Thread: So, I think Christians are stupid.

Do you honestly believe your reasoning is any more calculated than that of those superstitious imbeciles you seem to fascinate yourself with xei?

Wait a minute xei, here I am accusing you of being this closet holy man masquerading under the guise of intelligence; a godless heathen if you will, without the slightest bit of evidence. I'm truly sorry for that assumption on my part. So, what exactly do you believe and why?

Originally Posted by Xei

Narrow minded? This is the guy who asked for an explanation and is still listening. That's narrow minded?

It strikes me now... I've never heard a Christian ask, 'so, why don't you believe in God'? Never in my life have I heard a Christian being openly inquisitive about what we think and why we think it.

Actually, I have asked many athiests why they do not believe in God, and have never had a satisfactory answer. It's usually based on emotion.

It seems from his tone that his intention was not to hear the other side of the story, but to mock and try to "expose" Christians as being idiots. You find this type of post everywhere there is a forum. He says himself "you might convert me from thinking Christians are stupid", not "you might change my mind here". Nobody who says "you're stupid for what you believe" over and over really wants to be enlightened.

Still, I won't judge him. I guess being patronized and called stupid just annoyed me a little. Probably he really does want to know some answers here, because this is an important issue.

Anyway, a brief testimony:

You cannot prove Christianity by logical reasoning. It is based on faith. It requires one to aknlowedge that there is something wrong with the world around them, and then that this same sickness (a.k.a. "sin") is preying on them, too. It is beyond any of our control, or else evolution or laws would have stopped it by now. How to be saved from this? You have to form your own conclusion. When someone is "saved" they are just shown an option for salvation, and something pushes them towards it. That's why missions work is so successful. It isn't based on "brainwashing", but on spreading Good News. You can't force someone to be a Christian.

I am a relatively inexperienced Christian. I was raised as one, but did not take it that seriously until recently. Actually, not until I went into the world as an adult. Also, I became aware of some issues in my own life that were beyond my control. Knowing the Creator of the universe makes me realize I am not alone no matter what happens. And everyone faces trials in life.

I know of some people who were real tough characters before being saved. Stereotypical hard-core gangster types. Then they found Jesus, and had their lives completely transformed in a way nothing earthly could do. And not through indoctrination, either. I mean, it was really brief episodes that radically changed them.

To dismiss something merely because it's only source of evidence is in a written account (which by the way it's not) would be to dismiss most of history. And remember, Christians at one point were a tiny handful of people marked for extermination by the most powerful empire in the world. You have to admit there is something in the Bible worth looking at, or it would never have survived all these years. But as I say, you kind of have to see for yourself.

A little disjointed, I know...

One last thought: many people think lucid dreaming is impossible, and we're all just imagining it. You can't show someone what it's like or prove logically that it's real (though it's been tried), but you can often show them how to do it. They have to agree to try, of course.

What is your thought on other religions, especially non-Abrahamic ones?

Originally Posted by cedward1

Actually, I have asked many athiests why they do not believe in God, and have never had a satisfactory answer. It's usually based on emotion.

What sort of answers have you gotten?

Anyway, a brief testimony:

You cannot prove Christianity by logical reasoning. It is based on faith. It requires one to aknlowedge that there is something wrong with the world around them, and then that this same sickness (a.k.a. "sin") is preying on them, too. It is beyond any of our control, or else evolution or laws would have stopped it by now. How to be saved from this? You have to form your own conclusion. When someone is "saved" they are just shown an option for salvation, and something pushes them towards it. That's why missions work is so successful. It isn't based on "brainwashing", but on spreading Good News. You can't force someone to be a Christian.

I'm not sure any of this makes sense. For one, you discredit your later statements when you first state that we cannot prove Christianity by logical reasoning because its based on faith (a belief in something despite a lack of evidence). Why must all of the bad things in the world be out of our control? It is fallacious to state that if we do have control, evolution or laws would have stopped such bad things from happening. For one, evolution has no goals and thus does not necessarily stop bad things. Secondly, laws are imperfect. People can get around them.

And religious instruction can be considered brainwashing when small children, unable to form their own opinions, are sent to CCD/Sunday school, or in severe cases Jesus Camp. This is the way you can force someone to be a Christian: get them while they're unable to consider otherwise.

