Thread: Should pedophiles use lucid dreaming to live out their fantasies?

Originally Posted by apsinvo

I vote no. Can we agree that 'pedophilia' is 'negative craving/addictive behavior'?

Nope. It's an orientation.

It shouldn't be lived out in the dream, or should I say 'indulged' in the dream - this will only increase desensitization and further unconscious cravings for gratification.

Just like playing violent video games desensitizes people to real violence and increases the unconscious craving for bloodlust? Oh my mistake, that doesn't actually happen.

The question is the same as asking, is it OK for a pedophile to sit at home watching 2 hours of kiddie porn every night, in perfect 3d all-immersing-experience home cinema, as long as he's not out on the street affecting kids?

If it's real kiddie porn, then no. Kids were harmed in the making of it. But if we're talking like cartoons or computer animations that don't use kids at all, I don't have a problem with that.

No, because the next morning, pedophilia will seem 'a bit less wrong' to him.

Just like how watching a violent movie makes you want to murder all your neighbors. Oh wait, that doesn't happen either.

Getting stuck in LDs with some kind of addition is just as bad in LDs as it is in RL - arguably worse, and will lead you further down the path of greed and misery. There's never enough. The only option is to use dreaming as a way up and out, not down!

This argument is built on flawed premises and bad reasoning. Should you ban all vices in dreams? How about the person who tries some dream drugs because they don't want to fuck up their bodies with the real deal but still want to trip out? Or how about a person who enjoys blackjack but not going broke? Dreams are a safe environment detached from reality where a person is free to indulge themselves however they see fit. It does no harm to dream of murdering or raping or gambling or whatever. It's a dream. Any sane person with the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality will be unaffected by them. At most, it'll just encourage them to dream more. It's quite obviously the path of least resistance, and a seasoned dreamer can achieve dreams that meet or exceed reality.

I've had many absolutely amazing, 'wow' lucid dreams. The first time I flew and had good control over it for example was incredible - I also had perfect memory of the entire 2 minute LD. As I walked through the mall the next day, I kept smiling with ever such a strong urge to try and push up with my left foot and fly as I had in the LD - fortunately I didn't try! I even felt completely different, floaty and light, and have believed that it was entirely possible to just fly there and then. Does anyone really want a guy walking through the mall who just spent an hour early that morning in a dream molesting children? I can only imagine the dreamer's uncontrollable urge to continue what had been absolutely acceptable and without any consequence in the dream.

The last vivid dream I had consisted of slaughtering a couple thousand people with a chain saw. I had no urge whatsoever to go to the local mall and begin decapitating people. Know why? Because it was a fucking dream! How does this compare? So YOU felt a slight urge to begin flying. So what? That automatically means any pedophile who dreams of shagging kids will instantly become a serial child molester? No. It's fucking ridiculous.

I agree with Mario92 on this one, on the condition that the pedophile is mentally stable. This goes for any type of fantasy that would be considered immoral in real life.

Just like how watching a violent movie makes you want to murder all your neighbors. Oh wait, that doesn't happen either.

That analogy might work if it wasn't for the fact that most people who play violent video games dont do it to satisfy a desire to kill people. Infact most people who play violent video games dont have a desire to kill at all.

I guess you could ask if its a good idea for someone, fascinated with killing and with a suppressed desire to kill people, to indulge in this fantasy by watching snuff movies and slaughtering people in their dreams? Maybe it wont push them into committing a crime but id argue that its most probably unhealthy for them.

Originally Posted by RooJ

I guess you could ask if its a good idea for someone, fascinated with killing and with a suppressed desire to kill people, to indulge in this fantasy by watching snuff movies and slaughtering people in their dreams? Maybe it wont push them into committing a crime but id argue that its most probably unhealthy for them.

I'd argue that indulging in this type of fantasy in lucid dreams would help to alleviate the suppressed desire in the individual. If they could do this in their dreams, they wouldn't have to suppress the desire anymore, and would therefore be more in control of it. So the individual might be able to benefit from killing people in lucid dreams. However of course this probably wouldn't hold true for people with psychosis.

