All a fake?!

[LouaiB]

Could all our LDs be only very convincing dreams about LDing? or am I just paranoid? I have had 4 LDs of which 2 where very vivid and full of awareness, but never fully as it should be (don't forget that lucid dreams have the potential to be very aware since the brain runs at 64Hz, faster that waking life) . I guess I just answered my own question lol. I guess because I'm still a beginner. I'd still love to hear your opinions.

[Voldmer]

My guess at the moment is that lucidity in dreams is a less clear-cut phenomenon, than it is normally made out to be. From my perspective, the important concept is consciousness, and I believe this to move continuously from deep unconsciousness to ultra-consciousness (for lack of a better word). The idea that you are either conscious or not seems unreasonable to me, and it does not appear to correspond well to my own observations. Possibly consciousness is not even a simple one-dimensional construction; certainly for me consciousness seems to have many facets and may be highly acute with respect to some things, whilst at the same time being quite inattentive towards other things. Maybe it would help to split "lucidity" into several sub-components; for example, it is one thing to be "aware that one is in a dream", but another to be "aware of one self". You could well have one without the other.

[Laurelindo]

Lucid dreams are definitely real, they have actually asked lucid dreamers to make certain eye signals during REM sleep in sleep laboratories, and in order to do that they would have to be able to think "I am supposed to do this eye signal now, since I am dreaming" - how could anyone tell themselves that without being fully aware of the dreamstate?

[StephL]

Sure you are correct Laurelindo - for that to work and for it to be a real LD - you need to know, that you are dreaming - and such that your body is lying somewhere sleeping, and that you have plans and all sorts of possibilities. I also had a dream about LD - but that was me talking about it with somebody - clearly non-lucid. Just for a very short time after this - I had a lucid moment, which dissolved again - but that was not the conversation before. But I wondered about something.. I lately had a dream, where I sort of knew, this was not normal reality. Meaning I felt completely free to do what I want - having an unusual affair - knowing there would be no consequences. So I did not take it for really real - but on the other hand, I was not lucid - I was not aware exactly of the fact, that this was a dream - that I can just leave scenery alone and do my very own thing. But I let the dream run in an unusually experimental way - as said - not caring about any consequences - and I usually do care for consequences in normal dreams. So I thought, that this maybe was a sort of sub-lucidity. Missing the ingredients for a real LD, but having some characteristics anyway..

[Zoth]

So I thought, that this maybe was a sort of sub-lucidity. Subconscious lucidity ^^ Think it was at some MIT introduction to psychology class that the teacher mentioned a study where they can tell a person is not conscious that a certain card game is rigged, but they still act like they knew several rounds before realizing it.

[StephL]

I could really spend all my time with learning about such findings, Zoth! Are you aware of Wolf Singer? I´ll probably make a thread on this German neurobiologist anyway soon - concerned with consciousness/subconscious mechanisms. Makes total sense to me, your example - that should really have been something like that. Shame I didn´t realize, like the card-players did later on.. I spend too much time on the forum, maybe - and do almost no serious day-time practice - but I will start - I was a bit too optimistic after the first little successes with just WBTB and WILD-tries..

[fogelbise]

Subconscious lucidity ^^ Think it was at some MIT introduction to psychology class that the teacher mentioned a study where they can tell a person is not conscious that a certain card game is rigged, but they still act like they knew several rounds before realizing it. Great example! Thank you Zoth! Did you go/Are you going to school there? To OP LouaiB: My input is that with a little more experience you will definitely be able to tell the difference if your level of lucidity is high in the dream and you will usually be able to tell the difference with anything above the lowest levels of lucidity. So fear not, with practice you will know for sure! For a new person, dreaming about LDing is at least a step in the right direction so they should not see it as a complete failure as long as they recognize it for what it is afterwards and strive for LDs going forward (not necessarily that any of the OP's LDs were only dreaming of LDing, how could I know that without more info?). For something like Zoth's example in relation to a dream, we may wake up and recall the dream and say "hmm I was almost lucid," "I was semi-lucid" or "I had very low lucidity"... "in that dream." Great LDers still active on Dreamviews like Sageous and Sivason (and others I'm sure) talk of almost always being semi-lucid or at a low lucid level in most of their dreams.

[Darkmatters]

I lately had a dream, where I sort of knew, this was not normal reality... but on the other hand, I was not lucid - I was not aware exactly of the fact, that this was a dream Happens to me a lot!! I understand that the 'normal' laws of physics don't apply in "these situations" (though I don't realize I'm dreaming). It often also comes with some degree of subconscious dream control, still without realizing it's a dream!

[Laurelindo]

Ah, the wonder of low lucidity. You are in "this special place" and you know that you can do "anything you want without any danger" and yet you are like "...but I have no idea why I think this way - anyway, let's have some fun in this... place... until this... event... happens that takes me away from here, wherever I might be ".

[Zoth]

I could really spend all my time with learning about such findings, Zoth! Are you aware of Wolf Singer? I´ll probably make a thread on this German neurobiologist anyway soon - concerned with consciousness/subconscious mechanisms. Makes total sense to me, your example - that should really have been something like that. Shame I didn´t realize, like the card-players did later on.. Sadly no, must say I'm quite behind on my consciousness readings. I'm not even done with Damasio yet Be sure to make that post, I'd be very interested on knowing more about him That reminds me that I need to stop procrastinating and be more productive so much time wasted this last weeks xD Great example! Thank you Zoth! Did you go/Are you going to school there? I wish MIT along with other prestigious universities offer self-study courses for interested people, at undergraduate/graduate level, with assignments/exams/materials. A few of them allow you to watch the original classes as well, and this year I took a 2 week vacation to complete one of them (had to study 100 hours + do 3 exams in 10 days, but it was super interesting!). On topic: Tholey actually expressed his opinion regarding the different "requirements" to lucidity. Since I can't find the article on my database, I googled a bit until I a mention to this: For THOLEY (1985) the following points have to be fulfilled to define a lucid dream: THOLEY compiled a list of prerequisite factors that have to be present to define a lucid dream: Clarity (Klarheit) about the status of consciousness: Awareness that one is dreaming Clarity (Klarheit) about the freedom of decision: The ability within the dream to choose a course of action... Clarity (Klarheit) of consciousness, as opposed to a state ofconfusion Clarity (Klarheit) about the waking life: about who you are and what, if any, your plans were for this dream Clarity (Klarheit) of perception: what can be seen, heard, smelt, tasted or felt sometimes much more intense Clarity (Klarheit) of recollectionof the dream. You know, that you will remember this dream, that you can remember other dreams already dreamt while dreaming Clarity (Klarheit) of meaning: You know, why you dream this dream and you know, what the (hidden) meaning is The first four points of THOLEY’s definition of lucid dreaming is widely accepted whereas the last two points are open to discussion and often not accepted as absolute prerequisites. For the definition of lucid dream like THOLEY introduced it, (1) to (7). For Stephen LaBERGE only (1) and (2) are required. (3) to (7) are more like features of this wonderful often quite ecstatic dream state (in German called “Klartraum” oder “luzider Traum”).

[Baron Samedi]

Lucidity, awareness. We can be aware of many things while dreaming: Aware of the fact that we are dreaming Aware of our Dream Control powers Aware of the fact that we are sleeping Aware of our physical body sensations Aware of the fact that we (probably) have no moral consequences