Thread: Lucidity At The Very End Of REM-Phases - Reason For "Instability" Issues?

What most lucid learners including me have as a classical problem is this:
We become lucid - and after no, or not much time at all - we wake up.

Now - mostly this issue is addressed from the stabilization viewpoint - but could it maybe be, that people wake up so easily, because they only get lucid at the very end of their normal dreams in the first place?

I often have a whole lot of dream before it happens, and maybe more experienced DILDers realize, that they are dreaming earlier in the respective REM cycle.
If you mainly gain lucidity for the very reason, that the time is optimal for it, in terms of beginning to wake up a bit already - such micro-lucids might follow directly from that, instead of mainly over-excitement or failing to engage all dream-senses or what have you.

I wonder what the difference is, between people with long lucids and people with at least a tendency to wake up so soon after the realization. Do you think, there is a significant connection?

I hope next time round I will at least have the presence of mind to go for a DEILD.
But would that work, or have a chance to become a long LD, if REM of the previous dream really was at it's very end?

I think that happens a lot StephL ! I also think stabilization is a controversial issue, although Laberge has evidence to support it. I would ask: why stop to stabilize and not continue engaging with the dream ? As far as one's excitement is not too high, i think there's no need to stabilize. However, i always pray for dream stability as soon as i get lucid, so...

Now, if it can at least become a good opportunity to DEILD idk, i am more inclined to say no - but of course no problem to try
There was a recent thread in which this question was raised, if you want to check it out

Originally Posted by VagalTone

I think that happens a lot StephL ! I also think stabilization is a controversial issue, although Laberge has evidence to support it. I would ask: why stop to stabilize and not continue engaging with the dream ? As far as one's excitement is not too high, i think there's no need to stabilize. However, i always pray for dream stability as soon as i get lucid, so...

Now, if it can at least become a good opportunity to DEILD idk, i am more inclined to say no - but of course no problem to try
There was a recent thread in which this question was raised, if you want to check it out

Well engaging with the dream does not equate to having a high stability or awareness, the point of stabilization is to continue the awareness required to maintain a lucid dream. The problem with utilizing dream engagement is that you could easily, forget about the dream or get carried away as you frequently do in real life. The moment you include some awareness practice you are automatically using stabilization, because that's all it is - just a tool to enhance the lucidity and rationality behind your thinking and actions.

I need it to continue my dreams lucidly. When I forget to stabilize or am too lazy I literally lose the dream in less than minute every time. This could be partly due to the nature of lucid dreaming (perhaps it isn't a very stable state of mind) but I believe it mainly to be because I fall into an unconscious slumber.

Anyone who has ever tried ADA or similar practices will know the feeling of being fully aware and all of a sudden just falling into a mindless drone while you listen to music or walk down an aisle. If it's so easy to lose lucidity in real life, can you imagine how hard it is in a dream!

That makes sense Dutch ! I was thinking about classical tools to prolong the dream and not lucidity itself. That is another thing and yes it is crucial - but that can also and should be carried from waking life awareness habits.

So what do you do as your stabilisation routines, you two?
I'm not anti-stabilisation - that's my main issue after getting there - would be great of you to share!

As i said i like to pray, something like this " dalai lama help me stabilize this dream ". Not uncommon to try to summon him after that.

I like to go through the criteria for a perfect lucid dream. I believe they were created by deirdre barrett.
They go as follows:
1) The dreamer is aware that they are dreaming
2) Objects disappear after waking
3) Physical laws need not apply in the dream
4) The dreamer has a clear memory of the waking world

I sort of re-affirm that I realize these four aspects to the lucid dream. I know that the dream is formed in my mind, under my control, and that my memory of waking life is clear. It helps to ground myself in the nature of the dream (with the added benefit of giving me the confidence to exert great dream control). After the initial soliloquy, I just lightly re-affirm them every now and then to keep me aware. At the same time I also avoid over indulging in exciting activities too early.

Originally Posted by StephL

What most lucid learners including me have as a classical problem is this:
We become lucid - and after no, or not much time at all - we wake up.

Now - mostly this issue is addressed from the stabilization viewpoint - but could it maybe be, that people wake up so easily, because they only get lucid at the very end of their normal dreams in the first place?