I'd argue that indulging in this type of fantasy in lucid dreams would help to alleviate the suppressed desire in the individual.

Having an outlet for the desire wont necessarily alleviate it. I dont think Indulging in the fantasy on any level is a good idea in the case of pedophilia.

I probably could have worded that better. What I meant was that having an outlet would help the individual cope in terms of having to suppress the desire. If they are able to fulfill their desires in their lucid dreams, then they wouldn't have as much of a problem of suppressing the actions in real life.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Right. Controlling what people think about. Controlling a perfectly harmless action. Never has there been a victim for someone thinking.

It is harmless to the point until it starts feeding your desires to try it out in real life. Thinking itself is harmless, but thinking can lead to wishing, and wishing can lead to plotting.

Let's flip it around a minute. Pretend YOU'RE the minority, and you have people telling you not to have sexual fantasies about grown people of whatever sex you're attracted to, and that your attraction is just a disease that can be cured.

I have nothing against homosexuals (for example) who have intercourse with consenting adults, as long as they do not try to force their lifestyle onto others. Pedophiles however, are not in the same category as homosexuals.

Riiiiiiight. Have read it, looked up the cases, and lucid dreaming was not the sole factor. It was a part of the treatment, not the cure. You sir, overestimate the power of dreams.

You can "riiiight" all you want, but you do not know what you are talking about. You are underestimating the power of LUCID dreaming, not regular dreaming. People have been able to cure phobias, as I am one of those people who have done it. No other treatment except "intelligent" lucid dreaming.

And that's the nice thing about dreaming. It isn't abuse/rape, it's a loving relationship that cannot exist in reality. Find me the harm in having a fantasy, and you may yet make a point. Otherwise, you only show your desire to bend people to your arbitrary whims.

I never said there is harm in having a fantasy, but the question is, who guarantees it will only remain a fantasy? Do you really think all the pedophiles in the world just started to abuse children without having any fantasies prior to these acts? What happens if the "lucid pedophile" starts getting more and more into it, and wishing every night to rape a kid in his lucid dream? He forms an addiction, and it's "OK" as long as it's a fantasy, but what if he starts having a dry spell with lucid dreams? What if he starts having insomnia and gets cut off from his pedo-dream-world for a longer period?

If he is mentally stable nothing bad should happen, but what if he isn't?

I am "bending people to my arbitrary whims" because I do not encourage pedophilic fantasies? Perhaps I am having this discussion right now with someone who has such fantasies themselves. Answer this question please:

Would you let a man who on regular basis has intercourse with children in his dreams babysit your kid?

Originally Posted by MindGames

I probably could have worded that better. What I meant was that having an outlet would help the individual cope in terms of having to suppress the desire. If they are able to fulfill their desires in their lucid dreams, then they wouldn't have as much of a problem of suppressing the actions in real life.

I understand your argument but my current view is that having sex with children in lucid dreams would be a means of indulging in the fantasy, keeping the mind focussed on it. Pleasure rewards obtained while thinking about sex with children would act to condition the brain. It can only reinforce the view of children being a means for sexual satisfaction.

As has been mentioned, in many cases of child molestation that Ive heard of (and probably most) a pedophile would have other means of satisfying the urge in the beginning, be it child porn or fantasy etc. The problem is that you're actively encouraging the brain to trigger arousal around kids by fantasizing like that. Why do that to yourself? Now next time you're around a child at bath time you have to work twice as hard to fight arousal because your brain automatically assumes it's getting some action.

Pedophiles should work towards tackling their desires, not finding a way to indulge in them.

Originally Posted by Jakob

It is harmless to the point until it starts feeding your desires to try it out in real life. Thinking itself is harmless, but thinking can lead to wishing, and wishing can lead to plotting.

Ah, been a while since I've seen a good old slippery slope fallacy. In short, you're wrong.

I have nothing against homosexuals (for example) who have intercourse with consenting adults, as long as they do not try to force their lifestyle onto others. Pedophiles however, are not in the same category as homosexuals.

