Thread: "Finger through hand" cracked! Try this :DDDD Are you awake?

Ok, so what? This is not finger through hand.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

Ok, so what? This is not finger through hand.

You missed the point entirely. The reality check of "finger through hand" is based on the premise that two solid objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

However, if you call the reality check itself into question -- and trick your mind into believing that there are two objects that occupy the same space at the same time -- then the reality check itself is flawed.

And that is exactly what happens with the cardboard tube next to the hand. The mind "sees" a tube through the hand. So what are you supposed to do in your dream, now, if you know you can see a tube through your hand?

Just do a different reality check. I've never done the finger-hand RC in a dream.


And why do you call it a dootstie?

I thought it was the physical action of pushing your finger through your hand...

Originally Posted by melanieb

And why do you call it a dootstie?

LOL! I'll have to blame my parents for that. Anyway, seems like society has corrupted yet another innocent object. *sigh*... dear old me.

Originally Posted by isthisit

I thought it was the physical action of pushing your finger through your hand...

Exactly. I'm not quite sure I get Mindrakers point. Is he trying to say the RC is no good because he can trick his eyes into seeing a hole in his hand using a cardboard toilet paper roll? The RC is about being able to push a solid object, through another solid object. It can be anything, not just your finger through your hand. And it's not just a visual illusion so to speak, you can feel it too. And many strange things can happen in the process that wouldn't happen with the illusion described.

For me the RC works wonderfully, and I have a lot of fun with it. Along with it's many variations. I recently pushed my thumb up through the bottom of my tongue. Then kept my tongue pulled out in that manner. Then walked around wiggling it in front of DC's to try and freak them out. You can push your finger, hand, or entire arm through any object. Walls, tables, whatever. Get weird with it, it's fun. And when you're familiar with how it feels, it just makes the RC that much easier to recognize that you're surely dreaming.

Originally Posted by Caradon

Exactly. I'm not quite sure I get Mindrakers point. Is he trying to say the RC is no good because he can trick his eyes into seeing a hole in his hand using a cardboard toilet paper roll? The RC is about being able to push a solid object, through another solid object. It can be anything, not just your finger through your hand. And it's not just a visual illusion so to speak, you can feel it too. And many strange things can happen in the process that wouldn't happen with the illusion described.

For me the RC works wonderfully, and I have a lot of fun with it. Along with it's many variations. I recently pushed my thumb up through the bottom of my tongue. Then kept my tongue pulled out in that manner. Then walked around wiggling it in front of DC's to try and freak them out. You can push your finger, hand, or entire arm through any object. Walls, tables, whatever. Get weird with it, it's fun. And when you're familiar with how it feels, it just makes the RC that much easier to recognize that you're surely dreaming.

I wanted to point out the same thing with my first post in this thread as you did, i was just too lazy to elaborate

Somehow Minddraker just doesn't understand how the two things are totally not the same.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

You missed the point entirely. The reality check of "finger through hand" is based on the premise that two solid objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

However, if you call the reality check itself into question -- and trick your mind into believing that there are two objects that occupy the same space at the same time -- then the reality check itself is flawed.

And that is exactly what happens with the cardboard tube next to the hand. The mind "sees" a tube through the hand. So what are you supposed to do in your dream, now, if you know you can see a tube through your hand?

Id love to see how you manage to hold up a piece of cardboard in one hand, your other hand up to the coardboard and your last hand to do the reality check. Seems legit

Originally Posted by Caradon

Exactly. I'm not quite sure I get Mindrakers point. Is he trying to say the RC is no good because he can trick his eyes into seeing a hole in his hand using a cardboard toilet paper roll? The RC is about being able to push a solid object, through another solid object. It can be anything, not just your finger through your hand. And it's not just a visual illusion so to speak, you can feel it too. And many strange things can happen in the process that wouldn't happen with the illusion described.

For me the RC works wonderfully, and I have a lot of fun with it. Along with it's many variations. I recently pushed my thumb up through the bottom of my tongue. Then kept my tongue pulled out in that manner. Then walked around wiggling it in front of DC's to try and freak them out. You can push your finger, hand, or entire arm through any object. Walls, tables, whatever. Get weird with it, it's fun. And when you're familiar with how it feels, it just makes the RC that much easier to recognize that you're surely dreaming.

