Thread: Library of everything you have learned and memories

Wyvern, you’re touching on one of the great potentials of LD’ing! To be able to use advanced LD’ing, to tap the vast store of knowledge that is your unconscious mind would be a great achievement -- not to mention that it’ll open doors to knowledge and experience that you never thought existed!

All hyperbole aside, though, I’ve given this some thought as well, so let me offer a couple of suggestions off the top of my head:

* First, everything stored in your mind is indeed a memory -- no need for two buckets.

* Don’t dismiss using books as your interface; reading books in the dreaming is much easier than setting up the interface you describe, so you could probably assume that reading won’t be a problem if you’ve succeeded in making your library. So if you like the look and feel of books, and they carry meaning for you personally, then go ahead and use them. Also, books don’t always need to be read -- you might only have to open a dream book up to experience the memory listed on its cover.

* You might want to consider stretching the metaphor a bit. Think of this less in terms of a library filled with volumes that you need to find than a special place where everything you ever experienced resides, and all those memories are interested in making themselves known. How you find those memories can then happen in any way you want -- the place can be anything you are comfortable with. I personally like Da Vinci’s Memory Cathedral, and also the VR interface that had a bit part in the movie Disclosure makes a for a good image. My point here is that the retrieval path depends less on the image of the filing system than on your will to retrieve the memories.

* There may be one major flaw to your plan: Memory Cathedrals, memory libraries, or what have you, can only work on an ongoing basis. In other words you need to symbolically tag each memory (using whatever method you choose) upon their initial creation, so that later you’ll have a way to retrieve them. I’m not sure any interface system you devise under this plan will help you to retrieve “untagged” memories. Don’t be disappointed, though; you may only need to revise your plan slightly to get those older memories. Perhaps instead of a file retrieval system, you might consider an exploration system, where you devise a dream or adventure whose plot lines encourage your unconscious to retrieve a particular memory. For instance, say you want to remember a particular math equation you learned -- and immediately forgot -- in math class several years ago. You could simply create a dream where you are back in that class, all details correct, and the equation is on the blackboard. And then, of course, it would be time to tag the memory.

That’s all I got right now, even though I think I left out about 90% of what really needed to be said here. Ask me some specific questions if you’re interested in tapping my addled memories some more…

Good luck with this idea; I hope you are able to turn it someday into a useful tool.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Wyvern, you’re touching on one of the great potentials of LD’ing! To be able to use advanced LD’ing, to tap the vast store of knowledge that is your unconscious mind would be a great achievement -- not to mention that it’ll open doors to knowledge and experience that you never thought existed!

All hyperbole aside, though, I’ve given this some thought as well, so let me offer a couple of suggestions off the top of my head:

* First, everything stored in your mind is indeed a memory -- no need for two buckets.

* Don’t dismiss using books as your interface; reading books in the dreaming is much easier than setting up the interface you describe, so you could probably assume that reading won’t be a problem if you’ve succeeded in making your library. So if you like the look and feel of books, and they carry meaning for you personally, then go ahead and use them. Also, books don’t always need to be read -- you might only have to open a dream book up to experience the memory listed on its cover.

* You might want to consider stretching the metaphor a bit. Think of this less in terms of a library filled with volumes that you need to find than a special place where everything you ever experienced resides, and all those memories are interested in making themselves known. How you find those memories can then happen in any way you want -- the place can be anything you are comfortable with. I personally like Da Vinci’s Memory Cathedral, and also the VR interface that had a bit part in the movie Disclosure makes a for a good image. My point here is that the retrieval path depends less on the image of the filing system than on your will to retrieve the memories.

* There may be one major flaw to your plan: Memory Cathedrals, memory libraries, or what have you, can only work on an ongoing basis. In other words you need to symbolically tag each memory (using whatever method you choose) upon their initial creation, so that later you’ll have a way to retrieve them. I’m not sure any interface system you devise under this plan will help you to retrieve “untagged” memories. Don’t be disappointed, though; you may only need to revise your plan slightly to get those older memories. Perhaps instead of a file retrieval system, you might consider an exploration system, where you devise a dream or adventure whose plot lines encourage your unconscious to retrieve a particular memory. For instance, say you want to remember a particular math equation you learned -- and immediately forgot -- in math class several years ago. You could simply create a dream where you are back in that class, all details correct, and the equation is on the blackboard. And then, of course, it would be time to tag the memory.

That’s all I got right now, even though I think I left out about 90% of what really needed to be said here. Ask me some specific questions if you’re interested in tapping my addled memories some more…

Good luck with this idea; I hope you are able to turn it someday into a useful tool.

