Compassion talk

[Ginsan]

What a beautiful thing. It turns jealousy into happiness, and it can turn anger/irritation into wanting to help a person. You don't even have to meditate, just understanding the idea, which is very simple to understand, will accomplish this. Whenever you notice that you are jealous, realise that you actually want this person to be happy. You will enjoy this person's happiness more than you will enjoy his or her suffering, no matter how much you hate him/her. Voila, you are now free to enjoy his or her gift/quality that initially made you jealous. And anger. If someone hurts you, you feel angry towards them. You know that this quality of the person is not one that creates optimal well being even for him/herself. So you say "I wish this person would be free of this negative quality", or something like that. This can free your mind of needless negative feelings. And I find that I don't have to meditate on compassion, just noticing when anger or jealousy shows up and reminding myself of these things is enough. I learned these things from this talk Joseph Goldstein - Buddhism The essential points - He says other things beside this so I encourage you to watch it

[acatalephobic]

Such an interesting topic, I typed a long time on it only to start fresh because I was veering too far from the point I think... I just wonder Ginsan... What do you think makes compassion desirable to some but not to others? And also, Why is it that a person can feel compassionate in some cases but not in others? I keep thinking about the idea that two emotions exist only; Love & Hate. Break down every single emotion a person can feel, and its like they all come from one of these two states of mind. I would say that compassion is clearly a luvthang, but what is it's hateful opponent I wonder...selfishness? Belligerence maybay? Interesting too, how often I notice people speaking of anger as if it completely uncontrollable or involuntary. I personally am more inclined to say that you might not always be in control of your feelings, but surely a person is normally in charge of their actions right? If an angry person is not in control of their feelings NOR their actions, I can't help but wonder... What ARE they doing in life then, besides breathing, hmm? Drifting, blown about by life like a leaf on a pond I guess.. I don't get it, can't relate. To me compassion is a choice. Much like happiness, it takes will to achieve sometimes. And I guess there are many reasons why people could choose some other option, but I am so often disappointed by the lack of happiness an compassion I see in the world I live in, it really makes me wonder why that is. Surely people that do not show much compassion would feel slighted if it were not shown to them in their moment of need, right? Is this not obviously hyprocitical though? Similarly Everyone loves to be happy I imagine, and would prefer others not harsh their mellow...but how often do you see people doing just that with no remorse whatsoever? As if that person having a bad day means the whole WORLD deserves to have a bad day too, just be default. Is that not INSANE? I don't get it... BUT, another thing about compassion I like is that it doesn't have to always be some grand gesture to be appreciated. In fact the tiny simple things that people do for me that show compassion are the things I am moved by the most usually. Like when someone sees you struggling with a door and they hurry to help you...or like when I see someone looking sad I try to tell them jokes, to brighten them up. I figure everyone has their moments, so it's important to try to be there to give others a boost wherever you can. You'd want someone to for you, right? Even strangers deserve compassion too, just think how bad it feels when a stranger treats you insensitively, but how AWEsome it feels when they are just kind to you for no reason at all... Except of course for the fact that it just makes the world a happier place to be in. (And who in their right mind wouldn't be about that?) It doesn't take much effort, but it sure can have a big effect when the timing is right. Reminds me of a little decoration I bought two days ago: I put it by the door so I can be reminded of it every day as I leave and as I come home. :}

[Ginsan]