I'm saying the premise on which the reality check is based is flawed. What happens now when you DO push your fingers through your hand? Is it actually a dream imagining you pushing fingers through your hand, or is it a real-life illusion?

... stick your index and middle fingers through the end of the cardboard tube, and voila... your mind ALSO sees your fingers going through your hand... in reality.

He might have a point. Personally what I think it comes down to is what you believe. Your dreams are what you believe they can be. If you believe your RC will work, well then it will work. Likewise, if you believe it is flawed, then it probably will not work. This is why it's suggested you learn and use several different kinds of RCs. ADA is also very helpful because of this. When you begin to become more aware or conscious in your dreams, you shouldn't need any single RC. The dream itself will become your RC. I've seen other people mention this and it's one of my favorites: I like to imagine picking up objects with my mind and moving them around, or creating crazy color patterns that fly through the room. If you practice this in real life, then do it in your dreams, you might be pleasantly surprised when, say, your computer screen flies across the room and a whole complex geometric color scheme floats out of the broken monitor.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

I'm saying the premise on which the reality check is based is flawed. What happens now when you DO push your fingers through your hand? Is it actually a dream imagining you pushing fingers through your hand, or is it a real-life illusion?

The world doesn't work like that, lol. You won't just see your finger going through your hand in real life... Your logic is flawed.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

... stick your index and middle fingers through the end of the cardboard tube, and voila... your mind ALSO sees your fingers going through your hand... in reality.

I doubt it, except if you have a third hand.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

The world doesn't work like that, lol. You won't just see your finger going through your hand in real life... Your logic is flawed.

Pick up the tube... and you'll be amazed. Tell me, do heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones, too? Of course not -- someone actually LOOKED.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

The world doesn't work like that, lol. You won't just see your finger going through your hand in real life... Your logic is flawed.

I hate to sound like I'm backing him up personally, but I couldn't just let you say that. Prove that it is impossible to see your finger go through your hand in waking life. Prove that it cannot be done by either illusion or hallucination. You can't just go around saying something is impossible without presenting the evidence. Personally, I believe it can be done. People hallucinate all the time, and not just on drugs. Illusions are also very tricky, ever seen a magic show? And either way, we are talking about how this illusion will reflect your beliefs in your dreams, not in waking life. Your logic is flawed :]

Originally Posted by Mindraker

I'm saying the premise on which the reality check is based is flawed. What happens now when you DO push your fingers through your hand? Is it actually a dream imagining you pushing fingers through your hand, or is it a real-life illusion?

... stick your index and middle fingers through the end of the cardboard tube, and voila... your mind ALSO sees your fingers going through your hand... in reality.

The only real flaw in the RC from what I've read in others journals, is that many people who try it give up too easy, and are unable to push it through. But I've made it work every time. Also, I use it as a secondary RC. Or just plain for fun. As soon as I feel that familiar soft rubbery consistency of the object I'm trying to push through. I instantly know beyond doubt I'm dreaming. Like I said, it's much more than just a visual thing. And very strange things can happen when you use it. It's apparent that you have never used this RC in a dream. Because the experience of the RC in a dream is far different than the experience of the illusion you're speaking of. Nice try though.

I'm certainly not going to quit using it based on this thread lol. But any RC has the potential to not work for someone. That's why like Moiriane pointed out, it's always good to have multiple RC's ready to use.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

Pick up the tube... and you'll be amazed. Tell me, do heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones, too? Of course not -- someone actually LOOKED.

Try dropping an anvil and a feather at the same time - the anvil will land first. Of course, that's because the feather drifts back and forth on air currents that don't affect the anvil, but the fact remains the anvil does land first. They would fall at the same rate IF YOU COULD REMOVE AIR PRESSURE/WIND RESISTANCE FROM THE EQUATION, but in the real world it's always a factor until you reach objects heavy enough to not be affected by it.

