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    Thread: Should humanity have an end goal?

    1. #1
      I am become fish pear Abra's Avatar
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      Should humanity have an end goal?

      And if so, what should it be? What'll we do if we reach it? Create a dream world, dreamviews.

      If not, why not? Why is blind chaos (not really chaos, but bending to the will of capitalism and nationalism, which can produce disastrous side effects... such as meat industry lobbyists preventing anti-abuse legislation, or a bunch of rich white lards dying of the fat while others starve. The main point, is that we haven't chosen a specific end point, and while for now we seem to be trying to improve the quality of human life, what then?) better?

      God I butchered that last sentence with parentheses. I need to stop posting.

      More food:

      Once we get our grand unified theory (if such a thing is possible. Formal math is incomplete, why not science?), what should we do with it? Should we share our knowledge and aid with struggling alien races? Let them work it out on their own? How large should our population be? What's the coolest technology that we could invent? How should we treat the environment and other species on earth? Is terraforming ethical on planets that probably would've developed a life history of their own? How should humans evolve? To what extent should we engineer ourselves?

      Anyone read Asimov's Foundation series?
      Last edited by Abra; 05-22-2012 at 05:09 PM.
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      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

    2. #2
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      The only possible end goal for humanity could be an end of humanity.

      I see it more like the Hindi Yugas, which are like epochs for humanity. There is a sleeping phase and an awakening phase. After humanity awakens to the golden age they fall back asleep due to no longer having the same motivation to awaken as they did before the golden age. They essentially become passive and society drifts back into disunity.

      However if I were to envision a golden age, I would say its one where humanity retains the technology, wisdom and understanding that we have gained with civilization, but returns to a life-style that desires no more than it needs and focuses on living in harmony with all things.
      Last edited by Omnis Dei; 05-22-2012 at 07:19 AM.
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      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      The only possible end goal for humanity could be an end of humanity.
      In what sense? Transcendence? Or we choose to destroy ourselves?
      Last edited by Abra; 05-22-2012 at 07:52 AM. Reason: neverending cascade of edits
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

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      Either, my point is the concept of an end goal means all goals would end after it's achieved. It sort of conflicts with infinity.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      I am become fish pear Abra's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      Either, my point is the concept of an end goal means all goals would end after it's achieved. It sort of conflicts with infinity.
      But science tells me we live in a finite universe. We could stage the end goal to be completed at the end of the universe. Maybe build a froody restaurant there.
      Last edited by Abra; 05-22-2012 at 11:28 AM. Reason: lingo
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      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

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      I almost followed your red herring with a huge post about the nature of the universe but I deleted it because I realized it was one massive tangent.

      When the human race ends, our goals will end. Until the human race ends, our goals will not end. We will continue pursuing them. However, I suppose another possible answer to your question is that the end goal is to cease having goals. Either way.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      I am become fish pear Abra's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      I almost followed your red herring with a huge post about the nature of the universe but I deleted it because I realized it was one massive tangent.
      Didn't realize it was a red herring, bro. Misunderstood you. Now I got it.

      When the human race ends, our goals will end. Until the human race ends, our goals will not end. We will continue pursuing them. However, I suppose another possible answer to your question is that the end goal is to cease having goals. Either way.
      Sure. I'm interested in what my fellow DVers determine is a good goal. The worthiest goal.
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

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      Member Photolysis's Avatar
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      A complete understanding of all physical laws and phenomena would seem to be a worthy goal.

      Perhaps creating new universes/lifeforms?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Photolysis View Post
      A complete understanding of all physical laws and phenomena would seem to be a worthy goal.

      Perhaps creating new universes/lifeforms?
      Excellent. What would we put in them?
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

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      Well, I think there are a lot of things we should be striving for. Working towards multiple objectives, with short term goals and long terms goals in mind. But if I were to sum it all up into one overarching idea, it would basically be what Photolysis has said. Learn as much about our existence as possible. Study everything we can. Neuroscience, quantum physics, astrophysics, computer technology, etc. Everything from the very small to the very large. Discover as much as we can about it all and expand our knowledge to its very limit (if there is indeed a limit to how much we can know).

      This idea probably fits more into the definition of a guideline for humanity, rather than an end goal. But perhaps that's the best way of looking at it. If we were to set ourselves an end goal, what would we do when we finally reached it? Would we set ourselves new goals? Would we feel that we'd achieved everything we set out to do and simply revert back to a passive attitude? Maybe it's better to follow the evolutionary example, where we just slowly improve upon what we already have, constantly finding more efficient ways of doing things, but with no specific end goal to reach. Anyway, that's my little ramble over with for now.