I am a relatively inexperienced Christian. I was raised as one, but did not take it that seriously until recently. Actually, not until I went into the world as an adult. Also, I became aware of some issues in my own life that were beyond my control. Knowing the Creator of the universe makes me realize I am not alone no matter what happens. And everyone faces trials in life.

Do you actually know this Creator, or is he a figment of your imagination?

I know of some people who were real tough characters before being saved. Stereotypical hard-core gangster types. Then they found Jesus, and had their lives completely transformed in a way nothing earthly could do. And not through indoctrination, either. I mean, it was really brief episodes that radically changed them.

Did they actually find Jesus, or were they convinced by fantastical stories which had a positive impact on their lives?

To dismiss something merely because it's only source of evidence is in a written account (which by the way it's not) would be to dismiss most of history.

People dismiss things based on a single written account if that account has been shown to be historically inaccurate or otherwise wrong.

And remember, Christians at one point were a tiny handful of people marked for extermination by the most powerful empire in the world. You have to admit there is something in the Bible worth looking at, or it would never have survived all these years. But as I say, you kind of have to see for yourself.

Unfortunately, it's easy to convince people of things, even if its wrong. A smooth-talker coupled with uneducated people works wonders.

One last thought: many people think lucid dreaming is impossible, and we're all just imagining it. You can't show someone what it's like or prove logically that it's real (though it's been tried), but you can often show them how to do it. They have to agree to try, of course.

Or you can show them the scientific studies produced since the 1960s...

Originally Posted by cedward1

Actually, I have asked many athiests why they do not believe in God, and have never had a satisfactory answer. It's usually based on emotion.

Lack of evidence.

Tell me now. I don't believe that there is a giant cosmic elephant that orbits our sun. Why? There is no evidence to suggest that that is the case. Is that emotional of me?

You know, "not believing in some deity" is a really simple concept that all christians already understand. I don't know why there's so much discussion going on about the semantics of it, as if you can change beliefs by redefining words' and labels' semantic details. It's not such a complicated concept:

Think about Zeus, etc. Think about greek mythology. Think about how you think about greek mythology. It's fascinating to read about it, and some of the tales and metaphors are cute, but ultimately, you don't believe for a second that there is a thunder-flinging deity out there up on top of mount olympus. Now, realize that that's how WE think about christian mythology.

An exercise in using the "quote" function while posting...

What sort of answers have you gotten?

One gentleman said that he prayed for healing for his son, but his son got worse. He decided he did not want to believe in a God that would allow that. A great deal of the other athiests I talked to were Catholics that became dissilusioned with the structure and traditions of the Catholic church, equating these in their minds with an image of God. The rest are in reality agnostics who don't want to believe anything about God, I suppose for fear of being wrong.

I'm not sure any of this makes sense. For one, you discredit your later statements when you first state that we cannot prove Christianity by logical reasoning because its based on faith (a belief in something despite a lack of evidence). Why must all of the bad things in the world be out of our control? It is fallacious to state that if we do have control, evolution or laws would have stopped such bad things from happening. For one, evolution has no goals and thus does not necessarily stop bad things. Secondly, laws are imperfect. People can get around them.

And religious instruction can be considered brainwashing when small children, unable to form their own opinions, are sent to CCD/Sunday school, or in severe cases Jesus Camp. This is the way you can force someone to be a Christian: get them while they're unable to consider otherwise.

I don't believe I discredit any of my statements by saying my trust in Jesus is based on faith rather than logic. I know my own experiences, but to communicate them to someone else via logical syllogisms is rather a difficult undertaking. I can support Christianity, but to prove it 100% is another matter. A belief in God, in my opinion can be proven by logic, but that's a different matter.

Anyone who says the problems of this world are not out of control is deluding themselves. Surely war, rape, child molestation, rampant murder etc., serves no beneficial purpose in society. And I don't know of any sure-fire way to end it. Put two toddlers in a room with one toy, and they'll fight over it. They didn't have to be taught. How can you combat what is a natural inclination in every single human being through natural means?

I don't know of many cases where brainwashing has the effect that Sunday School or Bible Camp does. That is to say some kids like it, some ignore it, some believe and then fall away, while others believe, fall away and later on form their own opinion to join up again. Besides, the same could be said about public school education.

Do you actually know this Creator, or is he a figment of your imagination?

This is not a legitimate question (that is, it simply is a denial of what I just wrote), so I'll skip it.

Did they actually find Jesus, or were they convinced by fantastical stories which had a positive impact on their lives?

