Thread: And yet another headband? DreamNET

Thanks Michael.

Originally Posted by IAmCoder

Elite. I would like to see if I can write a plugin for it if you don't mind testing...

Sure. No problem!

Originally Posted by IAmCoder

And if you have already mastered two signals or a strong and weak one, you can use them in various sequences to spell out the alphabet and communicate something more specific; "I am dreaming of inner space again and have a full grasp in this state of how a circuit of neurons can create such a simulation. The next thing I need to add to my AI project to replicate it is TRANSMITTERS." Or something a little simpler like "FLYING!1".
For security reasons I would require conscious approval the next morning of any communication other than custom texts for "dream state detected" or "lucid dream signal detected". Freudian slips...

That was good

So, reviewing the thread I came up with a couple of questions for Coder:

Originally Posted by dreambh

I don't think this DreamNET in particular is a "Pay and get lucid!" product, but it is more of an experimentation platform.

1- Would you agree with that statement? I find the kickstarter page quite vague. Actually, sometimes it sounds like the stated purpose of DreamNet is just helping with dream recall
2- Earlier on in this thread we discussed about the accuracy of the Neurosky EEG sensors. What can you say about that? Is it reliable enough? What have you found when testing it out?
3- After all this Morse code stuff it looks like we are discussing the first "affordable dreaming-to-waking communication device". Could that actually happen?
I understand DreamNet is not your project, so you may not have answers for everything up here.


PS: Regarding the morse code, I just remembered there is a book with a quick way to learn it. Here is a link to a brief description of the chapter (trying not to break any spam rule) Mentat Wiki: MindPerformanceHacks 2fLearnMorseCodeLikeAnEfficiencyExpert

Thanks!

Originally Posted by dreambh

I don't think this DreamNET in particular is a "Pay and get lucid!" product, but it is more of an experimentation platform.

Originally Posted by dreambh

1- Would you agree with that statement? I find the kickstarter page quite vague. Actually, sometimes it sounds like the stated purpose of DreamNet is just helping with dream recall

1- Yes, I agree with that statement. I will ask Bill to see what he can do to make it more clear, or lucid - if you will. But I don't agree that it is just to help with dream recall. The purpose is to monitor, record, gather and share sleep research data. The things I hope to find are primarily the effects of different audio tracks, induction methods and substances on dreams and lucidity. And secondarily: correlations between average sleep and dream lengths and seasons, due to variances in daylight during summer and winter affecting the pineal gland; holidays like Thanksgiving due to tryptophan, the precursor to serotonin and melatonin, from turkey consumption; and New Years Eve due to REM rebound after staying awake longer than normal. Latitude and longitude will need to be logged for some of that and even variables like age and gender might reveal something. The database is open to everyone and the list of things to find may be endless, I may even have intentionally left out a thing or two to increase my chances of being the one to find it.

Originally Posted by dreambh

2- Earlier on in this thread we discussed about the accuracy of the Neurosky EEG sensors. What can you say about that? Is it reliable enough? What have you found when testing it out?

2- NeuroSky sent me a MindWave for free for my work a year or two ago and I can only say good things about it. The ratings on Amazon aren't 5/5 only because the sample size isn't big enough yet and Bluetooth requires patience under some conditions. And not everyone has had a chance to try Lucid Scribe yet! It is accurate enough to pick up my eye movements, which is what I use to trigger the audio tracks, and even accurate enough to draw Morse Code patterns with my eyes. But electrode placement is of essence. With my OpenEEG device, for example, if I clip the reference electrode to my ear or tape it to the bone behind my ear, eye movements are mountains and the EEG signal is pristine. But if I slip the electrode into the front of my halograph along with the other electrodes; flatline. I exaggerate, but you get the idea.

Originally Posted by dreambh

3- After all this Morse code stuff it looks like we are discussing the first "affordable dreaming-to-waking communication device". Could that actually happen?
I understand DreamNet is not your project, so you may not have answers for everything up here.

