Using Caffeine as a Trigger

**Xanous** · 02-27-2013 11:30 PM

Purpose Looking for participants.

I am looking for participants to join my on going study and try to determine the causes of success and failure. I have to say that if you are sensitive to caffeine or you don't regularly ingest caffeine during the day then you should consider another form of LDS.I have had several successes using a small dose of caffeine as a lucid trigger. When I started in Dec. of last year I recored about 10 successes with WBTB and a few sips of strong coffee. Later I switched to cutting caffeine pills to get a more accurate record of caffeine amounts. Eventually my success rate dropped significantly. The only reason I could think of was that I wore myself out as I began to lose sleep every night. The biggest issue with using caffeine as a trigger is that I would often experience some insomnia about 1 - 1.5 hours after the dose. I began to lower my dose to 50-100MG Caffeine and that seems to significantly reduce it. I will continue trials and post successes and failures here. I encourage anyone interested to do the same.

But please, be smart and use caution. Listen to your body.

Method

WBTB

Usually after 4 - 5 hours of sleep do a WBTB. Due to possible insomnia I suggest taking your dose 2 hours before your desired wake time. A longer WBTB is preferred so if I want to do a 30 minute WBTB I get up 2.5 hours before my wake time. At 2 hours before my wake time I take a dose of caffeine and promptly go back to bed and do a quick induction technique.

My preferred techniques include, SSILD, MILD and possibly WILD. WILD is one I haven't tested as much but with a low enough dose I can see the mild wakefulness being useful.

Currently I only test caffeine probably once or twice per week. Anything beyond that is tiring and unhealthy, in my experience. As you'll notice, I included 100-200MG B6 with some of my caffeine doses. While I think it increases vividness I don't feel that it is an actual trigger, at least for me. Really, this is more about caffeine and not B6. I occasionally included some melatonin to combat insomnia but I am trying to get away from that as it interferes with REM.

Also, since REM is ideal for lucid dreams and the time to peak plasma is about 1 hour it would be ideal to actually be in REM around that time. According to my trials, success is highly dependent on this. Most of my LD's from caffeine have ended around 1 - 1.5 hours. I am not saying this is completely necessary as I haven't fully explored caffeine WILD but I think it would be preferred. Too a lot if it depends on tolerance and dosage. That's something for the individual to play around with.

Technical Data

Time to Peek Plasma - (the time it takes to reach highest levels) approx. 1 hour
Elimination Half-Life - (the time required for the body to eliminate one-half of the total amount of caffeine) – 5 - 6 hours but can vary greatly

I could cut and paste effects and why or how it works but its best to just go to Wikipedia - Caffeine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I will probably add just the important information along with my own thoughts later.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Thomas Yuschak's Caffeine Research
Thomas Yuschak (well-known for his work in Lucid Dreaming Supplements and the author of "Advanced Lucid Dreaming") was doing some research into how caffeine could be used as a lucid aid. The focus here was on combining caffeine with a classic galantamine + choline trigger in order to increase its effectiveness. This could be a nice resource for this thread.

http://lucidconsciousness.com/wp-con...cid-Dreams.pdf

**Alucinor XIII** · 02-28-2013 03:05 AM

I'm very interested to see how this goes. As you know Xan, my first ever WILD was due to waking up and drinking a half-a-cup of coffee.

I may join in exclusively on weekends/days off. I think it may be worth clarifying NOT to use any coffee drinks like Monster or the Starbucks canned "doubleshot" things. They have a lot of Vitamin B6 and B12, as well as other vitamins and guarana, etc. Same goes for the 5 hour energy drinks. The massive amounts of B vitamins will surely skew some results. =]

**Xanous** · 02-28-2013 04:13 AM

Yeah I forgot about that! I would really love to see results other than my own. Thanks for playing along!

That's a very good point about energy drinks. I had not considered that since I never drink the stuff any more. And you're right, I really don't want it to be about B vitamins or any other substance. We should also point out that anything with sugar could carry some effects as well. So we'll ban anything with sugar or no vitamins or any other additives. It should be black coffee, unsweetened teas without cream, or caffeine pills. I think Excedrin might be OK. I read in another forum someone was using that since it had something like 65MG caffeine. The acetaminophen should be harmless but I'd rather not use it every time.

