Thread: "Finger through hand" cracked! Try this :DDDD Are you awake?

Originally Posted by Caradon

Exactly. I'm not quite sure I get Mindrakers point. Is he trying to say the RC is no good because he can trick his eyes into seeing a hole in his hand using a cardboard toilet paper roll? The RC is about being able to push a solid object, through another solid object. It can be anything, not just your finger through your hand. And it's not just a visual illusion so to speak, you can feel it too. And many strange things can happen in the process that wouldn't happen with the illusion described.

For me the RC works wonderfully, and I have a lot of fun with it. Along with it's many variations. I recently pushed my thumb up through the bottom of my tongue. Then kept my tongue pulled out in that manner. Then walked around wiggling it in front of DC's to try and freak them out. You can push your finger, hand, or entire arm through any object. Walls, tables, whatever. Get weird with it, it's fun. And when you're familiar with how it feels, it just makes the RC that much easier to recognize that you're surely dreaming.

I'm saying the premise on which the reality check is based is flawed. What happens now when you DO push your fingers through your hand? Is it actually a dream imagining you pushing fingers through your hand, or is it a real-life illusion?

... stick your index and middle fingers through the end of the cardboard tube, and voila... your mind ALSO sees your fingers going through your hand... in reality.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

I'm saying the premise on which the reality check is based is flawed. What happens now when you DO push your fingers through your hand? Is it actually a dream imagining you pushing fingers through your hand, or is it a real-life illusion?

The world doesn't work like that, lol. You won't just see your finger going through your hand in real life... Your logic is flawed.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

... stick your index and middle fingers through the end of the cardboard tube, and voila... your mind ALSO sees your fingers going through your hand... in reality.

I doubt it, except if you have a third hand.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

The world doesn't work like that, lol. You won't just see your finger going through your hand in real life... Your logic is flawed.

Pick up the tube... and you'll be amazed. Tell me, do heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones, too? Of course not -- someone actually LOOKED.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

Pick up the tube... and you'll be amazed. Tell me, do heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones, too? Of course not -- someone actually LOOKED.

Try dropping an anvil and a feather at the same time - the anvil will land first. Of course, that's because the feather drifts back and forth on air currents that don't affect the anvil, but the fact remains the anvil does land first. They would fall at the same rate IF YOU COULD REMOVE AIR PRESSURE/WIND RESISTANCE FROM THE EQUATION, but in the real world it's always a factor until you reach objects heavy enough to not be affected by it.

This is exactly the same kind of problem your optical illusion fallacy suffers from. An optical illusion has nothing to do with how it feels to push your finger through your palm with no pain and no blood. Have you actually done the fingerpalm RC in a lucid dream?

I did it, and I once pushed my arms and head through a pane of glass out into the night air - the feeling totally changed, I could suddenly hear birds and insects I couldn't a second ago, and I could feel the breeze on my skin. How does a toilet paper illusion destroy this fact?

Pushing parts of your body through solid objects has a very specific feel in a dream (at least it has for me when I've done it). Nothing in waking life feels like it that I've experienced. And the fact that the eyes can be tricked is completley unrelated.

All you've done is burn down a strawman.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Try dropping an anvil and a feather at the same time - the anvil will land first. Of course, that's because the feather drifts back and forth on air currents that don't affect the anvil, but the fact remains the anvil does land first. They would fall at the same rate IF YOU COULD REMOVE AIR PRESSURE/WIND RESISTANCE FROM THE EQUATION, but in the real world it's always a factor until you reach objects heavy enough to not be affected by it.

This is exactly the same kind of problem your optical illusion fallacy suffers from. An optical illusion has nothing to do with how it feels to push your finger through your palm with no pain and no blood. Have you actually done the fingerpalm RC in a lucid dream?

I did it, and I once pushed my arms and head through a pane of glass out into the night air - the feeling totally changed, I could suddenly hear birds and insects I couldn't a second ago, and I could feel the breeze on my skin. How does a toilet paper illusion destroy this fact?

Pushing parts of your body through solid objects has a very specific feel in a dream (at least it has for me when I've done it). Nothing in waking life feels like it that I've experienced. And the fact that the eyes can be tricked is completley unrelated.

All you've done is burn down a strawman.