I'm talking about imagining that the world is composed mainly of pedophiles, and you're in the minority.

You can "riiiight" all you want, but you do not know what you are talking about. You are underestimating the power of LUCID dreaming, not regular dreaming. People have been able to cure phobias, as I am one of those people who have done it. No other treatment except "intelligent" lucid dreaming.

Look up the cases, mate.

I never said there is harm in having a fantasy, but the question is, who guarantees it will only remain a fantasy? Do you really think all the pedophiles in the world just started to abuse children without having any fantasies prior to these acts? What happens if the "lucid pedophile" starts getting more and more into it, and wishing every night to rape a kid in his lucid dream? He forms an addiction, and it's "OK" as long as it's a fantasy, but what if he starts having a dry spell with lucid dreams? What if he starts having insomnia and gets cut off from his pedo-dream-world for a longer period?

More slippery slope.

Alright, I know more than a few people who do nothing in dreams but kill and fight and slaughter the masses. In waking life, they are healthy, normal individuals who express no desire to actually kill people. There is a massive jump from wanting to do something in an environment virtually free of consequences to doing something in an environment constructed entirely of consequences. Are the people who are "addicted" to killing in dreams going to suddenly become murderers in real life if cut off? Hell no. It's a stupid argument that falls apart if examined for more than three seconds.

If he is mentally stable nothing bad should happen, but what if he isn't?

Then he's in the same boat as everyone else unable to distinguish fantasy from reality: they are a threat to public safety and should be institutionalized along with all the other mentally insane. You can't argue here that dreaming plays a greater role in insane pedophiles than it does insane rapists or serial killers. It's an entirely different class of people.

I am "bending people to my arbitrary whims" because I do not encourage pedophilic fantasies? Perhaps I am having this discussion right now with someone who has such fantasies themselves. Answer this question please:

I'm sick of seeing pedos come under constant fire from the massively ignorant. I know several, and they are decent people. They wouldn't even think about hurting a kid in real life. I also know a few people into rape play, BDSM, incest, and some other interesting things that don't get me off, and I will defend their rights to dream as they wish to the hilt.

Would you let a man who on regular basis has intercourse with children in his dreams babysit your kid?

If he is not a sex offender, sure. I wouldn't even know what his dreams are. It's quite frankly none of my goddamn business.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Nope. It's an orientation.



Just like playing violent video games desensitizes people to real violence and increases the unconscious craving for bloodlust? Oh my mistake, that doesn't actually happen.



If it's real kiddie porn, then no. Kids were harmed in the making of it. But if we're talking like cartoons or computer animations that don't use kids at all, I don't have a problem with that.



Just like how watching a violent movie makes you want to murder all your neighbors. Oh wait, that doesn't happen either.



This argument is built on flawed premises and bad reasoning. Should you ban all vices in dreams? How about the person who tries some dream drugs because they don't want to fuck up their bodies with the real deal but still want to trip out? Or how about a person who enjoys blackjack but not going broke? Dreams are a safe environment detached from reality where a person is free to indulge themselves however they see fit. It does no harm to dream of murdering or raping or gambling or whatever. It's a dream. Any sane person with the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality will be unaffected by them. At most, it'll just encourage them to dream more. It's quite obviously the path of least resistance, and a seasoned dreamer can achieve dreams that meet or exceed reality.



The last vivid dream I had consisted of slaughtering a couple thousand people with a chain saw. I had no urge whatsoever to go to the local mall and begin decapitating people. Know why? Because it was a fucking dream! How does this compare? So YOU felt a slight urge to begin flying. So what? That automatically means any pedophile who dreams of shagging kids will instantly become a serial child molester? No. It's fucking ridiculous.

Fully agree. Well said.

Ideally, people should be able to dream about whatever the hell they want. Thankfully we live in a society where there aren't any "dream police." If dreaming about something leads to enacting it in real life, as Jakob suggested, then I'm in trouble. I've done stuff much worse than mere pedophilia, in my dreams. In fact there's a theory that people live out their most primal and hidden desires in dreams, and the reason they're so hard to recall is because remembering the heinous things would traumatize the person experiencing them.

