Thread: A challenge for the Atheist

Originally Posted by Avalon Jr.

THIS, is completly false, i chose to believe in christ, whether my family told me to or not, i am subjected to raw aethism every day, and i have a choice whether or not to believe in god.

You misunderstand what he is saying. You actually believe christ exists. Whatever reasoning faculties you have have led you to that conclusion. There is a difference between agreeing and choosing.

He wasn't saying you are "forced" to believe, though technically I think you were, he was saying your reasoning faculties which lead you to believe a thing have nothing to do with choice, but instead with what you agree constitutes enough evidence or proof. You can no more choose to believe that your hair color is naturally blonde, than you could choose to believe that it is naturally green. You could no more choose christ exists over not exists.

In honesty if you are "choosing" to believe, then you aren't actually believing. When you believe something that means that there is nothing, short of new evidence, that could lead you to think that it is otherwise. If your belief is a choice then that means you are capable of choosing that he doesn't exist. This means that the evidence, in your eyes, must be so severely lacking that you actually know jesus didn't exist but instead pretend he does. Unless, of course, you misunderstand what he is saying and believe he was saying that you were forced into believing it by your parents (which technically, you can fight all you want, is true anyway), but that isn't what he was saying.

Originally Posted by Sandform

You misunderstand what he is saying. You actually believe christ exists. Whatever reasoning faculties you have have led you to that conclusion. There is a difference between agreeing and choosing.

He wasn't saying you are "forced" to believe, though technically I think you were, he was saying your reasoning faculties which lead you to believe a thing have nothing to do with choice, but instead with what you agree constitutes enough evidence or proof. You can no more choose to believe that your hair color is naturally blonde, than you could choose to believe that it is naturally green. You could no more choose christ exists over not exists.

In honesty if you are "choosing" to believe, then you aren't actually believing. When you believe something that means that there is nothing, short of new evidence, that could lead you to think that it is otherwise. If your belief is a choice then that means you are capable of choosing that he doesn't exist. This means that the evidence, in your eyes, must be so severely lacking that you actually know jesus didn't exist but instead pretend he does. Unless, of course, you misunderstand what he is saying and believe he was saying that you were forced into believing it by your parents (which technically, you can fight all you want, is true anyway), but that isn't what he was saying.

Yes. Very well put.


Avalon, I am going to give you one of my old challenges. Believe for one day that you are a billionaire movie star. Then tell us what it was like. Will you do that?

My favourite examples are:

For 10 seconds absolutely believe there is no God

Walk off a ledge (any height) and absolutely completely believe you will defy gravity.


It can't be done.

believe in god and all, and when someone decides to say god doesn't exist it's okay cause this is what wil happen, either i am wrong, and there is not a god and i lived a fulfilling life, without the alcohol, and drugs , and no one gets to say i told you so cause there would be nothing after death, or i could be right and god does exist and i am saved and lived a fulfilling life and i don't get screwed. either way i will be fine. so that really should be what it comes down to.

Except it doesn't work like that. There are many other possibilities you fail to consider, for example:

There is a god, but not the one you believed in. You are punished for worshiping a false god.
There is a god and an afterlife, but the god does not care in the slightest what you believe as long as you lived a good life and are a good person
There is no god and no afterlife, and you have wasted a significant portion of your limited time, and likely at a monetary cost worshipping a non-existent being

Also I live an enjoyable life without using alcohol or drugs. Not for any moral reasons I will admit, but if you're trying to imply that people with religion never do drugs, and that everyone who doesn't believe in a religon supports their use, this would be false. It's certainly misleading and irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Or it turns out Allah exists and you go to hell for worshipping a false god your whole life.

Or Bakna'lesh, the god of intoxication, exists and punishes you for abstaining from drugs and alcohol.

Or [imagine another god] exists, etc.

very true. but well if that happens i would just say, crap, cause there is nothing more i can do. and allah (if really was god) would understand my intent in worshipping god.

Originally Posted by Sandform

The underlined text is meaningless to your point. Many irreligious people "live a fulfilling life, without the alcohol and drugs."

Meanwhile look up pascal's wager to understand the lack of logic behind the statement that either "there is nothing" or "I am rewarded." scatterbrain already tried to show you the flaw in your thought pattern of using pascal's wager.