Thank you so much! This has really got me thinking more, and I'll experiment with it tonight and probably ask you more later. Thanks again! I'll try more recent memories like as early as today just to test everything out (OK idea?).

We are naturally good at remembering symbols and places. Most advanced mnemonic techniques take advantage of these things. You want to organize complicated ideas into simplified forms that your mind can handle. A few good examples to look at would be:

Method of Loci: Method of loci - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Art of Memory: Art of memory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wonder if you can reverse engineer these ideas when trying to build your memory library. Use these techniques in reverse when trying to recall a certain memory.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

We are naturally good at remembering symbols and places. Most advanced mnemonic techniques take advantage of these things. You want to organize complicated ideas into simplified forms that your mind can handle. A few good examples to look at would be:

Method of Loci: Method of loci - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Art of Memory: Art of memory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wonder if you can reverse engineer these ideas when trying to build your memory library. Use these techniques in reverse when trying to recall a certain memory.

Ok, thanks!

Originally Posted by Wyvrn

Thank you so much! This has really got me thinking more, and I'll experiment with it tonight and probably ask you more later. Thanks again! I'll try more recent memories like as early as today just to test everything out (OK idea?).

Okay idea...good luck!

I have actually been thinking about this for a while. I am wondering how possible it actually is. Now that I have frequent Lucids, I think I am going to try this. Thanks for the inspiration! Good luck to you

Damn, I'd certainly class this as up there with one of the most advanced tasks out there, and also as really good thinking on your behalf - thinking above the normal limits of a dream and how it plays out, complete control and creation of a library.

I agree with Sageous here, I think the manner of organisation and presentation matters less than the effect of what you're trying to achieve. If you're really trying to organise them so that you can remember everything then I forsee you spending a long time in your lovely library!

In my head I picture more of an Overseer of Memories, a DC with the sole purpose of showing you memories important to you, letting you remember or relive them. I certainly think that this idea is interesting and I'd love to see how it turns out!

This idea is one that I have been musing over for a long time and is the main reason why I stick at lucid dreaming. I really want to be able to retrieve old memories just so I can really build a great sense of self, I dont 'know' my past as well as I would like.

Very interesting idea!
I wonder if it is possible to make (basically a part of the big library) filled with your dream journal. Could be good to have access to all your pas dreams.

Originally Posted by demoo

Very interesting idea!
I wonder if it is possible to make (basically a part of the big library) filled with your dream journal. Could be good to have access to all your past dreams.

I would bet it is...and that a solid LD'er could set up a "card catalog" -- sorry, old man writing here -- a "file browser" that can be updated during the dream. For instance, as your dream begins to fade, you tag it with a specific marker, and then include that tag at the beginning and end of your dream-journal entry. Concentrate on the tag during the dream, and then again after writing it down in waking life, and you might just have created a "dream file" that can be easily accessed in waking life or in dreams.

Excellent idea! Maybe someone should try it...

This comes back to the basic idea behind symbolism and language. We are capable of holding limitless amounts of knowledge, as long as we can simplify it all into something bite sized. Huge, complex, unwieldy concepts can be represented by a smaller and more manageable model.

I have never bought into the Jungian concept of a subconscious universal language of symbolism. I do, however, think this language can be learned. Take the complex symbolism found in old Alchemy/Hermeticism plates and prints. To someone who was trained to understand the language, one single image could be read like a book. It could instruct on philosophy, religion, chemistry, ect. I don't think this was done only to avoid persecution. It was an efficient way to encode and transfer information because it took advantage of, and worked with, our brain's natural tendencies.

I think that setting up a library would require this kind of approach. Create a rich enough language for yourself, and you could store and recall memories with a single thought.

Thanks Sageous, Robot_Butler, Mancon, Dark_Merlin, Duncan, and great idea demoo!

I read the wiki on The Method of Loci and The Art of Memory. Additionally, I got the book "The Art of Memory" by Frances Yates and read some of Rhetorica ad Herennium (in addition to the quotes from it in Yates'). I highly recommend these to anyone who is interested in a "Memory Libary", in the dream world or not.

Locations and where to store the data

Apparently, it is much better to use things like buildings, houses, and locations as apposed to a library. Quote from Rhetorica ad Herennium:
"He inferred that persons desiring to train this faculty (of memory)
must select places and form mental images of the things they wish
to remember and store those images in the places, so that the order
of the places will preserve the order of the things, and the images of
the things will denote the things themselves, and wr shall employ
the places and images respectively as a wax writing-tablet and the
letters written on it."