3- Yes. I am one feature away from streaming live data, which could be used to find and connect two users that are in the dream state at the same time. And I have some ancient TTS (text-to-speech) code that I can cut and paste from Lightened Dream to create dream-to-dream communication. I have no illusions of shared dreaming and understand enough about neurons and neural connections to see that dreams are hallucinations isolated inside the skull. I just believe that the dream state, where the part of the brain that is responsible for processing the electrical input from the eyes and consumes most of the processing power during the day... is powered off, and thus gives us access to untold levels of creativity and mental ability to connect remote thoughts in novel ways. But the Morse Code stuff is just a side project / freak show / hobby of mine and should stop distracting from the research value!

And thanks for the book reference!

Wow! Thank you Coder for your thorough answers, all this looks really interesting!
Oh, just checked the kickstarter page and looks like Robert Waggoner already pledged for one, that's serious stuff!

I'll be camping for a week (no internet) so I look forward to check on how the KS campaign and this thread are doing when I come back!

Originally Posted by dreambh

PS: Regarding the morse code, I just remembered there is a book with a quick way to learn it...

The best way to remember it I found is to think of the characters in a way that uses sound (like music) in your head, rather than thinking of dot dash, etc. E.g:

A= di dah
B= dah di di dit
C= dah di dah dit
D= dah di dit
E= dit

etc.

0= dah dah dah dah dah
1= di dah dah dah dah
2= di di dah dah dah
3= di di di dah dah

and so on. (Dah di dah dah dit)

Originally Posted by Highlander

The best way to remember it I found is to think of the characters in a way that uses sound (like music) in your head, rather than thinking of dot dash, etc. E.g:

A= di dah
B= dah di di dit
C= dah di dah dit
D= dah di dit
E= dit

etc.

0= dah dah dah dah dah
1= di dah dah dah dah
2= di di dah dah dah
3= di di di dah dah

and so on. (Dah di dah dah dit)

The method in the book is very similar, it just uses easy to remember little sentences or words, related to the letter or number, and strong syllables are the "dah" (and sometimes uses music too, I think the example at the link is V=Fifth symphony="di di di dah")

"for example, if I clip the reference electrode to my ear or tape it to the bone behind my ear, eye movements are mountains and the EEG signal is pristine. But if I slip the electrode into the front of my halograph along with the other electrodes; flatline. I exaggerate, but you get the idea."

So would you say a kickstarter like Aurora, where the two contacts and the reference ground are all placed on the forehead in the same straight line would probably be inaccurate, and faint, or do you think it will make a big impact? I thought something fishy when I saw everything is lined up in one spot. Not saying their product won't work at all, just that given they want $175, when the mind wave (with the same sensors they use) can be found for 70, you would expect them to have a decent placement.

Originally Posted by pointofbeing

So would you say a kickstarter like Aurora, where the two contacts and the reference ground are all placed on the forehead in the same straight line would probably be inaccurate, and faint, or do you think it will make a big impact? I thought something fishy when I saw everything is lined up in one spot. Not saying their product won't work at all, just that given they want $175, when the mind wave (with the same sensors they use) can be found for 70, you would expect them to have a decent placement.

That is what I am saying - the MindWave has a clip for the earlobe. But that could easily be patched with two Band-Aids and a wire and is the last thing that has been worrying me about that campaign.

I have been unable to sleep, perhaps because the moon happens to be full again, but I suspect more and more that it is because of the battle that rages in my soul without victor.

Because the test results of 50% don't agree with my findings. And I fear that if they are not indicative of the general user experience, the public's good faith in lucid dream induction aids will be hurt again, as EV once put it so eloquently.

And they haven't shared a single of their sleep logs. I also can't see how they would have recorded a session, let alone induced lucidity in themselves with the software that can be seen in the videos. Or why the line of code hasn't been written to make a version available that works with the NeuroSky MindWave so hardcore backers that already have one could have taken a look so long. What type of audio tracks at which volume and with which light pattern?

They also don't seem to have considered my findings that I shared with them before they launched the campaign that the REM sleep phase according to sleep staging and (rapid) eye movements are not synonymous, and I admit that I myself have repeatedly used the acronym incorrectly where I meant to say the words, but:

Originally Posted by science.education.nih.gov

REM sleep and dreaming can be dissociated from one another, as seen after the administration of certain drugs or in cases of brain damage either to the pons (loss of REM sleep but not of dreaming) or to the frontal areas (no dreaming but REM sleep cycle unaffected).

