Thread: Immortality or not?

Nothingness doesn't carry no hope. It carries neither hope nor nonhope. In fact, it's not even nothingness, it's no thingness. That's why I find preference in its comparison baffling, because it definitively cannot be compared, nor even definitively anything. Trying to define what it is is only to lie about it. Trying to say it's more or less bearable than anything also means you've got a misconception about it, for there are no conceptions at all in its regard.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Shared dreaming requires relaxing your identification of self with your own person.

Can you explain what this means? You'll have to forgive me -- I often have a difficult time understanding these things.

You say that its baffling to prefer one over the other and yet you choice nothingness over immortality, in a previous post. Unless you're defining your own choice as baffling, I can't help but sense a contradiction. I do, however, agree with you that it is nearly impossible to define, which may contribute to my deep seated fear of it. Would "the absence of existence" be a decent definition.

Originally Posted by splodeymissile

You say that its baffling to prefer one over the other and yet you choice nothingness over immortality, in a previous post. Unless you're defining your own choice as baffling, I can't help but sense a contradiction. I do, however, agree with you that it is nearly impossible to define, which may contribute to my deep seated fear of it. Would "the absence of existence" be a decent definition.

I don't stake enough importance on perpetuating my self, that's all. I choose nothingness so that I may be recycled back into existence and provide space for others to grow and experience as well.

And no, absence of existence is not a proper definition, it's a signpost. It helps to talk about it, but it doesn't define it in that it does not enable one to wrap their head around it.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

I don't stake enough importance on perpetuating my self, that's all. I choose nothingness so that I may be recycled back into existence and provide space for others to grow and experience as well.

And no, absence of existence is not a proper definition, it's a signpost. It helps to talk about it, but it doesn't define it in that it does not enable one to wrap their head around it.

That's a pretty admirable viewpoint, I think. But it doesn't change the fact that you're, in this scenario, at least, choosing one over the other. I may just be misunderstanding you, but it does still seem like that you have a contradiction in your argument. Don't take that as me entirely dismissing your point, though. Its just odd to me. And I agree with you on its indefinability, which again contributes to how terrifying I consider it to be.

(Every already remains outside your definition of it, anyways. This is only terrifying until it's embraced)

Perhaps you're right. I choose death for no reason relating to death itself, but for the release I gain now from knowing eventually everything that matters to me will cease to matter. All significance I place upon anything has a finite lifespan. This knowledge releases me from all my burden and stress. It gives me peace. So I find life right now more tolerable, not the nothingness that waits at its end.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

How the fuck did you logic that one?

Isn't having your mind and brain better than having nothing? I also wish for immortality, even if I would spend it in a cave for iternity. Then, I would yell "yes! Lucky me knows LDing!!"

Are you asking me this question so we can repeat the exact same conversation I just had with splodey?

Originally Posted by splodeymissile

And I agree with you on its indefinability, which again contributes to how terrifying I consider it to be.

Your waking life experience is only a dim, distorted reflection of what's going on in your mind and around you. And what's really going on involves all the weird and undefined elements of death, among other things. So I don't understand how a person would be terrified of death without already being terrified of living. As I experience it, one contains the other.

Consider the experience of an Alzheimer's patient. He's already 95% dead when he dies. What do we expect will happen when he dies that's very remarkable? We're all Alzheimer's patients. And yet, life goes on. What you value does not disappear when you die, because its not fully dependent on you even now. You're like a stone its standing on, and when the stone sinks its still standing on other stones.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

I choose death for no reason relating to death itself, but for the release I gain now from knowing eventually everything that matters to me will cease to matter.

That sounds a little bit like choosing despair as an alternative to anxiety. But I guess it makes sense in relation to things that will actually be lost, to the extent that its clear what those thing are.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

Are you asking me this question so we can repeat the exact same conversation I just had with splodey?

No
We have different opinions because we have different beliefs of what will happen after death. So there is nothing to debate, really.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Isn't having your mind and brain better than having nothing?"

No, because if you're alive someone else won't be. Populations ebb and flow, but in the very long run, on average, every person is replaced with exactly one other person, who is replaced by one other person. Your wish amounts to a wish to deny life to those other people.