Many simply read the Bible with no one talking to them at all. Others had serious issues in their lives they could not overcome on their own.

People dismiss things based on a single written account if that account has been shown to be historically inaccurate or otherwise wrong

True. But that isn't the case with the Bible. Opening a can of worms, I know...

Unfortunately, it's easy to convince people of things, even if its wrong. A smooth-talker coupled with uneducated people works wonders

.

Also true, but many of the early Christians were uneducated people. Whereas the Romans and the Jewish establishment (early Christians were Jews themselves, but not part of the establishment) were considered to be much more educated.

Or you can show them the scientific studies produced since the 1960s

The implications of these are still the subject of debate. But hey, I'm certainly not going to argue against lucid dreaming! If the analogy is poor it's my fault, but I still think it has merit.

Tell me now. I don't believe that there is a giant cosmic elephant that orbits our sun. Why? There is no evidence to suggest that that is the case. Is that emotional of me?

No, but that's partly because there is a whole lot of evidence to suggest there is no cosmic elephant orbiting the sun. On the other hand, there is evidence to suggest the existence of a Creator (such as Creation, and the now widely accepted Big Bang theory that suggests that the universe came from nothingness), and very little against His existence.

I'm not saying all athiests base their belief on emotion, just some of the ones I've talked to.

I share your opinion, ClouD. I find it off-putting that so many people believe in a book; if no one had heard of God before, no one would have so-called religious experiences. It's a huge placebo effect.

Besides, it's physically impossible for a guy to be reincarnated after being buried, and float in the sky.

That sounded a bit harsh, but that's just my two cents.

Originally Posted by cedward1

An exercise in using the "quote" function while posting...

Is this directed at me?

One gentleman said that he prayed for healing for his son, but his son got worse. He decided he did not want to believe in a God that would allow that. A great deal of the other athiests I talked to were Catholics that became dissilusioned with the structure and traditions of the Catholic church, equating these in their minds with an image of God. The rest are in reality agnostics who don't want to believe anything about God, I suppose for fear of being wrong.

While they all may be based on emotion, I'm not sure there's anything wrong with them. All of them seem to be against what the religion has taught them.

And I'm also not sure the agnostics didn't want to believe anything about god due to a fear of being wrong. They probably don't see evidence, much like the rest of us. But who knows.

I don't believe I discredit any of my statements by saying my trust in Jesus is based on faith rather than logic. I know my own experiences, but to communicate them to someone else via logical syllogisms is rather a difficult undertaking. I can support Christianity, but to prove it 100% is another matter. A belief in God, in my opinion can be proven by logic, but that's a different matter.

That's my point. You can't support your case with reasoning or evidence, so you rely on faith. Sort of undermines the whole case for Christianity. Also, how can a belief in God be proven by logic? Christianity revolves around a belief in God, which, as you already stated, cannot be proven by logic.

Anyone who says the problems of this world are not out of control is deluding themselves. Surely war, rape, child molestation, rampant murder etc., serves no beneficial purpose in society. And I don't know of any sure-fire way to end it. Put two toddlers in a room with one toy, and they'll fight over it. They didn't have to be taught. How can you combat what is a natural inclination in every single human being through natural means?

Depends on what you mean by "natural means." Just to be clear, I didn't say problems are this world aren't out of our control. I only asked why.

I don't know of many cases where brainwashing has the effect that Sunday School or Bible Camp does. That is to say some kids like it, some ignore it, some believe and then fall away, while others believe, fall away and later on form their own opinion to join up again. Besides, the same could be said about public school education.

Indeed it can, which is why I'm against public schooling. But that's beside the point. Sunday school ingrains in most children a belief in the Christian god, or at the very least some belief in a creator. Until or unless they go through a de-brainwashing process (as in learning about how the world actually works instead of chalking the unknown up to a creator), they seem brainwashed in a sense to me.

This is not a legitimate question (that is, it simply is a denial of what I just wrote), so I'll skip it.

It is a legitimate question. You state that you know the Creator. I'm asking if you actually know him, or if he is a figment of your imagination. Basically I'm asking you to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you actually know him.

Many simply read the Bible with no one talking to them at all. Others had serious issues in their lives they could not overcome on their own.

This doesn't answer my question, especially since you can be convinced of fantastical stories in solitude.

True. But that isn't the case with the Bible. Opening a can of worms, I know...

I wouldn't expect any less.