You believe either "there would be nothing after death" or "i am saved." Those are not the only two possibilities.

hhmmm well that is interesing i will look it up. and i agree that many people live with out drugs, but i as a christia do believe that you need to accept god in order to go to heaven and you need to treat your body like a temple not let it rot away, but like i said you still need to believe in god and all.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

There is a god, but not the one you believed in. You are punished for worshiping a false god.
There is a god and an afterlife, but the god does not care in the slightest what you believe as long as you lived a good life and are a good person
There is no god and no afterlife, and you have wasted a significant portion of your limited time, and likely at a monetary cost worshipping a non-existent being

i will agree, but god is allknowing, and in the end he is the one who makes the call of wether you are saved or not. if allah was the actual god then allah would not be unfair. allah would know who had what intent. because god knows that. it's kinda like that questionn some people ask, if a man is walking toward a church and is ready to get baptized and gets hit by a truck, does he go to heaven? god is the judge on that so it is most likely a yes.

now i really do have to say that i do not intend to force anyone to become christian or to hear me "preach" so i see nothing wrong with believing in god. as for the atheists, i wont judge you because it is not my place. if you don't believe in god, then just don't, all that i really am going to do is say hey there is a god, and he loves you. choose to believe me if you want, if you don't then okay. you know?

choose to believe me if you want, if you don't then okay. you know?

It's not a matter of choosing to believe. It's that us atheists (I think I can make a generalisation here) see no reason to believe your beliefs; faith by definition is belief without a reason to believe.

there is a god, and he loves you

So you have no faith? If you know something you cannot have faith. And faith not knowledge is the center of religious beliefs.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

It's not a matter of choosing to believe. It's that us atheists (I think I can make a generalisation here) see no reason to believe your beliefs; faith by definition is belief without a reason to believe.



So you have no faith? If you know something you cannot have faith. And faith not knowledge is the center of religious beliefs.

i reeaelize that you don't that is why i said that either you do or you don;t, i mean you have that choice.
well i have faith that he loves us. and thank you for calling me and other religious people stupid. i am sorry that i don't know alot yet. i used to be christian, turned against god, said he wasn't there, and went back. i came back to him just a year ago... so excuse me for not being all knowledgeable.
but it doesn't mean that it does not have knowledge in there. there are lots of answers to your questionns, just ask the right people.

Originally Posted by aorozco

if allah was the actual god then allah would not be unfair. allah would know who had what intent.

Then, would Jesus understand your intent in worshipping Allah?

Originally Posted by aorozco

i reeaelize that you don't that is why i said that either you do or you don;t, i mean you have that choice.
well i have faith that he loves us.

If you honestly think belief is a choice, will you take me up on the challenge of believing for one day that you are a billionaire movie star? Nobody has done it yet. If you ever read my thread "Choosing to Believe" 2 + 2 = 5: The Interviews, you will see what a disaster it is when people try to believe things that don't make sense to them. It might be the most ridiculous thread on this site. I might even say it belongs in Senseless Banter.

Will you take me up on the challenge?

thank you for calling me and other religious people stupid

Um, I didn't?

This was a very sad and sobering letter I had to send but I think it gives this thread a personal twist to which I would think most people of faith could absorb.

Am I an atheist? Well no, I'm an agnostic. To a christian it probably all sounds the same. From my vantage point it is quite different. I have had a considerable amount of empirical reason to come to the conclusion I have. Much Like I'm sure you have had too....your journey. Your journey to your own conclusion. I have had lenghty discussions for and against religion. Some prosperous, some not. Most seem to turn out destructive, in a manner of speaking.

I think a good parallel we can draw from this. Faith, much like love cannot be manifested when it is not there, When it is not felt.

I cannot make myself believe in a God anymore than I can make myself love you. Any God or Anyone at this point in my journey.

Brutal honesty is not a curse. It just often hurts.

Originally Posted by Howie

This was a very sad and sobering letter I had to send but I think it gives this thread a personal twist to which I would think most people of faith could absorb.

Am I an atheist? Well no, I'm an agnostic. To a christian it probably all sounds the same. From my vantage point it is quite different. I have had a considerable amount of empirical reason to come to the conclusion I have. Much Like I'm sure you have had too....your journey. Your journey to your own conclusion. I have had lenghty discussions for and against religion. Some prosperous, some not. Most seem to turn out destructive, in a manner of speaking.

