Thread: Kakusei (disillusion; come to one's senses; wake up)

I've always wanted to try meditating, but I've never really been told "how" to. I hope this isn't deviating from the intended purpose of the thread, but could you give me some instructions on how to go about meditating, and what to expect?

I've tried a few times before to clear my mind of all thoughts. Every time, I manage to silence my internal dialogue (which seems pretty easy), but I still have "flashes of understanding" which have no words attached. For example, I will "understand" that I've managed to rid myself of thoughts for a pretty long time, but then I'll "understand" that this thought is paradoxical, while still "understanding" that I haven't "said" anything in my head yet. It's very confusing

As for the usefulness of meditation, we know that the brain is constantly rewiring itself to accommodate new information, and even the adult human brain has demonstrated a huge amount of latent plasticity. I see no obvious reason, then, to discount such practices as meditation - it's entirely possible that through these activities the brain's structure could be changed in ways which are beneficial to the individual.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

I've always wanted to try meditating, but I've never really been told "how" to. I hope this isn't deviating from the intended purpose of the thread, but could you give me some instructions on how to go about meditating, and what to expect?

Meditation isn't about being told what to do and following what other people say. You're supposed to follow what your soul says.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

As for the usefulness of meditation, we know that the brain is constantly rewiring itself to accommodate new information, and even the adult human brain has demonstrated a huge amount of latent plasticity. I see no obvious reason, then, to discount such practices as meditation - it's entirely possible that through these activities the brain's structure could be changed in ways which are beneficial to the individual.

Being a Buddhist, I can safely say that you are thinking into this way too much. Meditation should be from the heart, not the mind.

Originally Posted by M-Cat

Meditation isn't about being told what to do and following what other people say. You're supposed to follow what your soul says.

That's a slight problem for someone who does not believe in souls

Originally Posted by M-Cat

Being a Buddhist, I can safely say that you are thinking into this way too much. Meditation should be from the heart, not the mind.

My heart is for pumping, not processing. I just want some practical information as to how meditation is usually practiced. Being a Wiccan, I can safely say that you are being unnecessarily vague.

One key element to meditation, I find, is to pay mind to your entirety (your bodily sensations, your past, your stresses, your future, the world around you), and then choose what to disregard when clearing the mind. While disregarding these thoughts, you must always have a reason ("I am clearing my mind on the past because it does not have to affect my future. I am clearing my mind of the future because I am focusing on present conscious." ... "I am clearing my mind of words, because their imperfect nature will jeopordize the purity of this trance.").

I meditate primarily for relaxation and autosuggestion. Sometimes I find myself focusing on questions as I enter (though I enjoy asking questions in dreams more than while meditating).

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080127/...antric_ice_man

First and foremost gnome, you must unlearn what you have learned and disbelieve what you believe. Those preconceived doctrines that we are spoonfed to believe through the education system of the west only hinder free thought and open-mindedness and get you to follow someone else's guidelines to life. You invariably create hurdles of preconception, walls of doubt, and bubbles of belief in things that disallow you to open yourself up to all the possibilities out there. Instead of belief in science as this set of stone tablets to live life by, you should use them like plastic sporks to get the job done but always know that like any tool they will degrade and become useless and outdated with time. Why would anyone ever believe in science as infallible when it's been anything but as we go forward? We continually amend and tack on ideas to ever-imperfect ones as we go. And, as we reach the ass-end of history many scientific journals start to read more like science fiction, wouldn't you agree? Therefore, why rule out the impossible before it's ever proven so?

Do you notice that a lot of times you immediately say you don't believe something in these threads? I think once you route out the source of that disbelief you will reach your destination much quicker. While I don't necessarily believe a lot that is said, I don't entirely write it off as false, either. Staying dead-center between belief and disbelief is always the best place to be...

You'll never get off-keel.

