If ...

**syzygy** · 11-25-2007 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by Keeper

"If - hypothetically speaking - you found out for a fact that God really does exist, under what circumstances would you feel obligated to Worship Him?"

By asking this question, I think you have a very confused sense of God. It is not some super-duper being that commands people to tell others how good it is and to define their lives by a literal translation of a book, even if it subrational. This makes absolutely no sense on any level. What would a god like this possibly get out of people doing these things? This type of subrational thinking is used by people to control other people.

Finding out that God exists and Worshiping Him are not two separate things. The only way to prove that God exists for yourself is to Worship Him, but by Worship I mean something very different that what you seem to think. God is not something you convince yourself of and then tell other people to convince themselves of. The only way to truly Worship God is to rid yourself of your limited ego so that you become receptive to the Infinite, therefore 'becoming' It (you can't actually 'become' It in a literal sense because you are already That; the act of 'becoming' can only be perceived from the perspective of a limited being). To Worship God is then a change of state in one's being from a limited, egotistical point of view to a point of view which understands, intuitively, that no separation actually exists. No one should believe in God because they were told to by someone and then blindly do what they are told. One should only believe in God when they have realized within their being that "they are That". When one does this, they simultaneously prove to themselves that God exists and Worship It.

I quote a famous hadith among Islamic mystics: "I was a hidden Treasure and I yearned to be known. Then I created creatures in order to be known by them, in order to become in them the object of my knowledge." Creation, Knowledge, Worship, and Love are all the same act, the same state of being. God experiencing God in God, through God, and by God.

Religion is the search for Knowledge that the rational mind cannot know by itself. Too often, unfortunately, people confuse the suprarational and the subrational in a duality of rational vs. irrational. Because this search for Knowledge is not rational, organized religion has been able to use other's confusion for their own wealth and power. Instead of using your rational mind to search beyond it, organized religion seeks to diminish your rational mind so that you are susceptible to its wishes. This is where the whole idea of god as a ruler and his creations as servants comes in. If they can get you to accept this, you will accept anything else they tell you, out of fear. Think for yourself. Prove it to yourself, by yourself, and for yourself.

**Sandform** · 11-25-2007 04:28 AM

Well, if worshipping him only meant caring about everyone, and trying to live life to its fullest...then I would worship him.

and since I see the nature of human beings to be inclined to doing as such, I would have to assume that this would be the only principle he cared about and instilled into the universe...with contradictions existing pretty much everywhere you look!

If a place of torture existed I would be forced to object to God, regardless of what that would mean.

However, God would have to be self-involved to desire to create, or really desire anything in the first place. This would lead me not to desire to worship him, I know I have my own ego, but a perfect being should not. While at the same time, it is not right to hate flawed beings, which if god exists in the way that most people percieve him, he is most certainly flawed, and not perfect.

I wonder...Is it possible perhaps that, if a god exists, its personality changes as it grows, and it can become "warped" into evil, or changed into the mind frame of a good being? That would be the only explaination for why, if a god exists, it would permit evil 'and' good to exist.

**Stupified** · 11-26-2007 04:31 AM

Before space and time, there was the singularity - the everything - the only thing - and therefore the nothing. It had awareness and knowing. It knew it was brilliant but could not experience it's brilliance. It expressed itself, pushing out (big bang), creating space, time and us (among other things). We are God's way of God experiencing Itself. We cannot experience love without fear. We cannot experience our light until we enter the darkness.
We create, experience the creation, and enter a state of being. Father, Son, Holy Gost. Created in his image means we are made of the same stuff.

Personifying God is not the way to go. It leads to confusion. Thinking God has an ego, needs worship, wants to punish us or is the one to blame for this or that only leads to more suffering.

**♥Mark** · 11-26-2007 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by Stupified

It leads to confusion.

And confusion leads to posts like that.

**thegnome54** · 11-26-2007 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by Stupified

It had awareness and knowing.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold on there! Since when can awareness and knowing exist outside of a neural network, or even a living creature?

Seems like massive conjecture, to me.

**Stupified** · 11-26-2007 04:56 AM

It is like saying a tree has awareness. A tree knows it's a tree. I doesn't think it's a tree. The seed knows up from down. A single celled organism doesn't think but is aware. I even believe light and matter have an awareness.

**thegnome54** · 11-26-2007 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Stupified

It is like saying a tree has awareness. A tree knows it's a tree. I doesn't think it's a tree. The seed knows up from down. A single celled organism doesn't think but is aware. I even believe light and matter have an awareness.

Do you have a shred of evidence for any of that?

Why would a seed know up from down? That's like saying a rock knows up from down because it falls 'down' when you drop it. Just because something follows physical law in a way which results in emergent properties similar to those found in sentient beings does not make it a sentient being...

Is your computer aware?

**Stupified** · 11-26-2007 06:04 AM

This boils down to "Does consciousness exist outside of our physical bodies?" I believe it does. It will never be proven because that would verify the existence of the supernatural or metaphysical. To have proof of these things would brake the "law of confusion" or free will. If I was to prove to you exactlly who you really are, then you could not determine that for yourself. You are here to choose, create, experience and become You.

**Moonbeam** · 11-26-2007 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Stupified

To have proof of these things would brake the "law of confusion" or free will.

That's one law we shouldn't avoid braking.

**ClouD** · 11-26-2007 02:44 PM

I like the word evidence ^__^.

So subjective, it's ironic.

Why does 1 = 1?

Explain this to me please.

**thegnome54** · 11-26-2007 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Stupified

This boils down to "Does consciousness exist outside of our physical bodies?" I believe it does.