I'm a little sleepy and I'll read/think/write again when I sleep and wake up so if I'm not making much sense and saying very little with too much text now wait half a day and I might have something better This is basically a rant xD What do you think makes compassion desirable to some but not to others? I think it's mainly confusion about what's going to make him/her happy. Joseph Goldstein mentioned 2 or 3 basic emotions and their opposites in the video I posted or in this one Joseph Goldstein - "Mindfulness: What it is and is Not". But I think we should appreciate the difficulty of the situation. I mean, mindfulness and compassion are two very simple things. They don't even need explanation, the entire practice is explained by the words themselves (obviously there are nuances/traps, and further explanation/guidance is very helpful), yet people can practice these things 18 hours a day on silent retreat for decades and still want to deepen their practice. It's hard to convince people that something so simple can be so profound. When you are a kid, there is this world full of adults trying to prepare you for adult life. You go to school and before you know it you are studying your ass off so you don't have to be broke, hungry and miserable for the rest of your life. You barely get any sleep because there are so many distractions and things to do and this in itself makes you a zombie. Along the way you find some sexy people, you get your heart broken a few times, you break a few hearts, you make some friends and lose some. You start getting ideas about life. About how to deal with love, how to deal with friends, so you can enjoy them without getting your feelings hurt or without making a fool for yourself (a false concern really, WHO THE FUCK CARES). I think people simply don't know that life can be better. People simply don't know that you can "be happy BEFORE something happens", as Sam Harris puts it. To me, the only reason to be kind is because it gives me a good vibe. I think acting noble and saying/thinking you really do it for someone else or to make the world better is pretentious. The term "enlightened selfishness" describes it. I also don't like the "you would want them to do it for you" reason, because, what if they don't? Maybe this only applies to me, but I can't get myself to do nice things because it might pay off in the future, I can only do it if it makes me feel nice right at that moment. And people are just not reliable, you know? I treat people nicely because it makes myself feel better, and that is liberating. Because if I do it so he/she can return the favor, I will be disappointed when the favor is not returned and I may even get angry. I've always been like this as far as I can remember, I would want to get screwed over 100 times before treating somebody unkindly. I don't think I have the heart to be so compassionate, but I'm just saying that's what I would want to do. These last few months I noticed I get a great vibe when I go to a supermarket, greet the cashier with a smile and say "have a nice day" PS: I was describing the best case scenario. You can have a dysfunctional family, disease, people dying, which makes it even more difficult to be happy for no reason.

[acatalephobic]

My whole thing is this: To me, the only reason to be kind is because it gives me a good vibe. I think acting noble and saying/thinking you really do it for someone else or to make the world better is pretentious. The term "enlightened selfishness" describes it. I also don't like the "you would want them to do it for you" reason, because, what if they don't? Maybe this only applies to me, but I can't get myself to do nice things because it might pay off in the future, I can only do it if it makes me feel nice right at that moment. And people are just not reliable, you know? I treat people nicely because it makes myself feel better, and that is liberating. Because if I do it so he/she can return the favor, I will be disappointed when the favor is not returned and I may even get angry. I've always been like this as far as I can remember, I would want to get screwed over 100 times before treating somebody unkindly. I don't think I have the heart to be so compassionate, but I'm just saying that's what I would want to do. These last few months I noticed I get a great vibe when I go to a supermarket, greet the cashier with a smile and say "have a nice day" A gazillion fafillion times THIS. And if you enjoy these moments, chances are they do too! It is not selfish to feel happy and wish others the same! This is called WIN-WIN. I had a cashier the other day tell me sincerely "please come back again", after i told him I watch Jeopardy like some people watch sports , and he told me he prefer Russian language studies. /raise one eyebrow say Thankyoubyebye! x} Not to clutter up your thread with kitsch but I also have another sign in my home, but I've had it wayyyyyy longer than that new one in the photo. It feels totally appropriate, says: Because if you tell me this is false, i call you LIAR!

[Ginsan]

Clutter it with as much kitsch as you want The thread is unpopular anyway, apparantly "SMILE! It makes the whole world brighter " Yeah... It's a cute little sign but it doesn't do anything to me I would probably gloss over it as if it is some random object like a chair or table or something. It's true though.

[acatalephobic]

I guess what it does for me is remind me that.. Wow it can bring me down when the world seems so angry and insensitive... But even the tiniest gesture of compassion/kindness brings me back to life again! If nothing else, as YOU said, doing this makes us feel good. If it does for them to it is just like BONUSSSSS Clutter it with as much kitsch as you want Since you are so kind, the other one I edited out was: Because why NOT, that's all I'm wondering, honestly... Any other alternative just seems freakin lame to me.