Also, I should note that there is a somewhat popular method involving caffeine withdrawals then a WBTB dose. I found this to be completely unnecessary and the one time I tried it I was miserable and failed my caffeine attempt that night anyway. With that said, perhaps we shouldn't discount it completely. I'd be open to trying it again.

**CanisLucidus** · 02-28-2013 04:36 AM

Sounds great, Xanous! I'm definitely down for trying some caffeine experiments again. I'm going to target one caffeine trial per week.

Successful Trial
I had one majorly successful trial in the past where I had 2 lucid dreams in one night using caffeine. Here are the dreams:

Dream #1 - Pool Care in the Temple of Zeus - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Dream #2 - Crowbar Clint - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Here are the precise steps that I followed to get 2 LDs in one night. Admittedly, they are ugly.

1. Fall asleep thinking about going through a portal or white door.
2. WBTB after 3 hours. This natural waking was a little early, so I probably would have passed it up in favor of a later one if I hadn't been so excited.
3. Stay awake for ~30 minutes. Drink 2 cups (16 fl. oz.) of green tea (est. 40mg caffeine.) Take 0.75mg of melatonin.
4. Perform 5 cycles of SSILD. Try to fall asleep ASAP. Fail after 30 minutes.
5. Realize I am hopelessly wired from the caffeine. Take additional 0.75mg melatonin, for a total of 1.5 mg.
6. 3 cycles SSILD, then sleep. (Although not immediately.)
7. Hit LD #1. Wake up, fail DEILD. Commit dream to memory. 3 cycles SSILD, back to sleep. Hit LD #2.

Thomas Yuschak's Caffeine Research
Thomas Yuschak (well-known for his work in Lucid Dreaming Supplements and the author of "Advanced Lucid Dreaming") was doing some research into how caffeine could be used as a lucid aid. The focus here was on combining caffeine with a classic galantamine + choline trigger in order to increase its effectiveness. This could be a nice resource for this thread.

http://lucidconsciousness.com/wp-con...cid-Dreams.pdf

I'll be watching this thread closely. I think that there's a lot to learn about the best way to use caffeine! Lots of variables to play with here.

**TwoCrystalCups** · 02-28-2013 04:46 AM

I drink everyday 3-4 cups of coffee, coffee is known for recovery of memory. Also i realize i start to recall dreams after a cup of coffee when i wake.
Shall we drink it before bed or only during the day?

**Xanous** · 02-28-2013 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by hathor28

I drink everyday 3-4 cups of coffee, coffee is known for recovery of memory. Also i realize i start to recall dreams after a cup of coffee when i wake.
Shall we drink it before bed or only during the day?

I think don't theres any need to change your daily caffeine consumption for now. I don't know if this is what you meant or not but, WBTB would be best rather than before bed at the first of night.

Also, I forgot to mention that it seems that since I usually wake within 1-1.5 hours it's really ideal to enter REM with in that time frame. So getting back to sleep quickly would be ideal. If you are doing WILD perhaps a really low dose or try catching the back side of it as it begins to wear off a bit. I see the value of hitting the target hour time and then waiting out any insomnia with a WILD attempt. Sort of like getting a second chance.

@CanisLucidus: Thanks for the extra info!

**TwoCrystalCups** · 02-28-2013 05:29 AM

I did wbtb but not drinking coffee in between lol that would not help me sleep

**Xanous** · 02-28-2013 01:44 PM

The idea is that a really small amount of caffeine during WBTB will trigger lucidity when you go back to sleep.

**Xanous** · 03-05-2013 12:52 AM

Night of March 3, 2013
Dose: 50MG
Supporting Supplements: None
Bedtime: 10:30PM
WBTB wake time: 3:30AM
Dose Time: 3:50AM
Technique: MILD
Lucid: No

I took 50MG Caffeine and went back to sleep quickly. I was really tired and I didn't do MILD very well.

At 4:54AM I recorded a dream about having hermit crabs in our house and trying to get rid of them. I put them in a clear cylinder that resembled snail shells at the grocery store. Then my daughter went to school but the school was a part of our house. She took a doll with her.

I felt slight wakefulness and it took a few minutes to get back to sleep but it wasn't any trouble. I did better MILD cycles this time.