I think a good parallel we can draw from this. Faith, much like love cannot be manifested when it is not there, When it is not felt.

I cannot make myself believe in a God anymore than I can make myself love you. Any God or Anyone at this point in my journey.

Brutal honesty is not a curse. It just often hurts.

Just one comment really, too...your journey. Was "your journey" meant to be a part of that sentence, and if so do you think you are shakes beer? Plays on the word too and to, ah hah ha! Bet you didn't think we would see that. I didn't sleep last night so sue me.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Just one comment really, too...your journey. Was "your journey" meant to be a part of that sentence, and if so do you think you are shakes beer? Plays on the word too and to, ah hah ha! Bet you didn't think we would see that. I didn't sleep last night so sue me.

I don't understand?

Originally Posted by Howie

I don't understand?

Much Like I'm sure you have had too....your journey.

If your sentence ended at

Much Like I'm sure you have had too.

It makes sense.

If your sentence ended at

Much Like I'm sure you have had too....your journey.

then you used the word too wrong...I think, hmm I need an english teacher to consult, not consort, with.

If it was an intentional double meaning, too and to, then you mimic shakey mc beer man by taking liberties with the English language to make a weird point.

Otherwise when you were using the homophone of lonelyest number since the number one it would have just been plain old to.

Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

You know, I'm a fellow christian so I hate to say this but I feel I must. It sounds like you've taken all the warm and fuzzy parts of the faith, decided to believe in those and ignored any part that might compell you to higher standards such as Sin or hell. It seems like you've looked at all the scary parts and said, "I can do whatever I want, they don't exsist." Your definition of God sounds like someone on to many antideppresents with no real feeling or thought.

Thats all I felt like saying, I apologize if I have offended you, this is why we have diffrent sects of the faith.

Whats wrong with that? There is no definitive proof to anything which is why its called faith and not fact. I say, belive in whatever makes you happy to belive, even if it makes no sense. If religion is all lies then we are all going to the same place anyway, why waste what "could be" the only time we have in existence by terrorising ourselves and others with the idea of "hell" and "satan" I guess many people use the logic of," what if im following the wrong religion am i buying myself a first class ticket to hell every time i pray?" so following a sugarcoated version of said religion seems like a slightly safer bet. Who the hell knows whats out there( or not out there) living beings probably never will, shouldnt we save time and focus on the life we have before chasing after a possibly imaginary afterlife?

*waits for mass insults and "what a dumb bint" comments to be thrown her way*

Originally Posted by Avalon Jr.

no, not nessecarily, i think that the whole "loving" part, is just that, loving.
i dont think i belive in hell, or the devil, satan, whatever, im not even sure the end of human kind will ever happen.
as for punishment besides hell, nope.

You sound like someone who is not Christian. Or you give hope for what Christianity is nationally viewed as.. Soon as they get rid of the Bible they'll be well off

Originally Posted by Sandform

Much Like I'm sure you have had too....your journey.

If your sentence ended at

Much Like I'm sure you have had too.

It makes sense.

If your sentence ended at

Much Like I'm sure you have had too....your journey.

then you used the word too wrong...I think, hmm I need an english teacher to consult, not consort, with.
if it was an intentional double meaning, too and to, then you mimic shakey mc beer man by taking liberties with the English language to make a weird point.

Otherwise when you were using the homophone of lonelyest number since the number one it would have just been plain old to.

What I had meant was she too, in addition to me had made her own journey to come to the conclusions she has.
sorry

The concept of an invisible gigantic man in the sky with magic powers seems pretty imaginative to me bro.

Well yeah...

I was coming at it from the,

I wonder how I have come to exist in this world which provides all of the things I need? I know! Maybe some giant guy in the sky who loves me who I can't see because he's invisible made it for me! That explains absolutely everything...

angle.

Originally Posted by Avalon Jr.

alright, here goes:
nothing wrong with gay people, theyre cool.
i dont believe in the story of adam and eve, i think it was some kind of synonym, or simply just a story that the bible tells.
im not sure hell exists, i wish i knew, but i dont think there is any way of finding out besides asking god.
i believe jesus died for our sins, yes, and that he existed, and that he either did many miracles, or they were stories told by the bible so we could learn from them.
im not sure how to define free will, i dont really think we have free will right now, i think theres a much higher stage than this, obviously referring to heaven, where we can do anything, more then any mind on earth can comprehend.
all loving, knowing, powerful god? yup!

anything else?

