How real are memories?

[Rothgar]

Recently my wife asked why I waste so much time journalling dreams. I dont even journal REAL things. At first I thought she had a good point. But then I thought, "but my dream memories seem as real to me as other memories". Not all dreams, but certainly lucid ones, and some, like last night, although not lucid I felt 'there'. So, how different are these from true memories? Once the event is over and only the memory remains, what difference does it make? I will likely enjoy rereading these adventures as much as any others. They were certainly "experienced" as much as the others. The cheap souveniers are all thats missing, and the shared experiences. If we crack the shared dreaming nut, then the souveniers are all thats lacking. How much greater is reality anyway? Any thoughts on this?

[Barry]

It's fun while its happening though

[Fractal]

Why do people waste time reading books, watching movies, singing, dancing... ? "Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted." - John Lennon I'd say ignoring the chance to experience anything you can imagine would be a waste. However, you should still of course not let any hobby or work get in the way of your family, but as long as you don't spend too much time on lucid dreaming I see no harm in it.

[Ibis]

Well, I guess one of the major things lacking from general dream memories must be physical consequences. But I agree that dreams are also experiences , 'cause in some way, it really happened. As if in, it have changed you psychically. So when real memories have psychic and physical consequences (as they happened outside you mind and you processed it inside at the same time), dream memories only have physical consequences as they only happened inside.. Am I making any sense here..? ^-^'

[nina]

She doesn't have a good point. I always love going back and reading dreams from years ago, and I'm always so glad that I actually took the time to write them down. I've been bad about writing my dreams down lately, and I know I'll regret it because I enjoy reading my old ones so much. Also when I read them, I usually remember the dream, yes it's as real of a memory as any other. Plus you'll also have appreciation for how much your dreams reflect what is going on in your actual life, so keeping a dream journal, at least for me, has at the same time been like keeping a real journal...I can go back and say, oh yeeahh I remember, this was when I was all depressed because my bf dumped me, or my dog died, or I got that job, or I was playing too many video games...etc. etc. Plus your memory of things changes (dream or waking), sometimes you need to write things down. Also, that doesn't even touch on how much it will benefit you in the present, in regards to lucid dreaming.

[Avalanche]

It boils down to definitions really. A memory is a record of something that happened in the past. A recalled dream is something that happened in your head, made up of lots of random timey wimey stuff. You never really experienced the dream (you didn't actually do the things in your dream) but you still remembered them. So in a way they are false memories, but they did happen.. just not physically. You could say they are memories because you remember them, and that they are not because they didn't actually happen. I think they are memories. Anything you remember is a memory, even if it's false or made up or never happened. A memory doesn't have to have made a difference or affected anything in the real world.

[nina]

It boils down to definitions really. A memory is a record of something that happened in the past. A recalled dream is something that happened in your head, made up of lots of random timey wimey stuff. You never really experienced the dream (you didn't actually do the things in your dream) but you still remembered them. So in a way they are false memories, but they did happen.. just not physically. I disagree that dreams should be classified as "false" memories. To me a false memory, would be remembering something that did not actually happen (either in a dream or while awake), e.g. being abused as a child.

[Avalanche]

But what are dreams then if not memories (things you remember happening) that are false (they didn't actually physically happen)? That applies the same way to your example, it's a memory that didn't actually happen. Both are made up, in the mind. One is just pleasant and made up regularly at night and the other one is brought up through other means. To me they are both the same, both false and both memories.

[nito89]

memories are as real as you allow them to be.

[Rothgar]

You all have good points. Thanks for sharing. I am still trying to reason it out. Personally, for me at least the lucid dream "happened". So in that sense it isnt false memory. And my consciousness was fully there... I was just as lucid "there" as I am now. So it was a real experience. I visually "saw" what I saw. I felt what I felt. But I also know it was not "physical". But does physical equal real? Love doesnt have to be physical and if I wrote in my journal I was in love no one would question the reality of it. If I felt God had forgiven me, that isnt physical but still judged as a reality by most peoples standards. Makes me wonder how to classify LDs.

[Avalanche]

Well it doesn't really depend on whether it happened or not to the real body. A memory is an image or recording in your head. A dream, real event or made up image can be a memory- they happened in your head. You remember feeling and seeing etc in dreams, they are remembered and are hence a memory. Stuff that's made up in your mind that never happened like the example of child abuse isn't a memory as my definition goes. You never experienced any sights or feels from it, you just think you did- in dreams you kinda do, if not is real life. Think of it like this- in the dream, that night, at 4am or whenever, you did see and feel what was in the dream. A memory of being abused say never happened at anytime, anywhere, so it isn't a memory. Lucid dreams are memories because you can think back and say "Yes, last night I was flying around the moon, it was really fast, etc".

[Evolventity]

Dreaming is real.

[Blunt]

memories are as real as you allow them to be. No matter what you argue, the end result will be the quote above. We all have different perspectives, different arguments, but the same result. That's our reality, and it's neither greater, nor lesser of anything else.

