Thread: To all the christians :D

Originally Posted by Spartiate

What about the Bible?

I´ve covered that too:

"(...)or command you to read a book - impliyng that his works and plans and commands are written in the book(...)"

Oops sorry. Well if you don't get your idea of "god" from the Church, and you don't get it from the Bible (or other holy texts)... where do you get it from?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Oops sorry. Well if you don't get your idea of "god" from the Church, and you don't get it from the Bible (or other holy texts)... where do you get it from?

I didn´t criticized anything (idea, thought, pylosophy) without anylizing and studying it first. The basis of the concept of God i got it like everybody else...from the surroundings (education, media..etc..).

From that point i started to raise questions, to doubt (no i´m not traumatized i just don´t accept everything without thinking and put it into perspective). When i started doubting, i started looking for inconsistencies...and i started to form my "idea" of what god is not.

What I'm trying to get at is that if all your surroundings from where you get the idea of god are wrong (which I agree with), have you ever seriously considered that god simply doesn't exist?

Otherwise what reason do you have for believing?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

What I'm trying to get at is that if all your surroundings from where you get the idea of god are wrong (which I agree with), have you ever seriously considered that god simply doesn't exist?

Otherwise what reason do you have for believing?

Besides personal believes (wich doesn´t answer your question ) i´m a science student ( Theoretical Physics), and everything i study and observe, every Universal and planetary phenomena shows me that everything happens within certain laws - the laws of physics...well, laws are logical and promote order. Order can only be established intentionally, because Chaos exists only when it exists lack of order and intented direction and Thought. So, if the Universe have laws = specific Order of events and elements, that it is organized,, if it is organized, it is not random, if it is not random then an intention and planning exist, if that exists then an organized and defined thought exist, if an organized thought exists then Intelligence exists, and in this case an Universal Intelligence. I always find it hard to rationally understand, even though i accept the opinion, when someone says that our existence was just a random event...when in fact it is a concerted and very well defined chain of events.

Originally Posted by Surukien

Besides personal believes (wich doesn´t answer your question ) i´m a science student ( Theoretical Physics), and everything i study and observe, every Universal and planetary phenomena shows me that everything happens within certain laws - the laws of physics...well, laws are logical and promote order. Order can only be established intentionally, because Chaos exists only when it exists lack of order and intented direction and Thought. So, if the Universe have laws = specific Order of events and elements, that it is organized,, if it is organized, it is not random, if it is not random then an intention and planning exist, if that exists then an organized and defined thought exist, if an organized thought exists then Intelligence exists, and in this case an Universal Intelligence. I always find it hard to rationally understand, even though i accept the opinion, when someone says that our existence was just a random event...when in fact it is a concerted and very well defined chain of events.

My word, I think you just murdered logic.

Originally Posted by Surukien

Besides personal believes (wich doesn´t answer your question ) i´m a science student ( Theoretical Physics), and everything i study and observe, every Universal and planetary phenomena shows me that everything happens within certain laws - the laws of physics...well, laws are logical and promote order. Order can only be established intentionally, because Chaos exists only when it exists lack of order and intented direction and Thought. So, if the Universe have laws = specific Order of events and elements, that it is organized,, if it is organized, it is not random, if it is not random then an intention and planning exist, if that exists then an organized and defined thought exist, if an organized thought exists then Intelligence exists, and in this case an Universal Intelligence. I always find it hard to rationally understand, even though i accept the opinion, when someone says that our existence was just a random event...when in fact it is a concerted and very well defined chain of events.

This might just be the most convoluted wording of the "irreducible complexity" fallacy I've read to date.

Why???

Don´t take something like Logic too serious...each one of us is a unique Gestalt with their own rules and processes...there is no well defined Logic in a debate, only Gestalt collision...
(P.S.: i´m going out for a beer with some friends...this conversation is getting interesting, if someone wants to continue PM me or post here...just saying this in case somebody thinks i just ignored a post about this subject )

Originally Posted by Surukien

Why???

Don´t take something like Logic too serious...

This is called a self-refuting argument (also sometimes called a self-detonating argument). By trying to argue that logic doesn't exist, you are attempting to use logic to sway your opponent, thereby reaffirming the existence of logic.

I would take logic seriously, the very words we speak/write rely on the rules of logic as well as computers and well everything. Order isn't only established intentionally, order is established through patterns that arise out of simple interactions. Order can self-organize without external pressures. And also chaos is a kind of aperiodic order.

Originally Posted by cmind

This is called a self-refuting argument (also sometimes called a self-detonating argument). By trying to argue that logic doesn't exist, you are attempting to use logic to sway your opponent, thereby reaffirming the existence of logic.

This is called this, and this is called that...you as a gestalt consider my arguments like that. If a different guy (Gestalt) would comment on this would probably say that what i said could be an anti-social argument, or a "get away" argument or even a alienated argument...different Gestalts, different rules, different comments. Still dont take logic too serious. I don´t have too.

" "Is," "is." "is" — the idiocy of the word haunts me. If it were abolished, human thought might begin to make sense. I don't know what anything "is"; I only know how it seems to me at this moment."

- Robert Anton Wilson

What the hell are you talking about? Either my reading comprehension is slipping or people here don't know how to communicate clearly.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

What the hell are you talking about? Either my reading comprehension is slipping or people here don't know how to communicate clearly.

It's like he's the bastard child of Chayba and Philosopher789456.

I think he's being quite clear...

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

What the hell are you talking about? Either my reading comprehension is slipping or people here don't know how to communicate clearly.

Probably both, or then only the first. Don´t worry.

Originally Posted by Mario92

It's like he's the bastard child of Chayba and Philosopher789456.

Don´t know both, ,but you say that like it´s a bad thing...

Originally Posted by dajo

I think he's being quite clear...

Thanks dajo!

I suggest Surukien stabs himself in the neck with a knife to prove his point (no pun intended). Afterall, if logic is not to be taken seriously, and the laws of physics are based solely on logical principles, then there's no reason that knife should kill him.

Logic is always based on the individuals experience of the world. There is no absolute logic. I don't see why Surukien's view of the Universe should make other people upset or threaten anyone. Plenty of people see order and intention laid out throughout the Universe. It's their right to experience reality as they like. What has that got to do with any of you?

Originally Posted by juroara

Logic is always based on the individuals experience of the world. There is no absolute logic. I don't see why Surukien's view of the Universe should make other people upset or threaten anyone. Plenty of people see order and intention laid out throughout the Universe. It's their right to experience reality as they like. What has that got to do with any of you?

The Religion and Spirituality section wouldn't really be very interesting if everyone just said "yes I agree..."
And no one ever said he didn't have a right to believe whatever he wants to believe.

Originally Posted by dajo

I think he's being quite clear...

So then explain what he said.

Originally Posted by juroara

There is no absolute logic.

2+2 ?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

2+2 ?

5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't you see? It's all relative! We're all connected!

Originally Posted by juroara

Logic is always based on the individuals experience of the world. There is no absolute logic. I don't see why Surukien's view of the Universe should make other people upset or threaten anyone. Plenty of people see order and intention laid out throughout the Universe. It's their right to experience reality as they like. What has that got to do with any of you?

Thanks.