Hey, gnome. This link was in BillyBob's tutorial about Dream Yoga. I explains meditation. As BillyBob said, "Ignore the New Age pics. Just take meditation for what it is." I found the rest of the site to be interesting as well.
http://www.meditationcenter.com/connect/mind.html

You should probably read this too.
http://www.meditationcenter.com/info/8points.html

Gnome, I'll second Kushna's link. You don't need to actively clear your mind, just don't get involved in thoughts that arise. You'll come to recognize your common obstacles, such as your "flash of understanding," in which case you may want to 'name the demons,' silently acknowledging them with a simple label like judging or planning or simply thoughts.

Sogyal Rinpoche recommends, "Don't concentrate too much on the breath; give it about 25% of your attention, with the other 75% quietly and spaciously relaxed."

My only other recommendation, from my first teacher: if you want to build a daily practice, start small with about 5 minutes, then add 5 minutes each day until you are comfortable sitting for an hour.

Why would anyone ever believe in science as infallible when it's been anything but as we go forward?

That the point of science, you can disprove it. There a famous quote what does not kill you makes you stronger. That the point of science it gets stronger.

Unlike the Bhudhism that is based on faith.

If you do find it unimportant, why and under what evidence do you find it so?

Your saying it is important, you should provide the evidence. The person making the claim has to provide the evidence.

Imagine yourself as a ship with your mind being the compass and sail, and the body being the boat. Wouldn't you want your compass, sail, and mast to be as strong as it could possibly be? If not, how could you ever sail in the direction of your dreams, let alone even know what direction or dreams exist out there to aspire to?

No imagine your brain as a starving person. You can feed it faith, however the brain will get weak. However, if you feed it science then it will grow strong.

Don't you want a strong brain. With little intellectural power how can you think? or use logic?

Staying dead-center between belief and disbelief is always the best place to be...

Then you wouldn't be a bhudhist then.

And, as we reach the ass-end of history many scientific journals start to read more like science fiction, wouldn't you agree?

No, unless your dumb then anything would seem like a act of god or supernatural.

Therefore, why rule out the impossible before it's ever proven so?

Science works on evidence. Get the evidence and I will look at it. However, when you except things on blind faith there is no need for evidence, kind of bhudhism.

Thanks for the advice, guys! After looking over the materials provided, I think I've been meditating "accidentally" quite often during times of monotony (like the half-hour ride home from school). I'm just going to try to extend this ability to louder, more disruptive environments.

I found myself getting irritated at some of my partners in a group activity at school yesterday, and right as I was about to snap at them I remembered meditation. I let go of my thoughts and stresses, tried to take in the whole environment to put things into perspective, and when all was said and done I found that the whole activity didn't really matter anyways. Unpleasantness avoided This is proof of concept for me, and hopefully it will work on larger problems or at least bring general calm if I do it for longer and in more meditation-friendly areas.

I will not 'let go of' my science or my skepticism, because I think both are necessary for a healthy state of mind for someone like me. However, it's apparent that I can still benefit from such personal control techniques. I don't really want to argue about that more in here, because I don't want to muck up the thread.

Thanks again for the advice, though.

*edit* reading that over, it might come across as if I've missed the point of meditation (the point being that there is no real point or goal). I do believe that I've grasped this concept, I just thought it was neat that the skills involved were able to help me remain calm in an everyday situation. Just to clear that up =P

I will not 'let go of' my science or my skepticism, because I think both are necessary for a healthy state of mind for someone like me. However, it's apparent that I can still benefit from such personal control techniques. I don't really want to argue about that more in here, so I don't muck up the thread.

All you did was concentrate. This shows what? that relaxing can make you not angry.

and right as I was about to snap at them I remembered meditation

Does this mean you are a whimp now?
Techniquely you should have critized them. For the benefit of humankind. Think "What would Wittgenstein do?"

Originally Posted by wendylove

All you did was concentrate. This shows what? that relaxing can make you not angry.