This is exactly the same kind of problem your optical illusion fallacy suffers from. An optical illusion has nothing to do with how it feels to push your finger through your palm with no pain and no blood. Have you actually done the fingerpalm RC in a lucid dream?

I did it, and I once pushed my arms and head through a pane of glass out into the night air - the feeling totally changed, I could suddenly hear birds and insects I couldn't a second ago, and I could feel the breeze on my skin. How does a toilet paper illusion destroy this fact?

Pushing parts of your body through solid objects has a very specific feel in a dream (at least it has for me when I've done it). Nothing in waking life feels like it that I've experienced. And the fact that the eyes can be tricked is completley unrelated.

All you've done is burn down a strawman.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Try dropping an anvil and a feather at the same time - the anvil will land first. Of course, that's because the feather drifts back and forth on air currents that don't affect the anvil, but the fact remains the anvil does land first. They would fall at the same rate IF YOU COULD REMOVE AIR PRESSURE/WIND RESISTANCE FROM THE EQUATION, but in the real world it's always a factor until you reach objects heavy enough to not be affected by it.

This is exactly the same kind of problem your optical illusion fallacy suffers from. An optical illusion has nothing to do with how it feels to push your finger through your palm with no pain and no blood. Have you actually done the fingerpalm RC in a lucid dream?

I did it, and I once pushed my arms and head through a pane of glass out into the night air - the feeling totally changed, I could suddenly hear birds and insects I couldn't a second ago, and I could feel the breeze on my skin. How does a toilet paper illusion destroy this fact?

Pushing parts of your body through solid objects has a very specific feel in a dream (at least it has for me when I've done it). Nothing in waking life feels like it that I've experienced. And the fact that the eyes can be tricked is completley unrelated.

All you've done is burn down a strawman.

You raise an interesting point, to consider all the physical properties of an object (including wind resistance). But in your example, when you are comparing an anvil and a feather, not only are the objects not the same weight, but the two objects are also not the same shape, size, smoothness, and other factors which must be considered. A good test would limit the differences between the objects to minimum possible.

For example, a jet plane is much heavier than an anvil, but yet it stays in the air much longer than an anvil. But we're getting distracted from the original discussion.

Caradon said in post #16 that she/he relied on many reality checks, and I think that's the best option. Reality is merely our perception of the world around us, and so are our dreams. There isn't that much difference between the dream world and the real world, if you realize that it's just our brains processing what our senses interpret from the world around us. Smell, sound, scent, heat, touch... It's just neurological impulses triggered in our brains.

I'm never going to get those 2 minutes back...

Originally Posted by Moiraine

I hate to sound like I'm backing him up personally, but I couldn't just let you say that. Prove that it is impossible to see your finger go through your hand in waking life. Prove that it cannot be done by either illusion or hallucination. You can't just go around saying something is impossible without presenting the evidence. Personally, I believe it can be done. People hallucinate all the time, and not just on drugs. Illusions are also very tricky, ever seen a magic show? And either way, we are talking about how this illusion will reflect your beliefs in your dreams, not in waking life. Your logic is flawed :]

Illusions are not the same as truly pushing your finger through your hand.

Your logic is just as flawed as Mindraker's.

Originally Posted by littlezoe

Illusions are not the same as truly pushing your finger through your hand.

lol and who is arguing that it is? I think you missed the point here, go back and try again

To give a little perspective, this is one of the main physical RCs I do. In my opinion the illusion will not alter the effectiveness of this RC for me. I'm just...annoyed by your way of thinking that your answer and only your answer is correct, and you provide nothing but condescending remarks that haven't added to the conversation.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

Reality is merely our perception of the world around us, and so are our dreams. There isn't that much difference between the dream world and the real world, if you realize that it's just our brains processing what our senses interpret from the world around us.

One way you can definitely tell the difference from waking life and a dream - try pushing your finger through your palm!

Your argument is right insofar as if you can't do it, then you still can't reliably tell if you're dreaming or awake. However, if you can, then rest assured, you're dreaming! That's really the only way that RC can fail, if you're unable to complete it. Though I suppose some people might do it and still have such low awarenes that they're able to rationalize it somehow ("Oh yeah, that's right, I got a hole punched through the center of my hand years ago, and now this is no problem... "). But that's not the RC itself failing, it's the dreamer having low awareness and failing to understand what's happening.

