Thread: RemDreamer - Is it safe?

Pretty sure it's an IR sensor, from looking at the site. It's not zapping your eyeball. Just picking up IR light.

IR sensors work by emitting IR light and measuring the (differences) in the reflections received back.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

IR sensors work by emitting IR light and measuring the (differences) in the reflections received back.

Erm... 2 replys but no answer :-/ The question was - Is the infra red detector safe for the eye

thank you
Ezzo

I recall some study about this, Google will probably find it for you.

google "ir sensor eye safety", the link at the top is the one I was remembering.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

IR sensors work by emitting IR light and measuring the (differences) in the reflections received back.

It doesn't have to. It can, but it's called a sensor for a reason. They can just sense IR light, or emit and sense.

Also, ezzolucid, assuming it's just a sensor, my reply was my answer. If you care to provide any logical thought in to what I was saying. A sensor could never be damaging since all it's doing is picking up IR light.


Anyway, here.
eyes - Is it safe to look at infrared LEDs? - Biology Stack Exchange

I have shone infra-red at my eyes for hundreds of hours to log these beauties:



And can report that my vision is still intact.

It also doesn't interfere with sleep at all. Blue light, on the other side of the spectrum has been found to keep you awake - that is how f.lux and Twilight improve your sleep by cutting out blue light.

Have a look at the spectrum:



The reason you can't see infrared is because it is too weak for the eyes to detect. If it were any weaker, it would be radio, which you are bathing in all the time...

Hi, just wondering if the infrared red detectors are dangerous to the eye. I have Remdreamer pro but am concerned that having a IR zapping at the eye all night could cause long term damage? Can anyone shine light on this?

Thanks
Ezzo

Found this in the Science and Mathematics / Physics section: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...1164348AA4WUhr

Ur cousins wrong. Infrared is invisible to the naked eye, and cannot blind u. Don't believe me??? go to radio shack and buy an infrared light. find sum1 who u really h8 and hook it up to the battery and shine it in their face!!! (even tho this wont actually do anything @ least u have your answer....)

But no, it wont blind u. In fact, IR light is used for night vision or heat vision goggles... idk which, but they wouldnt be very effective if they blind every1 who saw their light....

Originally Posted by ezzolucid

Hi, just wondering if the infrared red detectors are dangerous to the eye. I have Remdreamer pro but am concerned that having a IR zapping at the eye all night could cause long term damage? Can anyone shine light on this?

Thanks
Ezzo

I merged this second "is it safe" thread with the original. No need to create more than one thread asking about the IR safety. Thanks.

Originally Posted by IAmCoder

I have shone infra-red at my eyes for hundreds of hours to log these beauties:



And can report that my vision is still intact.

It also doesn't interfere with sleep at all. Blue light, on the other side of the spectrum has been found to keep you awake - that is how f.lux and Twilight improve your sleep by cutting out blue light.

Have a look at the spectrum:



The reason you can't see infrared is because it is too weak for the eyes to detect. If it were any weaker, it would be radio, which you are bathing in all the time...

Hi, sorry to continue my line of questioning but I have been having a talk with electronics experts on a forum. I have showed them pictures of the RemDreamer and below is the link to the conversation

They all raise concerns over the saftey of the RemDreamer. Im a bit lost, can you please see if they have any valid points, thanks

infrared sensors / detectors | All About Circuits

Ezzo

^^ For what it's worth, electronics expert does not equal physiology expert.

Given also that the opinions to which you linked are fairly mild and based more on personal worry than any actual facts, you probably shouldn't base any of your own concerns on what they say.

Also for what it's worth, I'm no expert, but I would guess that our eyes are exposed to much more powerful light every day than the flashes emitted by a REM dreamer -- no matter how close to your eyes the emitters might be. I would imagine that LED's or infrared bulbs have nothing on the full spectrum onslaught of your average sunny day. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ For what it's worth, electronics expert does not equal physiology expert.

Given also that the opinions to which you linked are fairly mild and based more on personal worry than any actual facts, you probably shouldn't base any of your own concerns on what they say.