Does this mean you are a whimp now?
Techniquely you should have critized them. For the benefit of humankind. Think "What would Wittgenstein do?"

No, I did the opposite of concentrate. I let go of my current emotions and thoughts, and reassessed the situation after disengaging myself.

"Techniquely", the whole thing didn't matter and everyone's better off if no unnecessary harsh words are said.

Please, man, I'm glad you're on "our side", but spell check. People will take you more seriously.

"Techniquely", the whole thing didn't matter and everyone's better off if no unnecessary harsh words are said.

What would Wittgenstein do?

No, I did the opposite of concentrate. I let go of my current emotions and thoughts, and reassessed the situation after disengaging myself.

No you didn't. Concentration is define by controllying your thoughts in a particular direction you would like to go. You concentrated because you forced yourself to reasses and disengage yourself.

Dude.

Stop trashing perfectly good threads with your constant negative off-topic bile.

Originally Posted by wendylove

No you didn't. Concentration is define by controllying your thoughts in a particular direction you would like to go. You concentrated because you forced yourself to reasses and disengage yourself.

Meditation is pretty well documented to affect real change in the brain and to operate progressively (i.e. you get better at it and/or the results change over time). It's no more supernatural than lucid dreaming, and the two are very complimentary in my experience (frequency of meditation is strongly correlated to frequency of LDs for me). Your kneejerk reaction to something you apparently consider mystical or far-fetched is far from rational.

Meditation is pretty well documented to affect real change in the brain and to operate progressively (i.e. you get better at it and/or the results change over time).

There has been some studies saying it has postive effects. However, there is no sciencitific consenses or a huge body of evidence to support meditation. Even meditation has mixed reactions from sciencitist.

It's no more supernatural than lucid dreaming, and the two are very complimentary in my experience (frequency of meditation is strongly correlated to frequency of LDs for me).

Charka and enlightenment are not supported by scientific evidence.

Your kneejerk reaction to something you apparently consider mystical or far-fetched is far from rational.

Again, nearly everything bhudhism proposes is supernatural.

Originally Posted by wendylove

There has been some studies saying it has postive effects. However, there is no sciencitific consenses or a huge body of evidence to support meditation. Even meditation has mixed reactions from sciencitist.

Charka and enlightenment are not supported by scientific evidence.

Again, nearly everything bhudhism proposes is supernatural.

have you ever considered not all people here are strict scientists? take your negativity elsewhere. Negativity is the cult of the weak.

Originally Posted by wendylove

There has been some studies saying it has postive effects. However, there is no sciencitific consenses or a huge body of evidence to support meditation. Even meditation has mixed reactions from sciencitist.

Charka and enlightenment are not supported by scientific evidence.

Again, nearly everything bhudhism proposes is supernatural.

If you're such a scientific adept, do some more studies and prove what you're saying, or at least go find studies supporting you. "I don't like what I can't understand" is not an argument.

Meditation 'good for brain'

Evidence that the Transcendental Meditation program prevents or decreases diseases of the nervous system and is specifically beneficial for epilepsy

Making sense of meditation

Physiological Effects

MEDITATION MAY BOOST BRAIN SIZE AND INCREASE MENTAL PERFORMANCE

These are just some google hits I pulled up in a matter of minutes. I can keep going but I don't think I need to.

Wendy, please take a minute to consider the know-it-all tone in all of your posts, not just this thread, and think about whether you are actually contributing to a thread or simply spreading unfounded nonsense as a means to release some pent up stress and negativity. It's quite obvious to any outside observer which it is you are doing, but I hope at the very least you are aware of how you come across. Because, I can't understand anyone purposefully continuing to be a nay-saying dick for no reason what-so-ever.

If you're such a scientific adept, do some more studies and prove what you're saying, or at least go find studies supporting you. "I don't like what I can't understand" is not an argument.