I actually encourage pedos to fulfill their fantasies in the comfort and security of their own dreams, it's really none of my business. I'm sure pedos have the ability to restrain themselves just like any ordinary person. I'm sure all of us have had illegal sexual desires at some point in our lives that we never acted upon.

Originally Posted by Apsinvo

I vote no. Can we agree that 'pedophilia' is 'negative craving/addictive behavior'?

Originally Posted by Mario92

Nope. It's an orientation.

This is a whole debate in itself, I don't think it can be summed up in a blunt statement like that. Although I do agree with most everything else you said.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Ah, been a while since I've seen a good old slippery slope fallacy. In short, you're wrong.

Nonsense. As I said, I have nothing about fantasies as long they remain fantasies. But with unstable/disturbed/aggressive individuals I don't see how feeding them with real-life "simulations" of having sex with children can lead to anything other than feeding the desires.

I'm talking about imagining that the world is composed mainly of pedophiles, and you're in the minority.

You wanted to portray me as intolerant person, and I gave you homosexuality as a perfect example that I am completely tolerant to people with other sexual orientations. Pedophilia on the other hand is something else, and you simply cannot put the two in the same basket, claiming it is "just an orientation." According to Mayo Clinic, 95% of child sexual abuse incidents are commited by those who meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia. These victims are age 12 and younger. You my friend, do not know what you are talking about.

Look up the cases, mate.

Why? I have cured a major phobia through lucid dreaming, and this is evidence enough for me that it is completely possible.

More slippery slope.

Alright, I know more than a few people who do nothing in dreams but kill and fight and slaughter the masses. In waking life, they are healthy, normal individuals who express no desire to actually kill people. There is a massive jump from wanting to do something in an environment virtually free of consequences to doing something in an environment constructed entirely of consequences. Are the people who are "addicted" to killing in dreams going to suddenly become murderers in real life if cut off? Hell no. It's a stupid argument that falls apart if examined for more than three seconds.

Ah, but shapeshifting into an alien and shooting people up in dreams is not the same as being a pedophile - a person with a strong desire to have sex with children. This is a dangerous deviance, and not just an orientation as you so lightly put it. If what I cited above (that 95% of sexual abuse incidents are by pedophiles) means nothing to you, then I cannot help you.

Then he's in the same boat as everyone else unable to distinguish fantasy from reality: they are a threat to public safety and should be institutionalized along with all the other mentally insane. You can't argue here that dreaming plays a greater role in insane pedophiles than it does insane rapists or serial killers. It's an entirely different class of people.

Nonsense. It is not an entirely different class of people because of what I cited above. It is just one example among many, and here is another one for you:

Pedophilic child molesters commit ten times more sexual acts against children than non-pedophilic child molesters. (Mayo Clinic)

I'm sick of seeing pedos come under constant fire from the massively ignorant. I know several, and they are decent people. They wouldn't even think about hurting a kid in real life.

Please don't twist what I said. Among pedophiles are also decent people, and I have never denied that. They control their desires as much as they can, and would never attempt to abuse a child. The question is are the majority of pedophiles decent people, statistically speaking? The answer is no, according to hundreds of studies and statistics.

I also know a few people into rape play, BDSM, incest, and some other interesting things that don't get me off, and I will defend their rights to dream as they wish to the hilt.

Complete sidestep.

Rape play - Harmless, between two consenting adults.
BDSM - Harmless as well.
Incest - I don't encourage it, but if people want to do it, it's ok, unless they force their family members to have sex with them.

If he is not a sex offender, sure.

Oh please. You have just lost all credibility you may have had.

I wouldn't even know what his dreams are. It's quite frankly none of my goddamn business.

But the question is if you knew what his dreams are, would you allow it? You are full of it.

Why would you even think about this?

Originally Posted by Raphael

If dreaming about something leads to enacting it in real life, as Jakob suggested, then I'm in trouble. I've done stuff much worse than mere pedophilia, in my dreams.