I was thinking, after reading just the wiki of Art of Memory, to just have a series of hall ways with stands and desks that I could use as locations (loci). I have found that it is better to use much more unique places versus having more simplicity. Quote from "The Art of Memory" by Frances Yates:
"...a building is to be remembered, as spacious and varied a one as possible, the forecourt, the living room, bedrooms, and parlours, not omitting statues and other ornaments with which the rooms are decorated." Continued "Memory loci should not be too much like one another..." Continued "...and not too small for then an arrangement of images will be overcrowded."

Also, for this method to work well we obviously need a great imagination (shows how truly correct Einstein was when he said that imagination is the true sign of intelligence), remember a large number of real places, or both. Quote from "Art of Memory": "If we wish to remember much material we must equip ourselves with a large number of places. It is essential that the places should form a series and must be remembered in their order, so that we can start from any locus in the series and move either backwards or forwards from it."
As Yates says here, order is very important. Simonides realized after the banquet disaster that "...orderly arrangment is essential for good memory."

Quote from "The Art of Memory":
"..for the same set of loci can be used again and again for remembering different material. The images which we have placed on them for remembering one set of things fade and are effaced when we make no further use of them. But the loci remain in the memory and can be used again by placing another set of images for another set of material.
"...it is useful to give each fifth locus some distinguishing mark. We may for example mark the fifth locus with a golden hand, and place in the tenth the image of some acquaintance whose name is Decimus. We can then go on to station other marks on each succeeding fifth locus."

I don't think that this is needed since we can easily create new loci (locations) in our dreams. Although, if we are recording events of the day and need to quickly place such res/items/things a common locus (location) would be good.

I also do not think that deserted loci are needed since we will be creating them in our dreams and we choose if we want DCs in them or not.

Objects and the method to resemble the data

We should use obsurd, very beautiful, funny, or otherwise things that stand out according to the Von Restorff effect and to the auther of Ad Herennium, since these things will stay in memory longer than plain or boring things. Like the example in the Method of Loci article on wikipedia to remember a grocery list, the first being a loaf of bread. Instead of placing a simple loaf of bread in the locus, put maybe a absurdly giant loaf of bread. And instead of simple eggs, put maybe lots of broken and disfigured eggs.

They should not be cluttered or too close together or we may loose data. Of course, as the auther of Ad Herenium pointed out, Metrodorus found three hundred and sixty places in the twelve signs of the Zodiac.

Finally, onto my theory

So after reading through the suggested treatises by Robot_Butler, parts of Ad Herennium, and Yate's work I have concluded that maybe mupltiple cities, as suggested in the Method of Loci article in wikipedia, with different routes and journeys, and maybe some actual, readable books along the way. And each city represent a certian subject or area of study. And then there are the undiscovered cities, which are actually all the data I learned but "forgot". Have a visual map of all the discovered cities and a central city where the current house, similtude to RAM of a computer, that I store the data that I have just learned and may need sorting or just holds temorary data. For example, one city could be the city of dreams where the dream is held in a house or building similar to that of the dream with items all throughout the house. And the central city would have my map and also detailed maps of the other cities. And also of course hold the "RAM" house where, mostly during waking life things that only temporarily need remembered can be placed. Quote from Frances Yates, "...for the same set of loci can be used again and again for remembering different material."

So let me know what you guys think of it. Most of it has already been done, except now we're doing it in our dreams and on a much larger scale!


P.S Sorry for any typos, didn't read down through it over very well..

If this is possible, then... Wow

That's a great foundation, Wyvrn, I think you have something from which you can build a real memory cathedral (or cityscape, as it were); very exciting!

You might want to carefully consider as well what Robot_Butler said above:

This comes back to the basic idea behind symbolism and language. We are capable of holding limitless amounts of knowledge, as long as we can simplify it all into something bite sized. Huge, complex, unwieldy concepts can be represented by a smaller and more manageable model.

This is a crucial point when considering recalling the volume of memory that you seek to tap: Words will not work here. Be careful when you set up those loci to do so using symbols & metaphor, with as little "explanatory text" as possible, if any. Our minds are wired for understanding big picture metaphor; try to avoid the classic intellectual error of attaching unnecessary words to your memories -- they'll only muddle things in the end.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by Sageous

That's a great foundation, Wyvrn, I think you have something from which you can build a real memory cathedral (or cityscape, as it were); very exciting!