Also true, but many of the early Christians were uneducated people. Whereas the Romans and the Jewish establishment (early Christians were Jews themselves, but not part of the establishment) were considered to be much more educated.

I was talking moreso about people who are not educated in science or reasoning (or in general, really). I'm saying it's easy to convince such people, especially with smooth-talkers.

Originally Posted by cedward1

and the now widely accepted Big Bang theory that suggests that the universe came from nothingness

Why is this "idea" so popular amongst religious folk, the Big Bang doesn't suggest this at all...

It honestly really upsets me to see a troll in these forums. Take it elsewhere man.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Why is this "idea" so popular amongst religious folk, the Big Bang doesn't suggest this at all...

Ya, this is actually true.
The Big Bang theory doesn't suggest that the universe came from nothing.
And to abstain from calling people "religious folk" I'm going to talk about theists in general.
Both theistic and non-theistic scientists agree on one thing, there had to be something eternal.

The Big Bang implies that there was a cosmos that was eternal, which the big bang occurred within.
Theists- and I'll add that many theists also beleive in the big bang- would say that there is a higher-power, or a god that was eternal who created the cosmos.

.

I would also advise those of you who are making some very serious claims that their is no logical proofs for the existence of god, that there is in fact many good arguments.

Just do your research before you post some ridiculous thread about how you think Christians are stupid.
If you wanted to have a civilized discussion about this, you probably shouldn't of started with berating the people you wanted answers from. Your just spouting off insults, and calling theists incapable and unintelligent. Trying to evoke emotion is a terrible ploy.

Im not saying this as a christian or as a theist, but look into both sides of an argument before making biased claims.
You're just giving yourself the impression of being an under-educated asshole.

Look up some stuff on:
Substance dualism,
Gödel's ontological proof
The Cosmological argument
Teleological argument
Ontological argument
Argument from degree
The Arguement from Reason

Also read up on Kant, Aquinas, and Descartes.

For you to say that theists are unintelligent, is to discredit some of the most ingenious scientists and philosophers in the world.
Don't be so stupid and quick to point out other peoples "problems."
All you've done is make an ass out of yourself.

Originally Posted by noiseissound

Berating words and a call for further research.

To be fair, people who view the Bible as a literal transcription of God's word are typically idiots to some degree. Most of these people haven't even read the thing, let alone done research on the historical periods surrounding its various texts, which I might add paint much of the book in a very revealing light.

Fun fact, did you know that when the Christian Bible was first being assembled many of the decisions were made over copious amounts of alcohol?

Word of God indeed.

Originally Posted by cedward1

No, but that's partly because there is a whole lot of evidence to suggest there is no cosmic elephant orbiting the sun. On the other hand, there is evidence to suggest the existence of a Creator (such as Creation, and the now widely accepted Big Bang theory that suggests that the universe came from nothingness), and very little against His existence.

Now we're making progress. Notice that my example was specific. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that there are massive bodies orbiting the sun. I made it specific by making the particular object a cosmic elephant. You claim that the universe, based on your understanding of it, can have a creator. That's fine and dandy. Plenty (most?) atheists believe that that's entirely possible, but any of the evidence in favor of that is either not plentiful enough or not understood well enough to claim definitively that the evidence is suggestive of a creator and not some other phenomenon. Once you begin to make specific claims about a creator is when you begin moving beyond any of the alleged evidence altogether. The reason the OP makes a claim about Christians is because Christianity, like many of the world religions, make very specific claims about the creator they believe in. Why? You said "His" at the end of the quote here. Is there evidence to suggest that the creator has a gender? Do you see where I'm going with this?

Originally Posted by noiseissound

It honestly really upsets me to see a troll in these forums. Take it elsewhere man.

Stay on topic or do not post. Calling people trolls is not contributing to the discussion. Fin.

Originally Posted by noiseissound

I would also advise those of you who are making some very serious claims that their is no logical proofs for the existence of god, that there is in fact many good arguments.

Just do your research before you post some ridiculous thread about how you think Christians are stupid.
If you wanted to have a civilized discussion about this, you probably shouldn't of started with berating the people you wanted answers from. Your just spouting off insults, and calling theists incapable and unintelligent. Trying to evoke emotion is a terrible ploy.

Im not saying this as a christian or as a theist, but look into both sides of an argument before making biased claims.
You're just giving yourself the impression of being an under-educated asshole.