For an immortal, part of rejuvenation would be letting go of what is no longer relevant to make room for what is fresh and new. Is continuity of identity so important? It is like being afraid to fall asleep at night. Yes you go to sleep knowing that you'll be 'you' again the next day. But either suddenly or gradually 'you' have to change anyway, or you will be a caveman or a dinosaur in your world. Avoiding death would be like avoiding sleep by resting semi-redundant parts of your brain at different times. The fixation doesn't actually avoid or accomplish anything.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

No
We have different opinions because we have different beliefs of what will happen after death. So there is nothing to debate, really.

This is not true. His opinion is based on the belief that death is oblivion, just like yours is. There's nothing to debate because you're just making stuff up.

Par of my belief is that we are matter only. Not creating new lives doesn't mean we are denying that person a life, because a human is nothing. He is just matter, when build, has those expectation, beliefs, wishes. So, we are really not denying anyone from anything.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Par of my belief is that we are matter only. Not creating new lives doesn't mean we are denying that person a life, because a human is nothing. He is just matter, when build, has those expectation, beliefs, wishes. So, we are really not denying anyone from anything.

Shadowofwind is right. I hold no certainty on oblivion or continuation because my philosophical understanding of death is that when it happens, the result is the same. Everything that occurred in this life will cease to be meaningful. If we continue in some way or another, this life will matter as much as a dream woken from. That is to say, perhaps we learn something from the experience, but other than that it becomes purposeless.

And, to state for the umpteenth time, I stake absolutely no certainty in life after death. I have experienced death on psychedelic drugs, but that experience is irrelevant because I do not hold out for an afterlife. My view on death remains the same. It is not despair, it is liberation. It reminds me now that I need be burdened by nothing for eventually my burdens will be lifted. I need hold back not an inch of joy that I may possibly touch at this very moment. I have no reason to hold myself back from it, no reason to save from myself any bit of enjoyment I can possibly leech out of this moment. And the power to know this comes from knowledge of oblivion, knowledge of the eventual destruction of my physical form and with it, in your presumptuous and impetuous reasoning, my consciousness; and with it, in my own presumptuous and impetuous reasoning, all its significance. And the two are the same, our views on the afterlife remain philosophically the same. Whether or not such a thing exists, it is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by splodeymissile

Perhaps I've got an unusual phobia of nothingness and I may be vastly over exaggerating the bearability (surprised its not a word) of that situation, but I'd rather experience anything than nothing.

I'm sorry, but this fear is completely unfounded. You cannot experience nothing. Nothing is the lack of an experience. I think what you may be actually fearing is the end of "me". The idea of "Me Me Me, all for ME!" is the source of most of the evil in this world. That's the reason people commonly say that money is the root of all evil. It wouldn't be if money didn't by things for "me".

As for nothingness, or oblivion, I've experienced it before. It's easy to recreate. Just get super drunk, and smoke a bowl of the best bud you can find. If you're anything like I am, you will pass out, and you will not dream of anything (or at least not remember anything when you wake up, which is arguably the same thing). As an analogy for death I think it works, since just before you pass out, the only thing you can think of is how tired you are. You will look toward sleep as a welcome comfort. For those of you that believe in reincarnation, the analogy continues: I've heard birth is a painful experience, but so is waking up with a killer hangover.

And that's precisely why I abhor nothingness: a combination of selfish desire for continuation (which, to an extent, most humans have), a fear of the ultimate unknown and the (perhaps unfounded) belief that no matter how bad things get, they can (and will, if we're dealing with infinities) get better. At any rate, rational or no, my belief and fear of nothing after death, has allowed me to appreciate the value of life much more than before. If it ever came down to a choice between my immortality and the life of another, I like to think that I'd choose to save the one.

No matter how good things get, they will inevitably get worse, too. Either way your life is meaningless, whether it lasts forever or not. Either way all that can matter is now and the happiness you pull from it. Death simply reminds me not to procrastinate celebrating life.

1) A selfish desire: Realize that even if immortality is attainable, it will not be attained in our lifetime. The first step is to find a cure for all cancer. If we live forever, cells will have to replicate indefinitely, the more replications the more copy errors you will have. We are currently using very primitive chemotherapy agents, and their main side effect is that they are all carinogenic. So you may kill the cancer but you will cause more in the long-run. ACCEPT WHAT YOU CANNOT CHANGE. Eat some magic mushrooms, it helped me immensely to realize this fact.