So basically, you are a christian who doesn't necessarily believe anything that your religion preaches, except for; "Jesus, m'kay."

Originally Posted by Photolysis

What's more moral, a person who acts kindly because he believes it's the right thing to do, or a person who acts that way out of fear?

Both persons "do" what they believe is the good and right choice to do.

I think you mean: "Which demonstrates more moral awareness? A kindly act or a selfish act?"

Originally Posted by Photolysis

There is a god, but not the one you believed in. You are punished for worshiping a false god.

Yes, you are "punished", so to speak, by believing in a false God. However, the error is to think that the Real God "out there" is punishing you. Actually, the Kingdom Of God is within everyone of us, and all suffering arises from ignorance. Hence we are punished by ourselves (our egotistic judgments, arrogance and selfishness).

Originally Posted by Photolysis

faith by definition is belief without a reason to believe.

No, that is merely what it may look like.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

So you have no faith? If you know something you cannot have faith. And faith not knowledge is the center of religious beliefs.

Faith allows for spiritual understanding to unfold.

Originally Posted by Xei

The concept of God represents a severe lack of imagination.

Just like the species of flying fish represent a "severe" breakthrough in marine engineering?

Originally Posted by ClassyElf

The concept of an invisible gigantic man in the sky with magic powers seems pretty imaginative to me bro.

It is pretty imaginative, considering how assuming and distorted such a view is. Its fundamental assumption is generally brought about by misinterpreting anthropomorphic scriptures (about God, which is impersonal).

Scriptures sometimes hold a dogmatic image, when the projections of the ego and personifications can't be told apart from the essential meaning and motivation of the stories. Remember that, in Christian scriptures for example, "dogma", as a generalization, was introduced by the Church, not by Jesus. Consider also the limitations of communication and expression in the given sociocultural context.

Originally Posted by Xei

I was coming at it from the,

I wonder how I have come to exist in this world which provides all of the things I need? I know! Maybe some giant guy in the sky who loves me who I can't see because he's invisible made it for me! That explains absolutely everything...

angle.

That "angle" is actually quite arbitrary. Do you seriously think the founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, had taught this, let alone asserted it?

I have a question that I've always wondered, so here it goes - What is the point of prayer? Surely your god already knows what you are going to pray for beforehand - and therefore has already decided on his course of action. Is it not absurd to think that "you" an insignificant human being can persuade the omnipotent, omniscient being - your god - to change his mind? If it is not absurd, please tell me why.

Oh ye. And if you believe that "god" created the universe - what was the point of creating a universe so massive for such a small and insignificant species like humans? Isn't that kind of inefficient for such an efficient, all powerful being that does not make mistakes?

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

I have a question that I've always wondered, so here it goes - What is the point of prayer? Surely your god already knows what you are going to pray for beforehand - and therefore has already decided on his course of action. Is it not absurd to think that "you" an insignificant human being can persuade the omnipotent, omniscient being - your god - to change his mind? If it is not absurd, please tell me why.

First of all, we are not insignificant. We're divine, however the great majority of us are unaware.

If we are to pray, it is a symbol of intention for the highest good. It is not out of some egotistical gain or selfishness. It comes with faith that there is something greater than your awareness waiting to be "discovered". Prayer can help align one with the intentions and faith.

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

Oh ye. And if you believe that "god" created the universe - what was the point of creating a universe so massive for such a small and insignificant species like humans? Isn't that kind of inefficient for such an efficient, all powerful being that does not make mistakes?

These kind of questions are hard to answer, mainly because they're not really asking anything specific. They're mixed with misinterpretations and relative ego-views. Like: "Why do leaves grow off trees? Aren't trees big enough and able to live without them? What's the point of them growing if they just fall off?"

Originally Posted by really

if we are to pray, it is a symbol of intention for the highest good. It is not out of some egotistical gain or selfishness. It comes with faith that there is something greater than your awareness waiting to be "discovered". Prayer can help align one with the intentions and faith.