You seem to have misunderstood me. If I have a desire to rob a bank in my dream, then I have a desire to rob a bank in my dream - period. NOT in real life.

Pedophiles do not just have a desire to have sex with children in a dream. They have a desire to have sex with children in reality, and statistically they are much more likely than others to commit a sexual offense. Please read what I cited in my last post above.

There is a big difference. Some of them are decent individuals who control themselves, but the majority are not, and despire what Mario92 says, I very much doubt he would leave his child alone with a pedophile. If he really would, then he is either a complete idiot, or a pedophile himself. I don't see another explanation.

These two quotes conflict with each other:

Originally Posted by Jakob

You seem to have misunderstood me. If I have a desire to rob a bank in my dream, then I have a desire to rob a bank in my dream - period. NOT in real life.

Originally Posted by Jakob

It is harmless to the point until it starts feeding your desires to try it out in real life. Thinking itself is harmless, but thinking can lead to wishing, and wishing can lead to plotting.

If you are going by the logic that dream desires are independent from real life desires, then be consistent. Don't turn around and say pedophiles are on a separate plane from bank robbers. If you have the desire to rob a bank in real life, are you going to wake up and start planning a bank robbery? You will say, "of course not, it's only a dream desire." But then I can say the same thing about pedophile's dream desires. You're saying that by having lucid dreams about pedophilia, the pedo's desire is going to become even more intense to a point where he/she will start plotting. That is speculation based on zero facts. You cannot prove statistically that pedophiles who lucid dream about pedophilia are more likely to act upon these desires in real life, and that's what this discussion is really about.

Originally Posted by Jakob

Nonsense. As I said, I have nothing about fantasies as long they remain fantasies. But with unstable/disturbed/aggressive individuals I don't see how feeding them with real-life "simulations" of having sex with children can lead to anything other than feeding the desires.

so, all pedophiles are automatically unstable/aggressive/disturbed? I was under the impression they had a different sexual attraction than you.

You wanted to portray me as intolerant person, and I gave you homosexuality as a perfect example that I am completely tolerant to people with other sexual orientations. Pedophilia on the other hand is something else, and you simply cannot put the two in the same basket, claiming it is "just an orientation." According to Mayo Clinic, 95% of child sexual abuse incidents are commited by those who meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia. These victims are age 12 and younger. You my friend, do not know what you are talking about.

That's nice. Now how about a statistic that compares the number of pedophiles who do nothing to the number of pedos who actually molest children. I'm sure you'll find the results surprising.

Why? I have cured a major phobia through lucid dreaming, and this is evidence enough for me that it is completely possible.

Oh do tell. What did you cure yourself of? How bad was it to start with? How bad is it to this day?

Ah, but shapeshifting into an alien and shooting people up in dreams is not the same as being a pedophile - a person with a strong desire to have sex with children. This is a dangerous deviance, and not just an orientation as you so lightly put it. If what I cited above (that 95% of sexual abuse incidents are by pedophiles) means nothing to you, then I cannot help you.

You seem to be confusing your statistics. If there are, for the sake of argument, 1 million pedos in America right now, and 950 molest children out of 1000 cases per year (for the sake of argument), you can't say that all pedos are bad or deviants. Your statistic means absolutely nothing. At that rate, only .095% of pedophiles are a problem.

Nonsense. It is not an entirely different class of people because of what I cited above. It is just one example among many, and here is another one for you:

Insane people are unable to distinguish fantasy from reality. They are unable to determine the consequences of their actions. The vast majority of pedophiles are not insane.

Pedophilic child molesters commit ten times more sexual acts against children than non-pedophilic child molesters. (Mayo Clinic)

Oh you mean that .095% figure. So they molest children, eh? Wow, didn't see that one coming. How about the other 99.905% of the pedophile population that does absolutely nothing wrong?

Please don't twist what I said. Among pedophiles are also decent people, and I have never denied that. They control their desires as much as they can, and would never attempt to abuse a child. The question is are the majority of pedophiles decent people, statistically speaking? The answer is no, according to hundreds of studies and statistics.