Your original position hinged on the fact that optical illusions exist when we're awake, which misses the point of this particular RC. In fact, when I was able to do it in a dream a while back, I couldn't see at all! The dream was black. I could feel it though. So, unless you can demonstrate some way that a person can achieve a 'tactile illusion' of pushing a finger through their palm with no pain and no blood while awake and sober, then the thread is a fail.

Originally Posted by Moiraine

lol and who is arguing that it is? I think you missed the point here, go back and try again

To give a little perspective, this is one of the main physical RCs I do. In my opinion the illusion will not alter the effectiveness of this RC for me. I'm just...annoyed by your way of thinking that your answer and only your answer is correct, and you provide nothing but condescending remarks that haven't added to the conversation.

You reacted with a remark, what did you expect?

Saying that my answer provides nothing is also ignorant. Just because you think one way, that doesn't mean another opinion is wrong

The RC is about the physical feeling of pushing your finger through your hand, not about the illusion of it. You can gain the illusion in some ways for sure, but that's not what the RC is about. It's irrevelant.

I'm sorry I had to do this, but you left me little choice. It's not just you, either, I've been following this forum for a while and I see it very often.
Ok, so for the moment I'll assume you've had some sort of schooling. If you haven't I do not mean to offend. Since I'm assuming you have, you must have had an English course in which you had to write essays or editorials, essentially papers concerning your opinion on a certain subject and sources to back up your opinion. (There are other varieties, but this one is fundamental.) What to you, qualifies as adding to an argument?

If the subject was "Is the sky blue?" what would be the better response:
"The sky is (or is not) blue you idiots!" OR
"The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering. As light moves through the atmosphere, most of the longer wavelengths pass straight through. Little of the red, orange and yellow light is affected by the air"(source name). Blue Sky - Why is the Sky Blue?
?
Is there a significant difference in these answers? Which one is better, the one that simply states an opinion or the one that has sources to back it up? It's not always possible to back up everything you say with a source, especially concerning dreams, but it would be nice to at least have some sort reasoning behind it:
"The sky is blue because it's always been blue forever you idiots! God I hate dealing with idiots, I'm glad I'm not one."
vs
"I think the sky is blue because it has something to do with water reflecting back into the atmosphere."

This is a lucid dreaming forum, not a social fun happy time forum where all we try to do is raise egos by bursting other egos, which is what most social interaction is about. Depending on where you live, lucid dreaming or even dreaming in general may or may not be looked down on as a time waster or an "irrelevant" sort of hobby, but I think it's safe to say most of us here think it is a great time investment and is a subject still open to new development. So while I see your point--it is definitely fun to build ego on the internet--most people are looking for quality information or debates here. It is always great to hear new ideas about things, even if they are proven wrong, because they can spark a sort of different kind of thinking which might lead to a different idea that can be proven right.

Now, I have not been posting on this forum for very long, but I am no stranger to forums and how they work. It always ends up in much arguing, because we are all different and have different opinions. I can completely understand your opinion, on the other hand I also understand the op's opinion. Several other people have added to the discussion by using one of the correct argumentative methods I listed above, but I have not seen you use one of these correct methods. All I have seen you do in every post is feed your own ego, which is deadly dangerous, I might add. Far more dangerous than many things, believe it or not.

I know I will have seemingly made a jerk of myself, and it is possible one of the moderators will not like my post either. In the big picture that does not matter to me, I just felt it was needed, and if I enlighten even one random internet reader to the correct methods of healthy debate, then I am satisfied, even if that person is not you.

Sweet dreams.

I don't see how that proves your point though, as other people said, it's about the finger going through the hand. You may be able to make it with a tube, but who's gonna use a tube to see if their finger goes into their hand? All you do is try to poke your finger through your hand, which is very simple. You may be able to create a illusion with the tube, but your not actually putting your finger in your hand.

Sorry if I missed a point of this thread.