[Wolfwood]

Recently my wife asked why I waste so much time journalling dreams. I dont even journal REAL things. At first I thought she had a good point. But then I thought, "but my dream memories seem as real to me as other memories". Not all dreams, but certainly lucid ones, and some, like last night, although not lucid I felt 'there'. So, how different are these from true memories? Once the event is over and only the memory remains, what difference does it make? I will likely enjoy rereading these adventures as much as any others. They were certainly "experienced" as much as the others. The cheap souveniers are all thats missing, and the shared experiences. If we crack the shared dreaming nut, then the souveniers are all thats lacking. How much greater is reality anyway? Any thoughts on this? I will contend that dreams are at the very least like reading a book, watching a film, playing a game, or engaging in any other fantasy: when you derive enough pleasure from them, you wish to repeat them and share them. Dreams are no different, in fact, I'd personally say they're more involved than most other fiction. Furthermore, people write down their impression of a film, their review of a book, and their personal guides to games. So what's the difference? And people also come together to discuss films at film festivals, books at bookclubs, and play games at LAN parties. So even sharing your dream journal with others is completely normal and a good experience. Engaging in fiction is fun.

[nina]

No matter what you argue, the end result will be the quote above. We all have different perspectives, different arguments, but the same result. That's our reality, and it's neither greater, nor lesser of anything else. True, so long as you make it clear that you are stating your own personal opinion, and not fact. People are easily confused online, and I see too many people repeating the opinions of others as though they read it in an encyclopedia, and not a forum post. e.g.: someone reads Avanlanche's post and then sees a new thread called "dream memories" and responds to a similar question as the OP saying "it is not real, this is called a false memory"....then someone else reads this and starts a new thread called "what are false memories?"...and I facepalm hard. Maybe I've just been on this forum too long...

[Blunt]

True, so long as you make it clear that you are stating your own personal opinion, and not fact. People are easily confused online, and I see too many people repeating the opinions of others as though they read it in an encyclopedia, and not a forum post. e.g.: someone reads Avanlanche's post and then sees a new thread called "dream memories" and responds to a similar question as the OP saying "it is not real, this is called a false memory"....then someone else reads this and starts a new thread called "what are false memories?"...and I facepalm hard. Maybe I've just been on this forum too long... Eh, you'd think you wouldn't need to add a/an "imo" in the end. Join Date: Aug 2004 Yeah, a little long :p

[nina]

Eh, you'd think you wouldn't need to add a/an "imo" in the end. Join Date: Aug 2004 Yeah, a little long :p But I'm right. Actually what happens next is that they make a movie called False Memory, and five hundred newbs join the site posting "hey so I had a false memory once" and "was this a false memory?" and "can I share false memories with other people?"...and I'm like, wtf is a false memory? WHO STARTED THIS!? You're probably too new to get any of this btw. But you will eventually...

[Blunt]

I thought ideas started through bullshit anyway. I kinda get it, but probably too new, yeah.

[The Miracle]

This is a really interesting discussion. One thing that hasnt been mentioned is that memory, however it is formed - whether objective or false (misremembered) - change the physical structure of the brain. If it didnt, it wouldnt be remembered. So somewhat paradoxically, even false memories are objectively 'real'. One of the important things that dreams and lucid dreams can do is show us how we construct the world 'top-down'. The dream is made up entirely through our perceptions of the world and reality, or at least through that lens. The waking world is also filtered through our consciousness - and who really knows how much is constructed or filtered through our unique perspectives? One of the things that inspired me to begin researching LDs is what it can teach us about our memories and our perceptions.

[Supernova]

They're as real as you want them to be. Sometimes less. Sometimes more.

[allensig3654]

Great post! I say this to people all the time. I went to the Bahamas last year with some friends. Now its just a memory. I went to the Bahamas a week ago in my lucid that felt just as real to me. Now its just a memory. Really whats the difference between these two points? When I look back at them they are both memories of great times I had. They are both just as real to me.

[Wolfwood]

This is a really interesting discussion. One thing that hasnt been mentioned is that memory, however it is formed - whether objective or false (misremembered) - change the physical structure of the brain. If it didnt, it wouldnt be remembered. So somewhat paradoxically, even false memories are objectively 'real'. One of the important things that dreams and lucid dreams can do is show us how we construct the world 'top-down'. The dream is made up entirely through our perceptions of the world and reality, or at least through that lens. The waking world is also filtered through our consciousness - and who really knows how much is constructed or filtered through our unique perspectives? One of the things that inspired me to begin researching LDs is what it can teach us about our memories and our perceptions. Indeed, and in the waking world a ton of top-down processing must occur if we are to make sense of what comes from bottom-up. Categorisation, for instance, is heavily top-down. I think, specifically, what has been missed is that there is no such thing as an objective memory - if we both witnessed the same event, encoded a memory trace, and then had them subsequently extracted and displayed somehow....you'd find very different memories. Largely because of the varying magnitude and type of top-down processing between individuals. Heh, it is an interesting point, however, that if I were to encounter a friend in a dream....have an argument or do something to which would trigger a response in him.....that response would be exactly how I'd perceive him irl. Not necessarily how he really is. That is to say, it demonstrates how I'd project my top-down processing onto him in real life, whether correct/incorrect.