[Ginsan]

I love that one xD It also reminded me of this thing I sometimes do. You should try it too. Start laughing out loud (for no apparent reason) and hysterically, for like 20 seconds and try to mean it. Sometimes something clicks and the silliness of it will actually make you laugh, once I did this for minutes and me and 3 friends were laughing together I learned it from a silly Japanese series I watch where someone started laughing in a cheeky way, I did it to my grandmother who was always sitting here (now she is back in Turkey) in the living room and I was just on the computer and then I would start laughing out loud for no reason, I did this about 5 times a day for a couple of weeks until she went home and it was great fun Here it is, within the first minute. Trick season 2 episode 6 part 2

[acatalephobic]

Oh man, I HAVE tried this! I tell my friend Lola to do it when she having bad day at work, and it worked for her just like it works for me. Laughter therapy man, good stuff! I found it by accident though. I was tellin a story and laughed the silliest laugh I could think of and BOOM immediately the laugh went from parody to genuine! I used the same trick later on, to see if it was a fluke, but again I immediately felt happier. Laughing triggers something in the brain, I always wondered about it really. Where it comes from, and what purpose it serves. All I know for certain is that it makes me feel HAPPY, so is GOOD! x} Like compassion in a way...something we are occasionally compelled to do, that makes everyone feel happier all the way around. Like woosah, koombaya, ohm, and all that it just has this uncanny effect on things. Seems to draw things back to harmony somehow, even if only temporarily...

[Ginsan]

I was reading a book by a psychologist named Daniel Kahneman a few weeks ago and he described experiments in which he made people hold a pencil in their mouth either vertically or horizontally. Holding it horizontally makes your face resemble a smile and holding it vertically makes it resemble a frown. Or they just made people frown their eyebrows. Then they showed people funny things and annoying things, all kinds of things and the frowning people were always less amused/more easily irritated and the smiling (horizontal hold) people were more easily amused/less irritated. It's a very interesting book btw, it is called "Thinking fast, thinking slow" and you might want to watch his lectures to get a good taste of his work. Here is a little video so you can find out if you are interested "Daniel Kahneman: Thinking Fast vs. Thinking Slow | Inc. Magazine" I did it once on my bicycle to school when I was really irritated and didn't want to get out of my bed and sit at school at all. So I remembered a video on Youtube (not by Kahneman) that said something about fake smiling actually making you happier and I just started laughing out loud, it went like this HAH!HAH!HAH!HAH! like a robot laugh or angry laugh, and then I laughed for real and I felt good Maybe it is because the brain works with correlations. It is like "funny and laughter goes together" so whenever you laugh, it says "hey, there must be something funny, let me produce the funniness chemicals", or something like that. It's like there is this whole web of interconnections that strengthen each other. When you feel good, you smile more, and laugh more. When you laugh, you feel good and smile. When you smile, you feel good and laugh. Here you can laugh with the wonderfully wise and happy Dalai Lama "Dalai Lama's guide to happiness" Btw, you don't need any religious bullshit to think about the ideas found in Buddhism, so don't be put off by the label Buddhism that goes with the Dalai Lama

[Ginsan]

I want to add something that should have been in the first post. The key to making the world a better place is to develop a strong sense of compassion. Now, daily practice in your own mind and in your actions is obviously important. But I doubt that this is possible without spending serious time meditating. Just think of the things you could do to make the world better but don't. Just think of how many people you could be kinder to, or give a hug, but don't because it would be awkward or because you are too irritated. I could hug my parents, brother, family members friends, every time I saw them and tell them I love them but I don't. It feels awkward. That's why I think that developing a strong sense of compassion (through meditation) is the only way. Then you will feel a stronger inclination to make the world better and the stronger this skill becomes, the less things (like useless feelings) will get in your way.