Also for what it's worth, I'm no expert, but I would guess that our eyes are exposed to much more powerful light every day than the flashes emitted by a REM dreamer -- no matter how close to your eyes the emitters might be. I would imagine that LED's or infrared bulbs have nothing on the full spectrum onslaught of your average sunny day. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Hi Sageous, its not the LED flashing lights that concern me, rather the infrared detectors.

Here the thing ... I have asked for months about the saftley of the RemDreamer in multiple forums, expert advice and all over the place and noone has been able to say that the RemDreamer is 100% safe to use, and thats a worry!

The only person that has told me its 100% safe is the manufacturer of the Remdreamer (but they would say that i guess)

Until we (RemDreamer Owners) get an assurance of its safety should it really still be used?

Ezzo

^^ I was talking about the infrared detectors as well; sorry if that was not clear.

No scientist in his right and responsible mind will say anything is 100% anything, and that rule probably follows with experts and technicians as well... something can always go wrong.

My point above was that the light used by the REMDreamer -- including infrared -- exists in our daily lives, and in volumes far greater than a little machine can produce. There is very likely nothing being emitted by the REMDreamer that you haven't experienced in life already, and your eyes can handle its infrared emissions just as well as it handles infrared light at any other given time (basically by ignoring or not processing it, BTW). Again, I could be wrong about this point because I am not an expert, but I have a feeling that I'm at least in the right ballpark.

Because of its tiny market potential, you will very likely never get, say, a government study on REMDreamer that can at least point out any risks (though even that will not assure you that the machine is 100% safe). You will likely be on your own when deciding to use it.

Sometimes you just have to make a choice based on what you know (or can find out) from available information, and that choice might include some risk. There are very few things -- hell, there are probably no things -- that are 100% safe, and you simply must decide if their use is worth the risk. We all take risks every time we choose to do things like step into a car, step off a curb, or step into our own bathrooms, and those risks are probably greater by orders of many magnitude than being exposed to some infrared, but we take those risks without thinking about it, because if we didn't we would not get anything done, go anywhere, or be very clean (also a risk). You simply must decide if the LD's you might get from the REMDreamer are worth whatever risk is posed by exposure to infrared sensors.

Finally and anecdotally, I used LaBerge's DreamLight pretty steadily for a couple of years back in the 90's. I'm pretty sure it also used infrared sensors, and I am very sure that it did no harm whatsoever.

Then there is the other option: learn to LD on your own without the aid of machines or drugs, and you will never have to be concerned about the risks involved with them.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Because of its tiny market potential, you will very likely never get, say, a government study on REMDreamer that can at least point out any risks (though even that will not assure you that the machine is 100% safe). You will likely be on your own when deciding to use it.

I was heading in to this thread to say exactly this, .

Then there is the other option: learn to LD on your own without the aid of machines or drugs, and you will never have to be concerned about the risks involved with them.

...and this! So a hearty "+1" from me.

p.s. I think dream technology is cool. I will certainly buy a N2D2, that is, if LaBerge ever ships it (the Lucidity Institute has finally just stopped answering my monthly queries about just when the next *status update* will be published). I may purchase an Aurora, but right now those are the only two items that garner my interest.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Then there is the other option: learn to LD on your own without the aid of machines or drugs, and you will never have to be concerned about the risks involved with them.

Just make sure you do a full reality check before deciding to fly out of a window of a ten-storey building.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

p.s. I think dream technology is cool. I will certainly buy a N2D2, that is, if LaBerge ever ships it (the Lucidity Institute has finally just stopped answering my monthly queries about just when the next *status update* will be published). I may purchase an Aurora, but right now those are the only two items that garner my interest.

I would pass on the latter option personally. Why waste $300 on something unproven. Just think how much galantamine you could buy instead?

Great points Sageous & Fryingman. I agree with your assesment of everyday risks, in fact I have a tattoo on my arm that says 'Maximus Periculum In Vita Est Ut Nunquam Take Unus' which is Latin for 'The Biggest Risk in Life is to never taken one' I am a risk taker in all areas of life and will throw caution to wind to get what I want ..... Just not if it concerns the eyes!