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      Hm. Learning is cool. But pure learning is just mental masturbation (and I do love me some masturbation). From there, what would we do with it?

      I mean, society just continuing to get cleaner, more civil, and more awesome would be neat. But what happens in, say, a million years? Surely society would resemble nothing like today. What could it be? What would the superhumans be like?


      Altered OP a bit, added more topic questions.
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

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      Quote Originally Posted by Abra View Post
      But science tells me we live in a finite universe.
      Science gives us numerous way to interpret the size of the universe, or whether it's open or closed. Science's mapping of the universe does not indicate that the universe is closed, but because the universe came into being at some point in the past, we can only see a certain distance, and consequentially a certain time into the past.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Phion View Post
      Science gives us numerous way to interpret the size of the universe, or whether it's open or closed. Science's mapping of the universe does not indicate that the universe is closed, but because the universe came into being at some point in the past, we can only see a certain distance, and consequentially a certain time into the past.
      I'm talking about when the stars all burn out. Heat death. Doesn't seem to be much of a way around it, even if the universe expands infinitely. Unless it's like a grand accordion, expanding and contracting but playing different harmonies (initial conditions) each time. (But, if Big Bang Theory is true, how would anything from one universe survive the rebirth?)
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

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      Quote Originally Posted by Abra View Post
      I'm talking about when the stars all burn out. Heat death. Doesn't seem to be much of a way around it, even if the universe expands infinitely. Unless it's like a grand accordion, expanding and contracting but playing different harmonies (initial conditions) each time. (But, if Big Bang Theory is true, how would anything from one universe survive the rebirth?)
      Rather, it would be a "cold death".

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      Quote Originally Posted by Abra View Post
      Hm. Learning is cool. But pure learning is just mental masturbation (and I do love me some masturbation). From there, what would we do with it?
      Well, a case could be made advocating learning for learning's sake. If you were to ask people on the very frontiers of science how they felt about the work they were doing, I suspect many of them would tell you that they feel a great sense of fulfillment. Venturing into the unknown, finding new and exciting things that change the way you see the world. You can see the appeal. The process of discovery can be, in and of itself, exhilarating.

      But there are many practical benefits that would also come about as a kind of by-product. The hunt for knowledge encourages great innovations in technology and alters the way we see and do things in our society. Some of these benefits are obvious, like how studying bacteria and viruses helps us develop better medical treatments, or how monitoring seismic activity helps us set up early warning systems for earthquakes and tsunamis. There are many potential advantages to be had from learning this stuff.

      Quote Originally Posted by Abra View Post
      I mean, society just continuing to get cleaner, more civil, and more awesome would be neat. But what happens in, say, a million years? Surely society would resemble nothing like today. What could it be? What would the superhumans be like?
      Assuming humanity did survive that long, I couldn't even begin to comprehend what things would be like. If we continue to advance at the pace we're going now, I struggle to picture things a hundred years from now, let alone a million. I can only give a vague, unspecific vision of what it might look like. I obviously don't see us staying confined to this little planet well into the future. I suspect we would expand out into the wider universe, exploring new places, inhabiting new worlds, perhaps even discovering alien life. Hopefully we would find intelligent life, like us, that we could talk to, learn from, and work with to build on what we've discovered. We could push to learn more about the laws of physics and maybe think of ways to break them, or find loopholes that could work in our favour. Like travelling from one place to another faster than the speed of light, through the use of wormholes or something similar.

      We could also do something similar to what Photolysis said, like create simulated worlds. Virtual realities, where we could create, experiment and play around. We could maybe even build a virtual paradise, if it's possible. An artificial heaven, where there's no pain or suffering and all of our wants and needs are taken care of. We could work on things like bioengineering to create new life forms that didn't exist before, or bring back life forms that once existed, but went extinct. All of these things, I could see us doing a few centuries from now. A million years from now, everything might be so alien and unrecognisable that I couldn't even begin to understand it. There are so many possibilities, and I can only guess at how things will progress as times goes by.
      Last edited by HeavySleeper; 05-22-2012 at 06:17 PM.
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      On simulated worlds in conjunction with creating heaven on earth--I recommend Asimov's The End of Eternity. Also a good love story.
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Abra View Post
      Sure. I'm interested in what my fellow DVers determine is a good goal. The worthiest goal.
      I edited my first post a while ago to explain what I thought this would be. But I love arguing semantics.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      I edited my first post a while ago to explain what I thought this would be. But I love arguing semantics.
      I know. I was just rerailing the thread. /shrugs
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

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      The "end goal" for humanity is to achieve ultimate survival. Ultimate survival defined as the longest possible age we can live too, and the conditions that occupy the state at any given moment, like how happy we feel.