You might want to carefully consider as well what Robot_Butler said above:



This is a crucial point when considering recalling the volume of memory that you seek to tap: Words will not work here. Be careful when you set up those loci to do so using symbols & metaphor, with as little "explanatory text" as possible, if any. Our minds are wired for understanding big picture metaphor; try to avoid the classic intellectual error of attaching unnecessary words to your memories -- they'll only muddle things in the end.

Good luck!

Thank you both! And I think that the most appropriate language would be simply things, objects, and images as Simonides used. Even though that seems maybe too indefinite, especially in contrast to the symbols on Alchemy/Hermeticism plates.
Also, I did not realize how adding unnecessary detail would muddle things in the end, thanks!

Nice elaboration Wyvrn!

From my experience with these memory systems, most have a 1 to 1 relationship. One funny image for one piece of info, ideal for phone numbers or grocery lists. So in order to represent each part of the dream, you would need a house filled with several elements.

In the dream city for example, choosing the correct neighbourhood, street and house already gives you some space to store information.

It leaves me with some wonder on the work that would be involved to bring all this stuff into shape.

This sounds like a great idea. This was the first thing that came to my mind actually when I first heard about lucid dreaming. I would try this but Im not having consistent LDs. After I get my technique right I'll be sure to try this. Also, instead of cites I may just do worlds. I think I would use worlds because it would be easier to have a definite boundary to where it ends, instead of a city that could span forever.

Just my input. Im happy that somebody has brought this up.

I'll try this once I get a regular amount of lucid dreams (once a day). Tell us how it goes when it's finished.

Originally Posted by demoo

Nice elaboration Wyvrn!

From my experience with these memory systems, most have a 1 to 1 relationship. One funny image for one piece of info, ideal for phone numbers or grocery lists. So in order to represent each part of the dream, you would need a house filled with several elements.

In the dream city for example, choosing the correct neighbourhood, street and house already gives you some space to store information.

It leaves me with some wonder on the work that would be involved to bring all this stuff into shape.

Thanks! And yes, it's going to take a long time.

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

This sounds like a great idea. This was the first thing that came to my mind actually when I first heard about lucid dreaming. I would try this but Im not having consistent LDs. After I get my technique right I'll be sure to try this. Also, instead of cites I may just do worlds. I think I would use worlds because it would be easier to have a definite boundary to where it ends, instead of a city that could span forever.

Just my input. Im happy that somebody has brought this up.

Yes, that seems reasonable, although anyone attempting this will probably need a lot of control to actually fly between worlds. I was not too quick to say this, because most advance LD'ers will probably think that's nothing. But at least for me, I would have trouble with that.

Originally Posted by Raetin

I'll try this once I get a regular amount of lucid dreams (once a day). Tell us how it goes when it's finished.

Well, that will be awhile, right now, just testing out the theory, I just have 3 houses (one my own, the other 2 are duplicates of a friend's) on a grey/white plane (I've done quite a bit of 3D modeling, and other related activities, so a grey plane was just how I imagined it before the dream). Currently, the first house is simply to remember my schedule, the next two I used to remember some numbers associated with different properties (work related). The dream faded before I could do much more (forgot to stabilize again). I am finding it is difficult to remember multiple digit numbers in one loci, so it is actually better to use a place for at least every 2 digits (at least for when your starting off in this technique).

This sounds like a freakin great idea

Originally Posted by Wyvrn

Yes, that seems reasonable, although anyone attempting this will probably need a lot of control to actually fly between worlds. I was not too quick to say this, because most advance LD'ers will probably think that's nothing. But at least for me, I would have trouble with that.

I have never actually tried to fly in-between worlds before. I just imagined getting in a tele porter thing that take me to them. xD

It would be cool to fly though space though.

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

I have never actually tried to fly in-between worlds before. I just imagined getting in a tele porter thing that take me to them. xD

It would be cool to fly though space though.

Oh I see. So there should be only one portal on each world to retain order and keep each worlds updated (just a thought). As Simonides said, "Orderly arrangement is essential for good memory."

As you have probably noticed in the past when trying to remember multiple things, and you forget one because they got out of order. I hope that makes sense.

Originally Posted by Wyvrn

Oh I see. So there should be only one portal on each world to retain order and keep each worlds updated (just a thought). As Simonides said, "Orderly arrangement is essential for good memory."

As you have probably noticed in the past when trying to remember multiple things, and you forget one because they got out of order. I hope that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense. That was exactly what I was thinking.

Maybe you could make it easier on yourself by starting with locations that already appear frequently in your dreams. Do you keep a dream journal? Have you identified any "place" dream signs? For example, I frequently dream about my childhood home.