I will wait for my Aurora which has no infrared sensors at all. I still believe with some tweaking the Aroura will be the best DIELD device in the World

Ezzo

Originally Posted by Highlander

Just make sure you do a full reality check before deciding to fly out of a window of a ten-storey building.

Just woke from a LD where I did this in fact: made sure I *flew* out the window first, not jumped.

I would pass on the latter option personally. Why waste $300 on something unproven. Just think how much galantamine you could buy instead?

As you noted, it's personal. I think spending money on cars beyond anything that is simple and functional is a massive waste of money, and I drive my cars into the ground before buying a new ones (my first new car purchase still runs, 26 years later). I find the idea of DEILD tech very interesting, so for me, it is not a waste.

I've been through my "try all the supplements" phase and I'm pretty much done with them. I do not like the way they make me feel, and I don't want any physiological side-effects affecting my dreaming.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Just woke from a LD where I did this in fact: made sure I *flew* out the window first, not jumped.

I have had at least 3 (lucid) dreams where I hesitated as the dream scenario was that real so I did have to question myself at the time, although I have phased, flew or jumped out of windows in other lucid dreams, hence the reference.

Source: My dream journal.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

As you noted, it's personal. I think spending money on cars beyond anything that is simple and functional is a massive waste of money, and I drive my cars into the ground before buying a new ones (my first new car purchase still runs, 26 years later). I find the idea of DEILD tech very interesting, so for me, it is not a waste.

I agree mostly. Iv'e done the same with cars and gadgets as I'm part of the 'make do and mend' generation rather than the 'my Iphone 6, six months down the line, but out of date', generation.

Thing is if DEILD works for you then great. Aurora is not being marketed as such. They claim it is the best thing since sliced bread which is misleading, but as I said before - it is yet to prove itself in the field.

Look what happened with the Remee, etc.

There must be cheaper ways of initiating DEILD?

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I've been through my "try all the supplements" phase and I'm pretty much done with them. I do not like the way they make me feel, and I don't want any physiological side-effects affecting my dreaming.

I have no responsibilities. I have done that, been there, bought societies t-shirt myself as well, etc. I don't work for the banks anymore!

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I don't want any physiological side-effects affecting my dreaming.

Diet and alcohol also affect dreams. If you drew the line totally then you would rule out beer (delays REM) and turkey meat as a source of Tryptophan (albeit natural) even if the bird has been injected with growth hormones to fatten it up for Thanksgiving or Christmas, etc.

BTW, you mentioned the hallowed name previously (LaBerge) along with his upcoming product (ND?) Did you get any response or feedback in regard to your emails; was he too busy or did you fill his spam box?

Getting derailed a bit here, but: I avoid alcohol [getting drunk stopped being interesting a long time ago, it just makes me sluggish and want to sleep, "eh, gramps?!"] almost entirely, and am currently on a health-kick-get-back-into-shape thing. I try to emphasize healthy, particularly brain-healthy, foods. What's wrong with turkey? I don't live in the US: where I live, produce and meat are organic and ecologically clean by default. Still, I think there's a world of distance between pharmaceuticals and diet in terms of ability to produce potentially long-term deleterious brain alterations.

Actually I meant EILD, not DEILD. I knew exactly what remee was (lights on a timer) before I got one. I'm a bit skeptical about lights as a signaling mechanism via my remee experience, having noticed lights in dreams only a few times despite over 100 uses (eventually I set it to go off every 5 minutes starting around 5 hours, and still I only noticed them in a dream twice, both times waking me instantly). I will reserve judgement though until a good REM-detecting device comes along.

I got quick responses from a lucidity institute assistant (never LaBerge himself) for about year [I asked once a month, because the answer always was, "The N2D2 status update should be out in a few weeks"], then I suppose she got tired and just stopped responding.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

What's wrong with turkey?

I just used turkey/tryptophan as an example really.

It is good to live healthy and do things in moderation.
I don't necessarily see supplements as a bad thing. Sure I wouldn't advise a beginner to take G. (as an example) as the dream experiences can be very intense. You have to be prepared - Source: Personal experience.
I never had any problems. I took a very small dose, infrequently.
You were more at risk from being 'spooked' for life than brain damage!