      Thats it. But I wouldn't completely consider that the end goal. There are still other goals after achieving that state including: the ultimate sustainability of the state of ultimate survival (the trend towards minimal effort and maximum return). I think this goal will get very close but never reached, like the concept of infinity. Even if we live 1,000,000 years old guess what happens next: could the conditions be better? Could I live 5 more years longer?

      This is why we naturally deviate to the idea of Heaven. It satisfies the urge of ultimate survival, and even proposes a solution to the goal. Therefore, it easy to understand why people mindlessly run around doing very unproductive things like watching TV or playing video games because in the back of their head they have for all intents and purposes found (to what they believe) is the best solution to the overarching goal of humanity and are satisfied of the urge to continue exploring the paradigm. The rest, living in the moment, serves only the purpose of experiencing happiness from satisfying the remaining urges and needs imposed by their DNA.

      Quite fucking genius but lazy solution. It would of allowed us 20,000 years ago when life sucked to find purpose in living.

      Its quite possible that our natural contentedness and satisfaction with the idea of heaven is a inherited characteristic.

      But we are evolving. God is dead. Perhaps it is time to evolve and start pursuing a more reasonable and sensible paradigm.

      But until we can really live forever (which will happen for all intents and purposes I am sure) we will satisfy the urge of ultimate survival with some makeshift solution.

      That way no matter where we are in timeline of humanity, the urge will therefore not be as persisting as it could be (if we did not have a makeshift solution for our end goal) and we can go attending to the secondary survival urges and needs like satisfying hunger and thirst, sexual drives, competition to be superior, and even sleep.



      Only problem for me though is that I have difficulty accepting this makeshift solution, and often struggle with the idea of death. I figure at least if I am going to die, maybe there is some significant enough course of action I will take that can justify death.


      I have not been met with any success. It seems that the only purpose for survival is in fact survival itself. So I am forced to accept that I probably will die in my lifetime. But it has also spurred me on to the inquiry of the concept of "I" and even consciousness itself, as it has with many prominent religions and fields of study. Perhaps a solution to death could be my consciousness is transferable, there is heaven, you name the X makeshift solution. But nonetheless, we need something.




      And to answer the OP, yes we must have an end goal. Only by having a end goal is even the thought of survival possible. Our true end goal is our prime desired state which is the highest form of happiness we can achieve which of course mandates living. If we had no desires or urges and were in the our prime state indefinitely, we would simple uninterested in doing anything at all. All action would just be unnecessary. That is why I laugh at the idea of free will, as it is defined as essentially action external from conflicting forces. If absolute free will existed, everything you did would be arbitrary and pointless.
      At this given moment you are being urged, you might be hungry, your sexual drives might be acting up, you may want to play a game of soccer and compete with other people, you could be really sleepy and want to go to bed, it all depends on your DNA.
      Last edited by Dreams4free; 05-22-2012 at 11:54 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dreams4free View Post
      God is dead.
      So is Nietzche, my friend!

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      It might be arrogant to say so but I think humans should strive to survive forever, even past the end of this universe. One long term goal would thus be to find a way to survive the end of the universe, either by making our own, or traveling to another.
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      I very much approve of this thread. Awesome posts, you guys, a really great read!

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      I think the end goal is basically to understand all the non-trivial experiences. This ties in with the learning, but is also more subjective in nature. For instance, our eyes only have a limited spectral range. We already understand the ideas of the spectrum beyond this visible range; but we do not understand the experience of this spectrum as the Hubble Space Telescope might, or as a squid might, or as a bat might. These are the goals we are trying for every day in getting to know people; through our limited language mediums we understand a little better.

      I guess if you understood the nature of everything in this way, you might just call it enlightenment. But enlightenment as a concept has always seemed like the big golden statue, hard to break up, where things in themselves are disregarded as they are illusion or whatever. I say keep the illusions and the reality too; place every little piece into a jigsaw and make the final kaleidoscopic picture.
      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur
      How are we not a forklift? All that contraction and elongation to raise and lower objects...

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      Our goal: United Federation of Planets

      I want my descendants to serve in Starfleet.
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      I want my descendents to serve as Jedi.
      Phion likes this.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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