You raise an interesting point, to consider all the physical properties of an object (including wind resistance). But in your example, when you are comparing an anvil and a feather, not only are the objects not the same weight, but the two objects are also not the same shape, size, smoothness, and other factors which must be considered. A good test would limit the differences between the objects to minimum possible.

For example, a jet plane is much heavier than an anvil, but yet it stays in the air much longer than an anvil. But we're getting distracted from the original discussion.

Caradon said in post #16 that she/he relied on many reality checks, and I think that's the best option. Reality is merely our perception of the world around us, and so are our dreams. There isn't that much difference between the dream world and the real world, if you realize that it's just our brains processing what our senses interpret from the world around us. Smell, sound, scent, heat, touch... It's just neurological impulses triggered in our brains.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

Reality is merely our perception of the world around us, and so are our dreams. There isn't that much difference between the dream world and the real world, if you realize that it's just our brains processing what our senses interpret from the world around us.

One way you can definitely tell the difference from waking life and a dream - try pushing your finger through your palm!

Your argument is right insofar as if you can't do it, then you still can't reliably tell if you're dreaming or awake. However, if you can, then rest assured, you're dreaming! That's really the only way that RC can fail, if you're unable to complete it. Though I suppose some people might do it and still have such low awarenes that they're able to rationalize it somehow ("Oh yeah, that's right, I got a hole punched through the center of my hand years ago, and now this is no problem... "). But that's not the RC itself failing, it's the dreamer having low awareness and failing to understand what's happening.

Your original position hinged on the fact that optical illusions exist when we're awake, which misses the point of this particular RC. In fact, when I was able to do it in a dream a while back, I couldn't see at all! The dream was black. I could feel it though. So, unless you can demonstrate some way that a person can achieve a 'tactile illusion' of pushing a finger through their palm with no pain and no blood while awake and sober, then the thread is a fail.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

So, unless you can demonstrate some way that a person can achieve a 'tactile illusion' of pushing a finger through their palm with no pain and no blood while awake and sober, then the thread is a fail.

That is an excellent response. When you do your reality check with your hand, what exactly are you doing that is different from me merely making an optical illusion with my hand? Or posting a picture of someone sticking their fingers through their hand? You have answered it.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

The world doesn't work like that, lol. You won't just see your finger going through your hand in real life... Your logic is flawed.

I hate to sound like I'm backing him up personally, but I couldn't just let you say that. Prove that it is impossible to see your finger go through your hand in waking life. Prove that it cannot be done by either illusion or hallucination. You can't just go around saying something is impossible without presenting the evidence. Personally, I believe it can be done. People hallucinate all the time, and not just on drugs. Illusions are also very tricky, ever seen a magic show? And either way, we are talking about how this illusion will reflect your beliefs in your dreams, not in waking life. Your logic is flawed :]

Originally Posted by Moiraine

I hate to sound like I'm backing him up personally, but I couldn't just let you say that. Prove that it is impossible to see your finger go through your hand in waking life. Prove that it cannot be done by either illusion or hallucination. You can't just go around saying something is impossible without presenting the evidence. Personally, I believe it can be done. People hallucinate all the time, and not just on drugs. Illusions are also very tricky, ever seen a magic show? And either way, we are talking about how this illusion will reflect your beliefs in your dreams, not in waking life. Your logic is flawed :]

Illusions are not the same as truly pushing your finger through your hand.

Your logic is just as flawed as Mindraker's.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

Illusions are not the same as truly pushing your finger through your hand.

lol and who is arguing that it is? I think you missed the point here, go back and try again

To give a little perspective, this is one of the main physical RCs I do. In my opinion the illusion will not alter the effectiveness of this RC for me. I'm just...annoyed by your way of thinking that your answer and only your answer is correct, and you provide nothing but condescending remarks that haven't added to the conversation.

Originally Posted by Moiraine

lol and who is arguing that it is? I think you missed the point here, go back and try again

To give a little perspective, this is one of the main physical RCs I do. In my opinion the illusion will not alter the effectiveness of this RC for me. I'm just...annoyed by your way of thinking that your answer and only your answer is correct, and you provide nothing but condescending remarks that haven't added to the conversation.

You reacted with a remark, what did you expect?

Saying that my answer provides nothing is also ignorant. Just because you think one way, that doesn't mean another opinion is wrong

The RC is about the physical feeling of pushing your finger through your hand, not about the illusion of it. You can gain the illusion in some ways for sure, but that's not what the RC is about. It's irrevelant.