREM, and lots to do with the state all WILDers navigate as they cross the bridge from wake to sleep. Indeed, as NREM occurs well after you have fully fallen asleep, any NREM event will have a much different feeling to it (think: void). They have more to do with the resetting of bodily systems and chemicals as you fal asleep than wih anything terribly impressive. tl;dr: These things have been called dreamlets, and they occur as you consciously wander the fence between wake and sleep. Sadly, they have no real value for LD'ing.

[Wolfdog]

If anything it could get you to sleep easier. Usually, the more attention I put to this dreamy state the easier it is for me to lose consciousness and fall asleep. Following that train of thought, isn't the purpose of a WILD to incubate any sensory stimulus long enough for it to become a solid dream and successfully transition into it fully lucid? What's the difference between a dreamlet and the state of hypnagogia one traditionally experiences before a WILD? Aren't they the same? I noticed that if I let the sensory stimulus of the daydream guide me I end up getting absorbed into it, to the point where I might lose reality for a second and be devoted completely to it. The challenge is that this state easily breaks as soon as I direct my awareness to it. I don't know, perhaps I hadn't incubated a dream long enough for it to remain stable?

[Nfri]

I experience this every time I'm falling asleep. It seems like actual dreams without vividness. In this thread http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...in-method.html I maybe wrongly named it Hypnagogic Imagery HI. Sageous, this explain why you said that it's irrelevant to wait for HI. I didn't mean HI but this state that you elegantly called dreamlets. I think this is REM like state which purpose is to steal your consciousness and make you fall asleep. Last night I tried to focus and be lucid in these dreamlets but it let to wake me up few minutes later. It's exciting that I'm able to measure these dreamlets by EEG ZEO device. This is picture shows entering these dreamlets and exiting them. It's from experimentation last night on the beginning of sleep. zeo dreamlets.png Why are dreamlets ilustrated as REM? I think because they are very similar to REM in the brain activity.

[SarcasticIndeed]

What you are experiencing, I think, are a thing that have been called (by folks like LaBerge) dreamlets. Dreamlets are neither dreams or waking thoughts, but something that hovers in between those states while you (especially during WILD) straddle the fence between wake and sleep. I get them all the time, and, as they are normally forgotten as quickly as they occur, dreamlets are probably more common than you might think. They are definitely not dreams, and are certainly something you can experience while still feeling the presence of your body (because of the whole fence thing). The downsiide of all this is, as far as I can tell to date, there isn't much that you can do with these dreamlets, beyond acknowledging their presence and taking their presence as a harbinger of actual dreams to come. Dreamlets hover too close to waking life to be useful for dream incubation, yet stray too far from conscious perception to be useful for visualiztion. In a nutshell, they have no value. Also, SarcastiIndeed, be assured that dreamlets have nothing to do with NREM, and lots to do with the state all WILDers navigate as they cross the bridge from wake to sleep. Indeed, as NREM occurs well after you have fully fallen asleep, any NREM event will have a much different feeling to it (think: void). They have more to do with the resetting of bodily systems and chemicals as you fal asleep than wih anything terribly impressive. tl;dr: These things have been called dreamlets, and they occur as you consciously wander the fence between wake and sleep. Sadly, they have no real value for LD'ing. Interesting. Have seen the term thrown around but didn't know if it was related to what I was experiencing. The weird thing about these dreamlets is that to me, a dude whose dreams are really unimpressive when it comes to their visuals and everything else, are as vivid as most of my dreams. Sometimes in these dreamlets I'll have sense of movement which, that I remember, has never happened in a dream If anything it could get you to sleep easier. Usually, the more attention I put to this dreamy state the easier it is for me to lose consciousness and fall asleep. Following that train of thought, isn't the purpose of a WILD to incubate any sensory stimulus long enough for it to become a solid dream and successfully transition into it fully lucid? What's the difference between a dreamlet and the state of hypnagogia one traditionally experiences before a WILD? Aren't they the same? I noticed that if I let the sensory stimulus of the daydream guide me I end up getting absorbed into it, to the point where I might lose reality for a second and be devoted completely to it. The challenge is that this state easily breaks as soon as I direct my awareness to it. I don't know, perhaps I hadn't incubated a dream long enough for it to remain stable? HI is different to dreamlets. Dreamlets is your mind hopelessly falling asleep if you don't manage to keep self awareness it seems, HI is a bunch of sensual perceptions we experience upon transitioning to a sleeping state. I experience this every time I'm falling asleep. It seems like actual dreams without vividness. In this thread http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...in-method.html I maybe wrongly named it Hypnagogic Imagery HI. Sageous, this explain why you said that it's irrelevant to wait for HI. I didn't mean HI but this state that you elegantly called dreamlets. I think this is REM like state which purpose is to steal your consciousness and make you fall asleep. Last night I tried to focus and be lucid in these dreamlets but it let to wake me up few minutes later. It's exciting that I'm able to measure these dreamlets by EEG ZEO device. This is picture shows entering these dreamlets and exiting them. It's from experimentation last night on the beginning of sleep. zeo dreamlets.png Why are dreamlets ilustrated as REM? I think because they are very similar to REM in the brain activity. That's really interesting! They count as REM yet they don't really fit the definition of a dream. I've found that getting lucid in dreamlets means going out of the dreamlet itself. It's nothing like one of my DEILD experiences where I am taken somewhere after I transition into the dream. If I find out I am "dreamleting", the dreamlet ends.