Look up some stuff on:
Substance dualism,
Gödel's ontological proof
The Cosmological argument
Teleological argument
Ontological argument
Argument from degree
The Arguement from Reason

Also read up on Kant, Aquinas, and Descartes.

For you to say that theists are unintelligent, is to discredit some of the most ingenious scientists and philosophers in the world.
Don't be so stupid and quick to point out other peoples "problems."
All you've done is make an ass out of yourself.

Address me directly please, don't try to start flame wars and use disinformation tactics. If there are good arguments or reasons, please note them here so that they can be discussed, telling everybody to do their own research is not beneficial to the thread.

Evoking emotion is not the point, as I have outlined. I have an opinion, and it has been pointed out in a way to get attention to the thread. Discontinue this tangent of discussion, it's only serving to derail the thread. As for biased claims, that is mostly all these topics are, there can be no absolute objectivity, and pretentious righteousness in that regard is not valid when you back it up with insults. If you're going to call anyone an asshole or a troll again, then stay out of my thread; otherwise, keep on topic and post your findings.

Continuing to provoke flame-wars will have the thread closed at my request. Please don't let it get to that.

Originally Posted by cedward1

Hmmm, "you're stupid because of your beliefs. I demand an explanation!" Don't know if someone this insulting and narrow minded deserves an answer. I'll think it over, then perhaps post my testimony later. Might be more tempted were I not sworn at in the original post.

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. The statement is not so inflammatory that you must disregard the point and focus on your pride.

Originally Posted by cedward1

Actually, I have asked many athiests why they do not believe in God, and have never had a satisfactory answer. It's usually based on emotion.

It seems from his tone that his intention was not to hear the other side of the story, but to mock and try to "expose" Christians as being idiots. You find this type of post everywhere there is a forum. He says himself "you might convert me from thinking Christians are stupid", not "you might change my mind here". Nobody who says "you're stupid for what you believe" over and over really wants to be enlightened.

Still, I won't judge him. I guess being patronized and called stupid just annoyed me a little. Probably he really does want to know some answers here, because this is an important issue.

Anyway, a brief testimony:

You cannot prove Christianity by logical reasoning. It is based on faith. It requires one to aknlowedge that there is something wrong with the world around them, and then that this same sickness (a.k.a. "sin") is preying on them, too. It is beyond any of our control, or else evolution or laws would have stopped it by now. How to be saved from this? You have to form your own conclusion. When someone is "saved" they are just shown an option for salvation, and something pushes them towards it. That's why missions work is so successful. It isn't based on "brainwashing", but on spreading Good News. You can't force someone to be a Christian.

I am a relatively inexperienced Christian. I was raised as one, but did not take it that seriously until recently. Actually, not until I went into the world as an adult. Also, I became aware of some issues in my own life that were beyond my control. Knowing the Creator of the universe makes me realize I am not alone no matter what happens. And everyone faces trials in life.

I know of some people who were real tough characters before being saved. Stereotypical hard-core gangster types. Then they found Jesus, and had their lives completely transformed in a way nothing earthly could do. And not through indoctrination, either. I mean, it was really brief episodes that radically changed them.

To dismiss something merely because it's only source of evidence is in a written account (which by the way it's not) would be to dismiss most of history. And remember, Christians at one point were a tiny handful of people marked for extermination by the most powerful empire in the world. You have to admit there is something in the Bible worth looking at, or it would never have survived all these years. But as I say, you kind of have to see for yourself.

A little disjointed, I know...

One last thought: many people think lucid dreaming is impossible, and we're all just imagining it. You can't show someone what it's like or prove logically that it's real (though it's been tried), but you can often show them how to do it. They have to agree to try, of course.

I'll disregard the first half of this post, seeing as it's irrelevant banter.

+ You say you cannot prove Christianity through logical reasoning. Why not?
You say it requires knowledge of sin in the world around them to believe in Christianity, but that is circular reasoning. Sin only exists within Christian belief, so it cannot be a prerequisite for it. Please consider this. If you're saying that moral judgements of the world, coincidentally directly aligned with Christian doctrine, is the reason for belief, I would say it's quite far-fetched and hard to believe. In that claim, I assume that the person must be seeing the world through Christian doctrine, for example after they were introduced to the bible or forced into religion by parents; for someone to completely agree with Christianity without prior knowledge of the book or indoctrination, is as I said, far-fetched.