[acatalephobic]

Remember any time (or many times) someone has shown you compassion in your own life. Think back and try to remember exactly what it feels like... For me it feels like sunshine... ...on a cloudy day...

[Ginsan]

But it's difficult. Without meditating my mind is out of control. I get overwhelmed by anger and boredom very often and very easily. Just thinking about when someone showed kindness is not enough for me.

[ThreeCat]

Great topic. I do, however, think that some form of mind training is necessary to awaken our compassion on a regular basis--whether that be breath meditation, tong len, lojong, or some other practice to prepare the mind to respond compassionately to phenomena we perceive as difficult or trying. For instance, without preparing myself through meditation, it might be difficult to respond with compassion if someone insults me (or my ideas, or anything I perceive as being mine or having an impact on me), as opposed to reacting in anger. To me compassion is a choice. It's always a choice! But sometimes a hard one to make. Our habitual tendencies of fear and defense make compassion difficult. Compassion requires us to be completely open to the other person--to lower our defenses and consider their happiness to be more important than our own. If we are holding back ("I'll be compassionate with this person, but if they insult me one more time...."), then that form of compassion is extremely limited. It is difficult to train the mind to not defend itself, and to perceive others as more important.

[Ginsan]

I don't think compassion requires you to put someone else before yourself. Enjoying other people's company is a much better way to enjoy your own life than not enjoying other people's company. I feel like I may be nitpicking here, and I agree with the rest of your post, but I think it's worth pointing this little thing out, that compassion and kindness aren't noble at all, it's simply a more effective way to enjoy your life. This also makes it much easier to adopt. Nobility is setting the bar too high I think.

[ThreeCat]

I have to disagree with your equating compassion with "enjoying other people's company." If the only goal for your "compassion" is to enjoy people, then once those people are no longer enjoyable, you will abandon them to seek better company. That would be the opposite of compassion. A compassionate response involves putting ourself to the side in order to bring happiness to others. Otherwise our "compassion " is self-serving and egotistical. And it will lead to selfish responses (which aren't compassionate, and which will actually bring us unhappiness). You are right that compassion has many positive side effects for the person being compassionate (which is why in Buddhism we refer to it as the "twofold benefit"), but the desire must be an earnest desire to help beings, and not to just seek the feel-good aspects of compassion. As I said before, this kind of compassion would be very limited, and in some ways even absurd. I think Joseph Goldstein would agree with me. What am I missing, Ginsan? I'm also not sure where "noble" keeps coming in. That word was not in my original post. I think this is just how compassion works. Love for other beings. Willingness to put beings before ourselves.

[sisyphus]

I think of compassion in terms of non-duality. To feel compassion is to recognize that another person (or any being) also feels. They appreciate the same things that you appreciate, like kindness. And they suffer the same things that you suffer, like fear. So starting from a dualistic interpretation, one might initially describe it as "seeing yourself in another person." But how can "the Self" be in another? The essence of "the Self" is "not other." This can be a helpful paradox. It forces one to reconsider the sense of self. I think starting from this premise avoids the trap of being conflicted as to whether compassion is self-serving or not. Admittedly though, this is a rather abstract approach. It suits me because I think that way. I did enjoy reading everyone else thoughts on the topic.

[ThreeCat]

I think of compassion in terms of non-duality. I think that is the goal of ultimate compassion. I think most of us are still practicing relative compassion, or even what Chogyam Trungpa would call "idiot compassion." Trungpa puts non-dual compassion in terms of space. Once we realize that no external phenomena actually make any demands upon us, we have a sense of space. We can now afford to give everything, because people are not a drain on our energy. There is also no self to defend, and no self to get hurt.

[Ginsan]

I think I agree with you. And you gave me a new insight, but I have to grapple with this and I don't know how to properly put it into words, but I'll try. Thinking in terms of "putting others before yourself" or "helping others so you can get a good vibe" is delusional. Basically there is no self to put here or there. This makes sense if you consider non-duality as your ultimate goal. EDIT: ultimate goal or the truth. Maybe truth is a better word to put there