[Nfri]

If I find out I am "dreamleting", the dreamlet ends. This is my recent problem with wilding... I hope it's matter of handling the balance. Because few times I did wild by lucid dreamleting.

[Wolfdog]

HI is different to dreamlets. Dreamlets is your mind hopelessly falling asleep if you don't manage to keep self awareness it seems, HI is a bunch of sensual perceptions we experience upon transitioning to a sleeping state. I really don't see the difference. I mean, both are sensory stimuli, both feel incredibly vivid when given sufficient time and attention to develop. Also, I don't see what's hopeless about it, I actually feel more hopeful about the whole thing, and it even helps me to get to sleep faster. So, not sure if my description follows what a dreamlet is supposed to be, or if I'm talking about something else entirely. But to me both instances appear very similar if not identical.

[AnotherDreamer]

The downsiide of all this is, as far as I can tell to date, there isn't much that you can do with these dreamlets, beyond acknowledging their presence and taking their presence as a harbinger of actual dreams to come. Dreamlets hover too close to waking life to be useful for dream incubation, yet stray too far from conscious perception to be useful for visualization. In a nutshell, they have no value. I don't agree that they have no value, I think they can be a fascinating aspect of dreams to experiment with. I think we can find some value in just about anything if we pay it enough attention. However, there probably hasn't been as much attention given to dreamlets as full on lucid dreams. Recently I have noticed that my dreamlets start with songs that I've never heard before and there is a new song in each individual dreamlet. I find that in itself to be quite intriguing, but I also remember the songs in vivid detail when I jolt back into a wakeful state. I think that's really cool, especially since I can't seem to remember songs that I create during lucid dreams that well at all. I'm also particularly struck by how creative the dreamlets themselves can be and how realistic my senses are in them. I have also had a couple of experiences with ~Dreamer~, where she has guided my dreamlets over a Skype call. She helped narrate my dreams and I was able to live out her narration as she did so. I could feel what she wanted me to feel, hear what she wanted me to hear, and see what she wanted me to see. I could contribute as well and we could form a dream experience together. It was interesting to feel like I was actually sharing a dream with someone. I could also tell her what I had been experiencing when I returned between dreamlets, and she was able to record them for me. So yea! I think that dreamlets totally have value.

[Sageous]

^^ Okay, okay, dreamlets have value. I'll still hold to the notion that dreamlets are little more than noise on the path to an actual WILD, but yes, though they might not have much value on that path, dreamlets certainly must have potential for creativity and adventure -- after all, they are there, right? They must be good for something. First, I just reread my post, and I must have been in a foul mood when I wrote it. Why? Because dreamlets by themselves are very cool, and should not be dismissed; and, if your imagination is sound and your patience solid, you can form LD's, when dreamtime actually comes, not only from their specific imagery but also from the places their imagery leads your imagination. Your account of your experience with ~Dreamer~ reminds me of some fun I had with dreamlets a long, long time ago. When in high school I was dating a girl whose little sister tended to share her dreamlets by talking in her sleep. So, on one particular long car trip we were on, my girlfriend and I passed the time by whispering a story to her little sister as she slept, and watching with glee as her mind formed dreamlets in response, almost on cue. I guess it wasn't very nice (though kid sister actually liked the attention after we told her about it), but it was a curious experience, and definitely gave me some exposure to the power of dreaming!

[ThreeCat]

after all, they are there, right? They must be good for something. Biggest LOL all day. Thanks, Sageous. I thought it was odd to see you calling anything about dreaming worthless--especially those cute little dreamlets! I think we should all re-explore the world of lucid dreamlet-ing! I'm done.