+ Please explain why you may still believe that we can not wilfully control our actions as human beings, and why you yourself cannot control your "sins".
If you can't control your "sins", then it doesn't make sense to do anything about it.
"It is beyond any of our control, or else evolution or laws would have stopped it by now."
I don't understand why you might have formulated this idea. Do you believe that it is beyond your control not to commit these acts (so-called sin)? If you believe it's out of your control, then your choice to not sin would be redundant -- you would have no control over such a thing. I think that people choose to "commit sins", and that people could choose, with their own will, to not do so (not that I think they should necessarily stop so-called "sin"). Christianity is not required to not "commit sins".

+ Please tell me what issues "in your own life" that you feel are beyond your control, and exactly why.

+ You say you "know" the Creator of the universe. How do you know, without a doubt? What has happened in your life to convince you that you do, and why do you think you were convinced by it to such a definite extent?
You also say that knowing makes you realise you are not alone, no matter what happens. This sounds like what I said about it possibly being used as a "fairytale fantasy", something comforting to you, a coping mechanism.

+ Why do you believe that the survival of the bible for all these years, means there is something in there worth looking at?
Many things have survived for all those years, and longer. Like some other religions that were before the bible was written, some having incredibly hateful beliefs, similar to some in the bible. Do you think those are worth looking at too? If so, why haven't you looked at them like you have the bible? Why do you accept the bible and not accept much of the other scripts out there?
Why?

As a last note, nothing can be proved outside of subjectivity.

Cloud, is it just Christianity and the bible you have a problem with - Or is it the whole idea of a God in general that confuses you? Surely you have put faith is something other than the arrogance of humans.

Cloud

Dear, dear, friend

Words, descriptions, labels

Like buckets of water

Waves crashing and breaking against the shores of reality

Making their noise as the retreat once again into the ocean

Sinking into the depths, out of sight, out of mind


I believe not in the words that are Christianity..

But in the depths of meaning beneath them


I believe not in the figurehead of Christ

But in the reality of "God" within


I belive not in the visible Church

But in the map that lies underneath


I believe not in the external label others would apply

But in the Self intertwined with me that guides from within


Everthing under the sun has multiple layers

Everything has meaning buried within

Like Cake under the frosting

What one sees outside is not the cake

Originally Posted by noiseissound

If you wanted to have a civilized discussion about this, you probably shouldn't of started with berating the people you wanted answers from. Your just spouting off insults, and calling theists incapable and unintelligent. Trying to evoke emotion is a terrible ploy.

Exactly. That's one reason I have avoided answering his post directly but instead shared my views for the benefit of the other posters. He is just looking for a fight, not a discussion. By definition, that makes him a troll.

Starting the way he did ensured that all Christians would either skip this thread or start off on the defensive trying to use their faith to "blast" the OP. Not a good way for a philisophical discussion.

And his saying not to start "flame wars" is irony to a ridiculous degree.

But that's my opinion, maybe he thinks he's being thoughtful.

Originally Posted by cedward1

Exactly. That's one reason I have avoided answering his post directly but instead shared my views for the benefit of the other posters. He is just looking for a fight, not a discussion. By definition, that makes him a troll.

Starting the way he did ensured that all Christians would either skip this thread or start off on the defensive trying to use their faith to "blast" the OP. Not a good way for a philisophical discussion.

And his saying not to start "flame wars" is irony to a ridiculous degree.

But that's my opinion, maybe he thinks he's being thoughtful.

I mostly agree. This thread started off badly and it's only getting worse.

Although this is not the kind of debate I really want to get too wrapped up in, I do want to address one thing:

Originally Posted by cedward1

On the other hand, there is evidence to suggest the existence of a Creator (such as Creation...)

I'm sorry, but 'creation,' itself is not evidence to suggest the existence of a creator. What so many religious folk don't understand about the universe (and evolution, it seems), is that creation isn't perfect. All of the wondrous "workings" of nature and the universe aren't always perfect, nor have they ever been. All of these processes that we have on Earth are the same processes that take place elsewhere in the universe. It's just that Earth happens to be one of those planets where conditions are favorable to support life. Planets do die out. Some can only sustain microbial life (so we suspect). Some planets never become more than giant balls of rock or ice or gas. There are literally trillions upon trillions of different examples of how this "wondrous, perfect process, which could only have been made by an all powerful creator" has failed.