I often have a whole lot of dream before it happens, and maybe more experienced DILDers realize, that they are dreaming earlier in the respective REM cycle.
If you mainly gain lucidity for the very reason, that the time is optimal for it, in terms of beginning to wake up a bit already - such micro-lucids might follow directly from that, instead of mainly over-excitement or failing to engage all dream-senses or what have you.

I wonder what the difference is, between people with long lucids and people with at least a tendency to wake up so soon after the realization. Do you think, there is a significant connection?

I hope next time round I will at least have the presence of mind to go for a DEILD.
But would that work, or have a chance to become a long LD, if REM of the previous dream really was at it's very end?

I've suggested this was my problem a few times on the forum. I theorised that if brain chemistry was important, then maybe it was only because my brain chemistry had started to shift towards waking that I was able to LD at all, and waking shortly after was the result.
It was Sageous who suggested that this was not necessarily so (thanks Sageous!), and that the REM period could be extended. DEILD was a simple way of doing this.
I've also come to realise that expectation is everything (almost) in lucid dreaming, so if you think you are likely to wake up as you get lucid, then you will. The problem is the expectation can be a tiny transient thought that you are almost not aware of. The same goes for stabilisation. If you believe that a particular method for stabilisation will work, then it will. If you have any residual doubt, it probably won't work.

Probably the same goes for slowing down and trying not to get too excited in the LD. I guess the sequence might go like this;
1) Realise you're dreaming.
2) Get excited
3) Remember that getting too excited de-stabilises the dream
4) Oops! dream does what you expect and ends!

Alternatively, rubbing hands or spinning probably works the same way when it comes to re-stabilising. If you believe it will work, it probably will.

I'm convinced brain chemistry also comes into it, but I also believe what was said about being able to extend it and doing a DEILD - I just need to learn to stay absolutely still first!

And on the subject of engagement: I have the distinct sense that when my good LDs end due to female interaction, other than perhaps excitement level and perhaps some diabolic expectation that needs to be eradicated, I think it has to do with withdrawing awareness from the dream and into the "self" which translates into the waking body, and waking quickly follows. So the point of this engagement as I understand it is to "spread out your awareness" all throughout the dream, and doing that tends to keep the dream going. And let me tell you it was one of the most rewarding things I've ever done, remembering to "engage" the dream and really *look* around, it was amazingly trippy. Before I had had the feeling that things were vivid, but I never really *looked* at them.

Sivason a few months ago made a very very important point on some similar thread a while back that really struck me as "true" and gave me great hope (I've never been lucid more than 5 minutes). I think it should be broadcast to all beginners who should take this to heart and also hold out hope for the better dreams to come. He said that it takes somewhere around 100 lucid dreams to get to the point where the neural pathways in the brain for lucid dreaming become developed enough for lucidity to start coming earlier and earlier in the REM phase, and thus experience longer lucid dreams. And he said that beginners tend to have short LDs precisely because they only become lucid very shortly before the mind is fully awake near the end of REM.

(Or perhaps it takes that much equivalent elapsed time of awareness work to "take" in the brain).

Now I took one additional thing from this. It's not only the LD count that matters, but the *lucid minutes* that matter. It makes sense -- the longer the brain is in the lucid state, the more "familiar" it becomes in operating in that state and the easier it is to return to this state.

Thus my goal to avoid dream temptations (when sufficiently aware with enough memory to remember this goal), and stay in the dream, lucid, as long as possible. It's an investment in longer and more lucidity in the future.

It's interesting thought that WILD does not seem to necessarily imply longer dreams for beginners, either, their dreams tend to be short, too. Maybe through excitement in that case. Or maybe the beginner lucid brain is just not capable of holding lucidity that long.

I will say, though, that almost *every single "good" lucid dream I've had*, except one, ended by amorously engaging with a DC female. I have the distinct sense that had I been able to avoid the temptation, the dreams could have gone on a lot longer. I can't wait to try, I just need enough good LDs to work on it! Catch-22.

Never give up, the awesome LDs are yet to come.

Interesting - so Sivason said something like I proposed in the OP as well - it would make sense in my eyes..
Even while it is surely possible to prolong REM anyway - but is that easy for beginners?
Great posts otherwise too - thank you guys!