Please take a statistics class before drawing such terribly wrong conclusions.

Complete sidestep.

Rape play - Harmless, between two consenting adults.
BDSM - Harmless as well.
Incest - I don't encourage it, but if people want to do it, it's ok, unless they force their family members to have sex with them.

Your argument is positioned on what appears to be two main factors:
1. the fallacious notion that having pedophilic dreams will cause them to happen in reality
2. that it's icky.

So now, if we can strike #2 off the list, you've still got the fallacious notion that dreaming of it causes it to happen. Now, I honestly have a desire to rob a bank, both in reality and in the dream land. But no matter how much I dream of it, I won't rob a real bank. Why? Because doing so has consequences. It would be far from my best interest to actually engage in that activity. No matter how consumed I am with the notion, no matter how well I plan it out, I'm not going to act. Spending the rest of my life in jail is not worth the 5-minute thrill of robbing a bank. I know this, and every sane person knows this.

Oh please. You have just lost all credibility you may have had.

Ooh, nice ad hoc.

But the question is if you knew what his dreams are, would you allow it? You are full of it.

Let's assume he's a professional babysitter. Been doing this for ages. No problems whatsoever. Why would he suddenly rape my child? He's got a job he can enjoy without going to prison, a steady income, and he's not a complete fucking looney. As far as I'm concerned, he's harmless.

Originally Posted by Mario92

so, all pedophiles are automatically unstable/aggressive/disturbed?

All of them are disturbed, obviously, or else they wouldn't want to have sex with kids. About the other characteristics, here is an example: Travelling to Thailand to have sex with a few month old baby (read about it) is an aggressive/disturbing/unstable/insane/disgusting act. Whoever disagrees with this needs to get his head checked.

I was under the impression they had a different sexual attraction than you.

They do..... but they also have a very strong desire to carry it out.

“Research shows pedophiles have a high rate of repeat offenses – with study statistics varying between 65 and 80 percent.” http://www.summitdaily.com/apps/pbcs...=2003305080103

That's nice. Now how about a statistic that compares the number of pedophiles who do nothing to the number of pedos who actually molest children. I'm sure you'll find the results surprising.

The information I have cited is enough evidence that most pedophiles are individuals that are not to be trusted, and that they should be treated as dangerous people. Here is another gem for you:

“The average pedophile will victimize 244 children in their lifetime, according to the Massachusetts Children’s Trust Fund, a child advocacy group working to prevent child abuse and neglect.” http://www.aninchfrommurder.com/blog...ge_follows.php

Oh do tell. What did you cure yourself of? How bad was it to start with? How bad is it to this day?

You will dismiss whatever I tell you, so my answer to that particular question is useless in this discussion.

You seem to be confusing your statistics. If there are, for the sake of argument, 1 million pedos in America right now, and 950 molest children out of 1000 cases per year (for the sake of argument), you can't say that all pedos are bad or deviants. Your statistic means absolutely nothing. At that rate, only .095% of pedophiles are a problem.

LOL, show me REAL statistics please, as I have shown you. Words mean nothing. I say pedophiles are dangerous, and I backed it up. Now prove me wrong.

And it's funny how you automatically assume that every molestation that occurs is documented. There are children keep these things in themselves for many years, sometimes never speaking out about it. Some children tell someone immediately, and others wait many years until they speak out. I have shown enough evidence that they are not to be trusted. You have shown absolutely nothing except a strong desire to defend them.

You have no case.

Insane people are unable to distinguish fantasy from reality. They are unable to determine the consequences of their actions. The vast majority of pedophiles are not insane.

Tell that to a father's face who's little daughter was raped by a pedo. I'd pay to see that.

Oh you mean that .095% figure. So they molest children, eh? Wow, didn't see that one coming. How about the other 99.905% of the pedophile population that does absolutely nothing wrong?

Please take a statistics class before drawing such terribly wrong conclusions.