You are more at risk of being run over, or from the aluminium content in certain foods, water and long term brain damage from other heavy metals.

Example - I don't have mercury-amalgam fillings in my teeth for that reason, although I probably eat junk food sometimes.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Actually I meant EILD, not DEILD. I will reserve judgement though until a good REM-detecting device comes along.

Semantics aside, I got your jist even though I did the same in reply. What is it with acronyms and lucid dreaming!

What you need is a solution instead of the usual LED lights is an audible cue or a tactile cue like a vibration device worn on your wrist when REM is detected.

Thanks for the info about the LaBerge enquiry. It makes you think if it is going to happen, although I read somewhere that the ND2 was being used/seen at his retreat?

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Getting derailed a bit here, but:

Hmm, we all did try to answer the op question. Not just in this thread, but in other threads on this forum, etc,, etc, etc.

Thing is the RemDreamer is not classified as a medical device, so it doesn't have to pass that certification. If it has a CE (European) mark however:
Then it shows that the manufacturer has checked that these products meet EU safety, health or environmental requirements.
Is an indicator of a product’s compliance with EU legislation.
Allows the free movement of products within the European market. (Source Gov.UK)

However not all products need to be covered, as there are exemptions.

The truth of the matter is only the manufacturer can tell you, or if you take the device for independent evaluation to measure the output power from the diode/device.

See also: light attenuation by the eyelid.

Read also this patent example:

[0020]
Another method of heating the eyelids and meibomian glands uses near infrared (NIR) radiation. More specifically, two hard eye patches were attached to an eye mask according to the pupillary distance of the subject. The eye mask was held in place by an elastic headband. Each patch employed 19 light emitting diodes, emitting near infrared radiation from 850 nm to 1050 nm, with a peak at 940 nm. The device produced 10 mW/cm2 of energy operating on electrical power. Goto, E., et al., Treatment of Non-Inflamed Obstructive Meibomian Gland dysfunction by an Infrared Warm Compression Device. British Journal of Ophthalmology, Vol. 86 (2002), pp. 1403-1407.
This device is designed as a non-contact infrared heating mask using IR light emitting diodes. However, there are many potential problems with use of an IR heating mechanism. For example, the IR Heat can penetrate beyond the eyelid into the Cornia [sic] which is undesirable, and could ultimately cause cataracts or other damage. (Source).

Note how many emitters are used (19), the type of radiation (heat) and the output power density (10 mW/cm2).

hi. i contacted the manufacturer and got this reply

We use active ir. Infrared which we use doesn’t produce heat. There are three types of infrared and only third type-far infrared produces heat.
We use infrared very close to red light and it doesn’t produce heat.
Also power of IR LED is around 0,015 Watt so this level of power is too low to do damage. In comparison power of microwave ovens is around 2000W.
So please compare 0,015W to 2000W.
And also infrared in microwave ovens is far infrared, the one which produces heat.
So we still are sure that our device is 100% safe.

So please compare 0,015W to 2000W.

Giving completely misleading and pointless analogies does not build confidence in the source as being trustworthy or knowledgeable about science.

RD is supposed to sit all night long directly on top of your eyes.
However, I can't remember the last time I stuck my face into a working microwave oven, and I believe they're not designed for that particular purpose.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Giving completely misleading and pointless analogies does not build confidence in the source as being trustworthy or knowledgeable about science.

RD is supposed to sit all night long directly on top of your eyes.
However, I can't remember the last time I stuck my face into a working microwave oven, and I believe they're not designed for that particular purpose.

The Novadreamer detected REM in the same way, i dont think ive ever heard of any problems from anybody that wore one :-/

Ezzo

Originally Posted by ezzolucid

The Novadreamer detected REM in the same way, i dont think ive ever heard of any problems from anybody that wore one :-/

Ezzo

You missed my point: the microwave oven comparison is a faulty argument. I'm not claiming it's unsafe. I just don't know. I'll probably be trying the N2D2 when (if) it comes out, maybe just after a WBTB though and not all night.