That being said - and because I can see that, I can also see their intentions. And they are pure. But that is not the only element required for this form of alchemy. I feel I was able to save the backers from falling off the cliff in an other incarnation thanks to Highlander sleuthing the name of the amp, but can't stop them from wandering into the desert.

This DreamNet kickstarter is not working very well, got $10,000 pledged by now (and estimates are it is going to get $20,000) not too close to its $30,000 goal. Well, still more than 10 days to see what happens, things might get better.
I wonder, why "easy lucidity" projects like Remee (got $500,000) or Aurora (got $250,000) are so successful, even though LDers (or informed wannabe-LDers like me) know that they won't work as their creators claim, but then a serious research tool for LDers like the DreamNet project with support from people like Robbert Waggoner, Daniel Love or Ryan Hurd (*) is struggling to get $30,000?
Is it because the target audience for the previous ones is general public/non-LDers and the target audience for the latter is only LDers? Is LDing such a fringe hobby?
Is it because LDers are skeptical / critical thinkers by definition and therefore need more evidence in order to back a project like this? Or is it simply a matter of bad timing, being the last kickstarter after several "similar" projects (Remee, Luci, Aurora, NeuroOn...)?
I'm just frustrated that other (not very good) projects were so successful, and then this one which IMHO is a really interesting and serious effort to push the LDing field further might not even come to existence...

(*)
Robbert Waggoner: *Prohibited Link Removed*
Daniel Love: https://twitter.com/lucid_dreaming/s...16092192296960
Ryun Hurd says in one of his articles:

DreamNET by Synapse
I’m pretty excited about this device and am going to go into more detail because it’s promising to be an innovation leader.
The proposed mask is more than just another mask that helps you go lucid. Rather, the company is positioning itself to be a grassroots launching pad for lucid dreaming research.
...

It has to do with the way they were marketed. The aurora made it look like so simple, and they marketed it like a fool proof 100% accuracy, you are dreaming poof machine. The product you showed was way more technical in it's description, and did not guarantee insta lucid dream's, or control. In fact it marketed dream research extensively, and made it out like they want you to wake up and remember you dream, the noobs on kickstarter, will go, why support this when this wakes me up, when this other one has flashy magic lights that tell me every time I'm dreaming. They never once mentioned it makes you lucid. Which is honest, because you make you lucid, the other device Aurora is marketed with horrifically overtly impossible claims of instant everything (unless your a trained dreamer those lights will just be incorporated into your dream), I had a conversation with the programer of the Aurora on this very site and he beat around dodged and generally ignored the fact his product has awful placement of it's passive ground electrode, if it's even a ground at all. I kept on telling him you are going to get a bunch of noise with the electrodes placed on the same spot on the forehead, and he acted like he had no idea what I was talking about XD.

Good ideas simply do not need kickstarter to get funding and this sounds like a good idea to me. I am backing for one if it looks okay.

Hey IamCoder, only just picked up on this thread. I don't see why up and down eye movements should be so difficult. If the electrodes on the forehead are moved one up, the other down a bit, there should be a good signal. I'll have a try with my headband and report back. The eye its such a large dipole that it's easy to detect. My electrodes are just 3 in a line across the forehead, and it goes of scale for a strong flick left or right (eeg-smt and 2 active electrodes).

I had a lucid dream where I managed to try morse code with my (dream) eyes.

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/high...etc-dild-55269

The next step would be to try and record this on Lucid Scribe via the EEG.

@pointofbeing Yes, you're so right!
@Goldenspark DreamNet only has one sensor in the forehead
@Highlander Very nice dream! You could really put a DreamNet to good use, he he.

Originally Posted by dreambh

@Goldenspark DreamNet only has one sensor in the forehead

Is that one differential channel, with 2 main electrodes and a reference electrode?
If so, that one channel can still pick up vertical eye movements if the 2 main electrodes are placed slightly one above the other either side of the eyes.

Hi, just wondering if the infrared red detectors are dangerous to the eye. I have Remdreamer pro but am concerned that having a IR zapping at the eye all night could cause long term damage? Can anyone shine light on this?