WHY?

Originally Posted by Stupified

To have proof of these things would brake the "law of confusion" or free will.

Determinism killed free will. Either we are predictable and not free, or we are random and still not free.

**Lucid_boy** · 11-27-2007 09:09 PM

It makes me sad to see so many bashing on a god you know nothing about. this is starting to feel redundant. You (Atheists) ask the same questions over and over again and when I or someone like myself gives you the answer you don't listen.

**thegnome54** · 11-27-2007 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

It makes me sad to see so many bashing on a god you know nothing about. this is starting to feel redundant. You (Atheists) ask the same questions over and over again and when I or someone like myself gives you the answer you don't listen.

Personally, I don't discriminate much between gods. I've bashed Thor and Loki just as much as God and God (some religions are clearly less creative than others when it comes to naming these concoctions)

The reason we ask the same questions over and over again is probably because you people never quite answer them properly. For example, I asked Stupified if he had any evidence for his beliefs, and he simply replied that he believed in his beliefs (which I would think it was quite obvious I already knew).

But anyways, what would YOU do IF... you were to find out that a) There was no God, or b) There WAS a god, but his name was Thor. Would you forget all about your 'old' god and worship Thor?

**Sornaensis** · 11-27-2007 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

It makes me sad to see so many bashing on a god you know nothing about. this is starting to feel redundant. You (Atheists) ask the same questions over and over again and when I or someone like myself gives you the answer you don't listen.

I'm sorry, you know so much about God(s)? I never knew you've talked to h(im)/(er)/it before!

**vee** · 11-27-2007 09:23 PM

This worship thing. It sounds like a man thing. It doesn't sound correct and doesn't feel correct. Like I say...sounds like what a man might think up. Since men admire and adore and worship strong things. Like they love fights, football, horseplay. (Nothing wrong with that.) But like I say. Men worship other men who are stronger than them. They worship them by loving and adoring them for being the strongest and best at basketball or whatever. So is that what it means? Anybody care to weigh in.

**Sornaensis** · 11-27-2007 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by vee

This worship thing. It sounds like a man thing. It doesn't sound correct and doesn't feel correct. Like I say...sounds like what a man might think up. Since men admire and adore and worship strong things. Like they love fights, football, horseplay. (Nothing wrong with that.) But like I say. Men worship other men who are stronger than them. They worship them by loving and adoring them for being the strongest and best at basketball or whatever. So is that what it means? Anybody care to weigh in.

Yes. It is obvious that worship is an arrogant, bigot trait possessed by humans to control other humans.

**iLight** · 11-27-2007 10:40 PM

Uhmm.. im a atheist, would i pray and service god if he existed?

Answer : First thing i would do, is write a huge letter with a big middle finger on it. Thats my service to him. Than i would give a visit to "Devil" since he is part of god isnt he.

**Keeper** · 11-28-2007 07:01 AM

I think people are forgetting what this thread is about

**grasshoppa** · 11-28-2007 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by Keeper

Its been awhile ...

This is just a hypothetical question for the Atheists in the Forum: "If - hypothetically speaking - you found out for a fact that God really does exist, under what circumstances would you feel obligated to Worship Him?"

For the life of me I can't remember seeing this asked here, but I think it is a very relevant question for helping both sides to understand the other.

Under what circumstances would I worship a god if this god were proven to be true.

That's a hard question to answer. There would be no circumstances. If there were proof of this god then thats all I need.

**LucidFlanders** · 11-28-2007 08:58 AM

If he existed, i would not care. i don't believe in god (although i'm not an athiest and still answering the question), although i do the afterlife but that doesn't mean thee has to be a god anyway. I would not care, i have, and we have our own life to worry about then trying to suck up to some....thing! You gotta do what you gotta do to survive, not dismiss it alittle bit because you need 'god worship" time every day for an hour or 2. More important things you can do in those 1-2 hours...like
donate to some charity or go to work, or something that matters, not that doesn't matter.

If he existed, he has no controll over us and our decision making so blaming him for the worlds problems is extremly dumb. We know right from wrong so why would we need an ultimate "controller" of life forcing us to do what's right when it's..our...own decision? we can stop when we wanna stop but we don't so we wont. Like smoking, you wanna quit then just quit, don't blame god for not being able to quit, it's your choice to stop, not gods.

If you created life inside a glass in the palm of your hand and watched it grow over time and gave them all things we have and know to function in the world would you force it to do what's right, or would you rather them make their own decision seeing how your expieriment can work like?
if you're a power hungry crazed person you would force things down their throats like how the world works, and my work.

**Lucid_boy** · 11-28-2007 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

I'm sorry, you know so much about God(s)? I never knew you've talked to h(im)/(er)/it before!

ok that was pure Antagonism. Did I say I talk to god? I simple stated that multiple times have I answered the same questions and I was ignored.

**Lucid_boy** · 11-28-2007 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by thegnome54

Personally, I don't discriminate much between gods. I've bashed Thor and Loki just as much as God and God (some religions are clearly less creative than others when it comes to naming these concoctions)

The reason we ask the same questions over and over again is probably because you people never quite answer them properly. For example, I asked Stupified if he had any evidence for his beliefs, and he simply replied that he believed in his beliefs (which I would think it was quite obvious I already knew).

But anyways, what would YOU do IF... you were to find out that a) There was no God, or b) There WAS a god, but his name was Thor. Would you forget all about your 'old' god and worship Thor?

hmm To answer A I would probably go out murdering, bank robbing, drug selling or maybe just devote my life to ammassing cash. To answer B I would not worship Thor. I could never betray my lord and master.