I didn't say I don't understand. Anyway, I can't prove the negative. Ironically, Solskye did my job.
http://www.medicalobserver.com.au/di...templateID=108

Within scientific literature, meditation is a poorly defined and heterogenous collection of methods aimed at achieving states of relaxation and better well-being by using structured exercises to focus attention and modify thinking activity.

Of more than 3200 articles on meditation in peer-reviewed literature, less than 100 (about 3&#37 were randomised controlled trials (RCTs).

People are understood to respond similarly to almost any behaviour therapy, even sham therapies, simply because the therapies involve non-specific effects such as regular contact with a therapist, the simple effects of rest and relaxation, and the natural tendency to get better, not to mention pressure from researchers to report improvements. All of these factors contribute to the placebo effect.

Read the rest

Transcendental meditation http://skepdic.com/tm.html again more of a religion with silly claims then anything else.

The serotonin increases that may occur through meditation have been associated with only beneficial effects.

Meditation may increase serotonin. This is scientifically weak.

I would comment on the other articles in more depth, however I haven't got the time. I would just like to add that the Institute of Noetic sciences is not really a sciencitific institution, read there main page. Anything, may do anything. Now if something says it may do something then there is no sciencitific evidence that it is reliable.

A British expert says the results - published in the journal Psychosomatic Medicine - are interesting but need further scrutiny.

Pretty weak evidence.

Wendy, please take a minute to consider the know-it-all tone in all of your posts, not just this thread, and think about whether you are actually contributing to a thread or simply spreading unfounded nonsense as a means to release some pent up stress and negativity. It's quite obvious to any outside observer which it is you are doing, but I hope at the very least you are aware of how you come across. Because, I can't understand anyone purposefully continuing to be a nay-saying dick for no reason what-so-ever.

Nice ad hom.

As I said, those were just a few articles I pulled up in a matter of minutes. It's pretty obvious meditation can do wonders. You still haven't proven anything to anyone with your baseless unfounded skepticism.

Also regarding the last part, it wasn't meant to be taken as an ad hominem argument, it was meant to be taken as advice.

...I think it's more than clear to anyone with even an inkling of common sense. Something you clearly lack.

haven't proven anything to anyone with your baseless unfounded skepticism.

You can't prove the negative. Your saying meditation does something, you should provide the evidence.

...I think it's more than clear to anyone with even an inkling of common sense. Something you clearly lack.

Common sense is rubbish. If you look up the past it was common sense that god created us, that we are in the middle of the universe and that witches, fairies and demons are real.

Sorry, but using normative social pressure to presuade someone is weak. Look up Asch's line expriment.

You posted a pic of the classic "See no Evil, Hear no Evil, Speak no Evil" This can be interpretted as a way of positive thinking, but to me it more comes across as ignorance.
Closing the eyes to the pain and misfortune in the world: Exactly that whihc The young Buddha Guatama wished to see when his father tried to save him the evils of life keeping him in the safe walls of his palace.

Just a side note in this tooic. Great Topic. Is that picture of that burning monk a monk who survived that fire?

BTW I've always seen a connection/similairity between Buddhism and Southg American/Meso-American Shamanism. Namely the Aspect of freeing ones mind of the endless waves people's minds cruise on and their hurding behaviour:Feelings are contagious, panic and fear, hatred and Joy are contageous. Collective joy is followed by collective fear, sorrow, hatred, etc.. And once again followed by the same and the same. Both Buddhists and South American Shamans seek to rise above this human habit to be influenced by the outside world: The Other people. They completely disconnect.

I have often found out, while reading buddhist or south america shamanic-indian manifests stating these insights of "Disconnecting from the deceptive reality of outside world" to not get carried along in these (karmic)streams of feelings that cloud your consciousness and it's judgement , that I have seen, understood and overcome many of these obstacles they mention already in my life without having read those insights before.

The monk in the picture died in protest for religious equality in Vietnam.
Here is a wiki link. Apparently his heart survived.