What in the world are you babbling about? Statistics show that they are not to be trusted.

Your argument is positioned on what appears to be two main factors:
1. the fallacious notion that having pedophilic dreams will cause them to happen in reality
2. that it's icky.

So now, if we can strike #2 off the list, you've still got the fallacious notion that dreaming of it causes it to happen. Now, I honestly have a desire to rob a bank, both in reality and in the dream land. But no matter how much I dream of it, I won't rob a real bank. Why? Because doing so has consequences. It would be far from my best interest to actually engage in that activity. No matter how consumed I am with the notion, no matter how well I plan it out, I'm not going to act. Spending the rest of my life in jail is not worth the 5-minute thrill of robbing a bank. I know this, and every sane person knows this.

Once you start off wrong, nothing right will follow. My argument was to use lucid dreaming as a treatment for pedophilia instead of using lucid dreaming to feed pedophilic fantasies with more pedophilic fantasies.

A 1994 National Institute of Health survey of 453 pedophiles, conducted by Dr. Gene Abel, showed these criminals were collectively responsible for the molestation of over 67,000 children. That’s an average of 148 children per individual pedophile.

Ooh, nice ad hoc.

It was just a conclusion.

Let's assume he's a professional babysitter. Been doing this for ages. No problems whatsoever. Why would he suddenly rape my child? He's got a job he can enjoy without going to prison, a steady income, and he's not a complete fucking looney. As far as I'm concerned, he's harmless.

Don't dance around the question PLEASE. You "assume" way too much here. You don't know if he molested anyone or not. Maybe he did and no one spoke out, or maybe people spoke out and you didn't find out about it. Simple scenario:

You know he's a babysitter.
You know he's a pedophile.
You know he dreams about having sex with children.

And you would let him babysit your kid?

It seems the image in your signature tells me why you are so devoted to defending pedophiles.

Originally Posted by Raphael

These two quotes conflict with each other:


If you are going by the logic that dream desires are independent from real life desires, then be consistent. Don't turn around and say pedophiles are on a separate plane from bank robbers. If you have the desire to rob a bank in real life, are you going to wake up and start planning a bank robbery? You will say, "of course not, it's only a dream desire." But then I can say the same thing about pedophile's dream desires. You're saying that by having lucid dreams about pedophilia, the pedo's desire is going to become even more intense to a point where he/she will start plotting. That is speculation based on zero facts. You cannot prove statistically that pedophiles who lucid dream about pedophilia are more likely to act upon these desires in real life, and that's what this discussion is really about.

Nonsense. Pedophilia is a need-driven behavior that produces very strong desires. Desire to have sexual intercourse is one of the most powerful desires in human beings. Now imagine how a pedophile feels when he is not attracted to adults, but to kids. He still wants to have sex as much as others do, but the law does not allow him to have sex with children.

He can either:

1.) fantasize about it without ever carrying it out in his lifetime
2.) actually carry it out

Now, using logic, critical thinking, and looking at the world we live in, how likely is #1?

It is totally fine for them to do so. I have a -phillia of my own that I hate myself for liking. (It's very weird, but not as weird as pedophillia.) that I sometimes live out in lucid dreaming. I am not hurting anyone nor my morality, in fact it is the main reason I started lucid dreaming in the first place. It helps me release my feelings and forget about it during the day. Pedophiles are usually no different than the rest of us and need the ability to satisfy their cravings or they might actually do it in real life.

it's already considered to be okay in real life so why not?

Originally Posted by Jakob

All of them are disturbed, obviously, or else they wouldn't want to have sex with kids. About the other characteristics, here is an example: Travelling to Thailand to have sex with a few month old baby (read about it) is an aggressive/disturbing/unstable/insane/disgusting act. Whoever disagrees with this needs to get his head checked.

We've already established I don't view it as a disease or mental impairment. Your argument is invalid.

They do..... but they also have a very strong desire to carry it out.

“Research shows pedophiles have a high rate of repeat offenses – with study statistics varying between 65 and 80 percent.” Experts say pedophilia may never be cured | SummitDaily.com

So the child molesters are likely to repeatedly molest children. Shocker.