The only reason it is so wondrous to us is because we have no other frame of reference. We were born unto this planet, because this planet has sustained the process long enough for us to be born. But many theists take this (quite pompously) to mean that this world was put here FOR us - basically placing the cart before the horse. Same thing goes with evolution - which is the main thing I don't get about theists lack of understanding about nature. There are examples of evolution all around. I mean literally all around. Different species come from different families, come from different ancestors, etc, with the smallest physical and behavioral changes taking place, over time. I mean, it's right there. How do people not understand that?

But, anyway. I just say all that, to say that creation is a flawed, violent process which, in many instances, just doesn't work the way it's supposed to. But people get so caught up in the 'wonder' that they fail to see this. It's like "look at the way the sun stays at just the right angles, daily, to support life on our planet. Clearly, this is the work of an all-powerful creator!" No. This is the work of a mundane physical process. But since we live on the only rock in our neighborhood that is in the right spot for the process to be life-supporting, we think that process was made for us. I think it to be pretty arrogant, actually.

TO ALL THOSE THAT JUST DON'T GET IT:
Please do not pollute my thread. I am not looking for a fucking fight. I don't give a shit what anyone thinks about the thread, I'm looking for responses to legitimate questions, that keep seeming to be avoided. Not a single reply to my questions, yet.

The truth, I think that most Christians and generally Christianity are fucking stupid. There's some aspects that aren't, yeah, some aspects that I consider good religiousness, without all the bullshit. It's a damn honest opinion, if I was looking for a "fight" I would tell you straight up, stop questioning my motives because you don't want to answer the fucking questions. I genuinely think that if you use double-think and circular reasoning to explain why you believe in something, you are being STUPID. I don't care if you think that's harsh, take it as an opinion or stay out, that goes for everyone. It was not intended as an insult, only used in a mildly inflammatory manner, to attract attention to the thread. No, I do not think it needs to be changed, I think people need to stop being so fucking pretentious. Yes, I am being somewhat hypocritical, but that's not the point of the thread.

Swallow your damn pride and answer the questions. I've been as polite and terse as I can in asking my questions to people in the thread, and if another person calls me an asshole or a troll and it's fine by the staff here, then I hope they condone the flame war that it will become, because I'm not standing for that shit.

TL;DR, disregard my possible opinion that you may be stupid and answer the questions.

I'm genuinely wanting to know WHY you believe what you do. I have not encountered a person of "belief" that does not believe with stupidity. I.E. DOUBLE THINK, CIRCULAR REASONING, ETC. The semantics can be argued, but again that's not the point of the thread, I want to know the why.

Please, just stop taking religion so seriously and swallow your pride to answer a few honest questions. On-topic from now, I hope to God.

Waiting for responses from, with hope and faith:
cedward1
ooflendoodle
greenhavoc
Yungen
Irken

Originally Posted by ClouD

It was not intended as an insult, only used in a mildly inflammatory manner, to attract attention to the thread. No, I do not think it needs to be changed, I think people need to stop being so fucking pretentious. Yes, I am being somewhat hypocritical, but that's not the point of the thread.

ClouD. You started an inflammatory thread, and you got the most foreseeable responses. I hate to say, dude, but you have no one to blame but yourself.

I would LOVE to give the answer you're looking for. But I believe in the Bible.
Here's a link that, IMHO, is filled with great answers to many of your questions. I'm not scientifically inclined
[in before lock, BRB]
Index - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site

If that makes me stupid, then I'm stupid.
I take the evidence, as I understand it to be, and believe in God. But I don't believe in main-stream Christianity.
I don't believe a just God would send people to Hell. Hell is hyperbole. All good people do NOT go to Heaven.
People need to look at the Bible as a whole. Too many people believe because their parents did or because their community expects it of them. They believe what their preacher says even if he says to "just believe" or "no one can understand". Sincere study reveals those mysteries.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

ClouD. You started an inflammatory thread, and you got the most foreseeable responses. I hate to say, dude, but you have no one to blame but yourself.

I've acknowledged the hypocrisy. I think there's plenty of others in this thread to blame as well as myself though. I set a low bar, some people just can't seem to jump over it, and keep trying to make it seem like it's ten miles high.

If Cloud was looking for an intelligent answer, he would simply refer to or consctruct a definition of belief. That definition and definition alone determines class membership. Any dim wit knows that if one has no definition they can piss in the snow till they turn blue and not make a dent.