Thanks
Ezzo

The DreamNet headband is EEG based via the NeuroSky ThinkGear AM chip. No light needs to be shined!

Ezzo, why are you asking this question over and over all over the show?

I did my best to answer it for you here: http://www.dreamviews.com/lucid-aids...amer-safe.html.

But will try again here for posterity: the reason you can't see infrared is because it is too weak for the eyes to detect. If it were any weaker, it would be radio, which you are bathing in all the time... see the light spectrum for reference:



A good visualization would be to imagine visible light as the waves of the ocean versus infrared as the ripples in a pond. You can stand on the shore and feel the ocean waves crash against your legs, but won't feel much at the edge of a pond.

I now have over a thousand hours logged with infrared shining on my eyes without ill effect... here I am this morning taking a short break to bask my lizard in IR:

That reminds me that I badly want to tape that raspi to me bed for some time now and poke around with your nice app

Do it! And let me know if you need help sourcing an infrared light.

Originally Posted by IAmCoder

Ezzo, why are you asking this question over and over all over the show?

I did my best to answer it for you here: http://www.dreamviews.com/lucid-aids...amer-safe.html.

But will try again here for posterity: the reason you can't see infrared is because it is too weak for the eyes to detect. If it were any weaker, it would be radio, which you are bathing in all the time... see the light spectrum for reference:



A good visualization would be to imagine visible light as the waves of the ocean versus infrared as the ripples in a pond. You can stand on the shore and feel the ocean waves crash against your legs, but won't feel much at the edge of a pond.

I now have over a thousand hours logged with infrared shining on my eyes without ill effect... here I am this morning taking a short break to bask my lizard in IR:

Hi, im sorry to doubt you. I do have an overactive / anxious imagination but I can see that you are experienced in this field. Your experiments look very interesting. THe RemDreamers website has this passage of text.

The REM-Dreamer uses infrared sensors to detect when you are in REM (dreaming) sleep. At that point the REM-Dreamer gives you sound and light cues (beeps and flashing lights) to remind you that you are dreaming. Thus, external world stimuli are transferred to the world of your dreams, and it becomes easy to achieve lucidity.

As no light is visible in the mask (apart from the flashing LED cues), i assumed (probably wrongly) that the sensor that was picking up my eye movements could be dangerous. When I asked around, someone mentioned about the negative / harmful effects of EMF (electro magnetic frequencies) and some studies had been done to show they can be harmful to the eye.

It was this information that made me wary of using my dream mask.

I should have been more descriptive with my original posting but as someone with no experience in electronics, emf's, LCD lights or especially Infrared rem detectors, i kinda got over cautious. If its 100% safe then I can wear with confidence (and hopefully get a few lucid dreams)

Also, sorry for multiple postings, my bad

Ezzo :-)

No worries! I hope I have put your worries to rest now...

Originally Posted by Goldenspark

Hey IamCoder, only just picked up on this thread. I don't see why up and down eye movements should be so difficult. If the electrodes on the forehead are moved one up, the other down a bit, there should be a good signal. I'll have a try with my headband and report back. The eye its such a large dipole that it's easy to detect. My electrodes are just 3 in a line across the forehead, and it goes of scale for a strong flick left or right (eeg-smt and 2 active electrodes).

Hey Goldenspark, only seeing this now... and since this thread is now revived; thought I'd show off my slightly more modern Morse Code typing with EEG:



Reading the old posts in the thread again - lots of wise words; the voices tell me that the lost souls in the desert of the Aurora are about to awaken. And hopefully soon - I see that IWinks is now getting people to cough up $300 for a pre-order: double the amount they started their scampaign with.

I think the nerosky mindwave headset probably sucks for lucid dreaming application

but I seriously love it for meditation with realtime feedback

Soooo Very relaxing, luv it.

And playing on this app.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8evZzwtK9dQ

It's wonderful zen-ing out and tuning into music and pretty graphics (mindway is prettier than nebulus app)
They seem to respond differently, nebulus if you concentrate on your breath you can stay for longer , delta waves ???
(Yes I have no idea ^^ you are expert)