The information I have cited is enough evidence that most pedophiles are individuals that are not to be trusted, and that they should be treated as dangerous people. Here is another gem for you:

“The average pedophile will victimize 244 children in their lifetime, according to the Massachusetts Children’s Trust Fund, a child advocacy group working to prevent child abuse and neglect.” an inch from murder - weblog: Outrage follows cop child abuse sentence

The information you cited applies only to pedophiles who are sex offenders. It does not take into scope the harmless pedos.

LOL, show me REAL statistics please, as I have shown you. Words mean nothing. I say pedophiles are dangerous, and I backed it up. Now prove me wrong.

No, you showed only that pedophiles comprise the majority of child molesters, not that most pedophiles are child molesters. You fail at statistics.

And it's funny how you automatically assume that every molestation that occurs is documented. There are children keep these things in themselves for many years, sometimes never speaking out about it. Some children tell someone immediately, and others wait many years until they speak out. I have shown enough evidence that they are not to be trusted. You have shown absolutely nothing except a strong desire to defend them.

And what of the pedophiles who keep it to themselves all the years? Due to increasing societal pressures on them (mostly from the likes of you), many are incredibly ashamed of their attraction.

You have no case.

My case is that dreams have no impact on reality, and pedophiles have a right to dream as they see fit. Trying to make them dream of something else or make them feel like shit for dreaming what they do is arbitrary bullshit of the finest quality.

Tell that to a father's face who's little daughter was raped by a pedo. I'd pay to see that.

How is this even relevant? Obviously a pedophile who molests a child is not in their right mind. Arguing with someone who is deeply emotionally disturbed and traumatized will solve nothing.

What in the world are you babbling about? Statistics show that they are not to be trusted.

Says the man who uses statistics to back up his argument.

Once you start off wrong, nothing right will follow. My argument was to use lucid dreaming as a treatment for pedophilia instead of using lucid dreaming to feed pedophilic fantasies with more pedophilic fantasies.

A 1994 National Institute of Health survey of 453 pedophiles, conducted by Dr. Gene Abel, showed these criminals were collectively responsible for the molestation of over 67,000 children. That’s an average of 148 children per individual pedophile.

And I argue that there is nothing an individual "should" or should not dream about. It is their mind, their rights, and their privacy.

Look, more statistics. More statistics that again take survey of an incredible minority. More statistics that you are brandishing about with absolutely no idea how to use them.

Don't dance around the question PLEASE. You "assume" way too much here. You don't know if he molested anyone or not. Maybe he did and no one spoke out, or maybe people spoke out and you didn't find out about it. Simple scenario:

You know he's a babysitter.
You know he's a pedophile.
You know he dreams about having sex with children.

And you would let him babysit your kid?

As I've said, I don't give two shits what he dreams about. All that counts is his actions. As long as his record turns up clean, why the hell not? Would it be any worse than taking my chances on some other random stranger, with no clue about what he dreams of or who he touches? At least I know this guy is a pedo. If anything happens to my child, I know where to look. No matter who you hire, you take a chance. You're inviting a stranger into your home. The only reason I'd decline this guy is because I don't know him and therefore don't trust him. (Of course, if I did know him and could trust him, then certainly.) I'd rather go with the neighborhood high school kid with the 3.5 GPA that I've known for years, just because I can trust him more.

It seems the image in your signature tells me why you are so devoted to defending pedophiles.

*sigh* more ad hominem. A surefire mark that you're running out of valid arguments, and so resort to name calling and jibes at my person, instead of my arguments. Grow up.

its a pointless argument anyway, what are you going to do go find him and wake him up. Come on, its just a dream, if he really does it thats wrong. But nobody can or should stop him from doing so.

Well it's one of those things.. I don't necessarily think it's right but a dream is no one's business except the dreamer's and if a pedophile is molesting children in a dream instead of doing it in real life, that's obviously favorable.

lol @ all the pedo statistics... like all pedos are going to admit they are