2) Fear of the Ultimate Unknown: You don't know everything about the universe currently, but you seem to be happy to live in it forever. So I guess I don't understand where your argument is here.

3)No matter how bad things get...: Imagine living until the last stages of the universe. Either it expands into nothing, in which case you would freeze to death and if you're immortal, experience the feeling of having all your molecules slowly dissolve into photons and finally to have the photons sizzle out...or the universe collapses and you get to experience the feeling of all matter and energy condensing back into a singularity. Either way it doesn't sound like it gets better for physical beings.

While its certainly unlikely to be attainable in our lifetimes, I don't believe its outright impossible. Perhaps I'm too optimistic. At any rate, I do celebrate life. I merely wish to celebrate it, as much as possible. I do get your second point, but given an infinite amount of time, the universe can be understood. Nothingness itself, might be understood, given enough time, at which point, I may stop fearing it. With regards to point 3, considering the time scale here, whats to stop humanity (or whatever we become) from developing technology to prevent or protect from heat death or outright leaving for a new universe. Almost entirely unlikely, but you've got to have hope. And, personally, the lack of any set meaning in the universe, just gives humanity the excuse to set its own, so, even if I am inevitably going to die, that doesn't make anything I've accomplished, any less valid.

Originally Posted by FoxyGrandma3000

3)No matter how bad things get...: Imagine living until the last stages of the universe. Either it expands into nothing, in which case you would freeze to death and if you're immortal, experience the feeling of having all your molecules slowly dissolve into photons and finally to have the photons sizzle out...or the universe collapses and you get to experience the feeling of all matter and energy condensing back into a singularity. Either way it doesn't sound like it gets better for physical beings.

You know what? I think if I managed to live for the many billions of years that span now and the end of this universe, I would probably either be a) mightily embarrassed that I haven't thought of a way to step out of the way of this current collapsing universe, b) a being of such knowledge and power that dying universes are meaningless, or c) a being with the deep wisdom gleaned from billions of years of experience and learning, that that final dissolution would be not only understood but welcomed, and perhaps observed with interest.

Contrary to the popular depictions on TV (where everyone seems to hate it),immortality does not equal an inability to change, to grow, and to learn not only new things but new ways to exist, and, yes Original Poster, to seek and achieve as yet unimagined levels of happiness and joy. To assume, FoxyGrandma, that you would be the same person -- even physically -- after several billion years is short-sighted at best. We can change dramatically in just our given four-score & ten; why would that changing stop?

I think if I were still around at the end of the universe, I would be mature enough to appreciate the fact that I was around for billions of years, and that was a good thing, and mature enough to understand that, given such a long life, finally sinking back into a singularity (if unavoidable) isn't such a bad end.

Originally Posted by splodeymissile

While its certainly unlikely to be attainable in our lifetimes, I don't believe its outright impossible. Perhaps I'm too optimistic. At any rate, I do celebrate life. I merely wish to celebrate it, as much as possible. I do get your second point, but given an infinite amount of time, the universe can be understood. Nothingness itself, might be understood, given enough time, at which point, I may stop fearing it. With regards to point 3, considering the time scale here, whats to stop humanity (or whatever we become) from developing technology to prevent or protect from heat death or outright leaving for a new universe. Almost entirely unlikely, but you've got to have hope. And, personally, the lack of any set meaning in the universe, just gives humanity the excuse to set its own, so, even if I am inevitably going to die, that doesn't make anything I've accomplished, any less valid.

We don't even understand any of the things we think we understand. No matter how much data we acquire, certainty is simply not in the realm of human perception. Even if we live forever.

Becoming immortal is one of the last things on my mind. In a single lifespan I can follow my ambitions, raise a family, work at a job I love, improve my art and music and lucid dreaming abilities and even better the world. What more can I do that will be meaningful to me if I lived forever. What purpose would it have?

Also, I don't think being immortal is congruous with the brain we own. Our existence is built around a short enough lifespan. Our memory and our social behavior is dependent on who are in this day. To be immortal, significant changes would have to made to us, to not only allow us to last forever but more importantly be able to cope with it. The moment a human is altered in such a way, would he be part of the same race we are?

^^ I don't know, Dutchraptor, that answer might just be a bit too clear-eyed for these environs!

As long as I'm here:

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

The moment a human is altered in such a way, would he be part of the same race we are?

No, he would not. Would that be a bad thing?