I have not heard too many prayers that do not ask god for something. I feel most people need something. Even if it is guidance, it is for ones own best interest.

Comparing a tree with an Omnipotent god is not that great of an analogy.
fyi, the shedding of leaves plays an important role in the cycle and life of a tree.

Originally Posted by Howie

I have not heard too many prayers that do not ask god for something. I feel most people need something. Even if it is guidance, it is for ones own best interest.

Comparing a tree with an Omnipotent god is not that great of an analogy.
fyi, the shedding of leaves plays an important role in the cycle and life of a tree.

Quiet, you. It was an evergreen. LOL

"First of all, we are not insignificant. We're divine, however the great majority of us are unaware." - We're divine? Says who? God? Well if you look back in history you would quickly find out that god is the number one cause of death. Millions upon millions of murders of innocent men, women and children. All because either a) they did not believe in a god - or b) they simply did not believe in the same god. What the hell is so divine about that? What is so "sacred" of human beings? It boils down to its something we MADE UP to make us feel NOBLE. Make us feel important. You know why? Because we're living. Living, thinking beings have a STRONG desire to promote the "divine" or "sacred" nature of life. It's a COMPLETE biased point of view. The sanctity and divinity of life is a loaddddd of crap. It's something we made up.

"If we are to pray, it is a symbol of intention for the highest good. It is not out of some egotistical gain or selfishness. It comes with faith that there is something greater than your awareness waiting to be "discovered". Prayer can help align one with the intentions and faith.: - So you're telling me christians and other religions that pray never pray for self-gain? I'm definitely going to have to raise the bullshit flag on that one again. That is the whole meaning of prayer in the first place! You are either asking, or demanding in some peoples cases, SOME sort of change. Some sort of change that would be in the best interest of YOU. If it wasn't of interest to YOU, you wouldn't be praying for it! Use your head once in a while bud, it's good for you.

"These kind of questions are hard to answer, mainly because they're not really asking anything specific. They're mixed with misinterpretations and relative ego-views. Like: "Why do leaves grow off trees? Aren't trees big enough and able to live without them? What's the point of them growing if they just fall off?" - Is this a serious answer o.O? That is as specific as question get. You are just trying to ration your way out of answering a good, solid, logical question by throwing all that other bullshit in with it. It's a very simple question. If you did not understand it fully - I'll re-word it. If gods plan was to create humans in his image and a habitat for humans to live in - what was the point in adding in all the other trillions and trillions of light years of space with billions of other star systems possibly capable of holding OTHER life, that was never mentioned in the bible? What was the point of that? Doesn't it seem like..... A WASTE!? It's a very simple question dude.

By the way - I can tell you EXACTLY why leaves grow on trees and fall off according to the seasons. That was an extremely weak analogy to a very logical question I asked. Leaves have a very specific role in the life of a tree. If you want to know why - feel free to ask and I'll clarify ALL of your leaf-mystery questions.

Originally Posted by Omicron

AIGHT LISTEN UP U FUKKIN FAGGOT IF UR MAKIN A POSITIVE STATEMENT ABOUT THE NATURAL WORLD, U CANT JUST THROW THAT SHIT OUT TO MAKE A LEGITIMAT ECLAIM FOR A DESCRIPTIVE MODEL OF SOME PROCE$$ U NEED TO FIRST CONFIRM THAT SHITS FALSIABLE THEN U GOTTA COME UP WIT A REPRODUCABLE TEST OF A SAMPLE OF EVENTS WHICH COULD POTENTIALLY FALSIFY IT SIT THE FUCK BACK DOWN U AINT THRU YET THEN U GOTTA RUN THE TEST THEN U SHULD PUBLISH THE LOT IN A PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL ON THE SUBJECT SO EVRY1 ELSE CAN CONFIRM THE RESULTS FOR THEYSELVES THEN IF U STILL INTERESTED IN DA SUBJECT U CAN CONTINUE 2 CREATE EXPERIMENTS TO VERIFI THE MODEL AND IF YOU MEET ANY RESULTS WHICH DISPROVE IT U CAN REFINE THE MODEL TO ENCOMPASS UR NEW OBSERVATIONS

woah!!!! seriously, you are rude. would you answer a question pleas? do you think that there is life out in the ocean like really deep down, out of the range of human intervention?