At 6:00AM the alarm woke me and I recorded a very vivid dream about doing some plumbing work in a large basement. I was trying to de-solder some pipe joints when the boss wasn't looking. I felt like I screwed up and didn't want to look stupid. Some attractive DC woman walked by and said, "Hey handsome, I going to be at Miller's Bar & Grill tonight if you wanna going me..." She had a 1920's gangster woman way of talking and I thought she must be slightly mentally ill. To be polite and humor her I said, "Yeah, I guess so." I trying to be as noncommittal as possible but didn't want to give a flat refusal. I thought she had left when I went back to work but then she come back and tried to shake my hand. She said something like, "I said HELLO, can you answer me?" I shake her hand and see that she had impossibly short fingers. I am a little grossed out. Then the alarm goes off and I feel myself get sucked out of the dream.

Then I hit snooze and tried to DEILD. I visualized the TARDIS floating in space. This time I didn't remember much. I remember seeing the Doctor but it was like watching TV.

It seems like the dose was more effective for the second dream than the first. I am not sure why that would be. I didn't have a lucid but I enjoyed the dreams. They were odd and interesting.

I think next time I will go for 75ish MG. I am also considering supporting supplements like menthol, GPC, B6 but I am afraid it will ruin the test results as those supplement can be triggers for some alone. Also I wonder if REM suppressants like 5HTP or a high dose of melatonin would be beneficial. What do you guys think? Would that be adding too much to the mix?

**~~Alyzarin~~** · 03-08-2013 07:57 PM

This seems like a pretty good idea for those who aren't too sensitive to it. I'll unfortunately be sitting this one out for that reason, but I'm interested to see the results!

Originally Posted by Xanous

Also I wonder if REM suppressants like 5HTP or a high dose of melatonin would be beneficial. What do you guys think? Would that be adding too much to the mix?

I assume you mean taking them when you originally go to bed? That could be interesting....

I've done some research on REM rebound and they found a link between it and cannabinoid CB1 receptors in the hippocampus. Those receptors are also known to induce REM at only certain times of the day, with the best time for it presumably being still technically during the night but after a few REM cycles have already passed (in other words, a WBTB?), and they have hallucinogenic effects which likely play an important role in the generation of dreams. Adenosine A1 receptors, which caffeine inhibits, directly oppose the effects of hippocampal CB1 receptors. That means that caffeine should allow endocannabinoids to produce their dream-related effects more strongly when taking at the right time. This is of course in addition to increase the release of acetylcholine, which induces the synthesis and release of endocannabinoids there. So I would be willing to bet that effectively combining it with REM rebound could produce some nice results.

**Xanous** · 03-08-2013 10:10 PM

Yes, I mean prebed suppressants. Thats very helpful and interesting info there. Thanks. I may give it a shot on my next trail.

Have you put any thought into how effective alcohol is as a REM suppressants compared to 5HTP and melatonin?

**~~Alyzarin~~** · 03-08-2013 10:49 PM

No problem.

Well, I can tell you from experience that it is effective lol. But also easy to overdo, at least if you drink like I do. But I usually get lucid, have some really trippy dream(s), or have hypnopompia after I drink. Sometimes to the point of fully rendered people having conversations with me briefly when I wake up on that last one, only to vanish when I close my eyes. That's gotta count for something.... Melatonin is actually GABAergic at least in some respect, so I'm guessing that alcohol is doing something similar but much more potently. However, just because it's effective doesn't necessarily mean it's preferable. I certainly wouldn't suggest alcohol to anyone as a lucid aid.

**Xanous** · 03-09-2013 12:17 AM

Heehee. I've gotten some pretty good lucids after a night of mild drinking. But you are right about it not being a preferred lucid aid and it is easy to over do it. I try not to talk about it too much on here but I'm just thinking if I am going to drink anyway, then I may as well plan for it being a factor.

**Xanous** · 03-09-2013 04:21 PM

Night of March 8, 2013
Dose: 125isMG (I couldn't cut the pill straight

I wanted 100MG)
Supporting Supplements: All Prebed: 15MG Melatonin, 32oz light beer, 300MG B6
Bedtime: 10:45PM
WBTB wake time: 3:00AM
Dose Time: 3:00AM
Technique: MILD
Lucid: No

I have an extremely vivid visual dream about an approaching storm. I am trying to park my car but the breaks and transmission wont cooperate. The other cars keep getting in the way. It takes a long time to finally get parked. I see the approaching storm. I wanted to watch lightning so I waited. I can't hear anything because my wife is next to my talking really loud and the radio is turned up. I sort of rudely tell her to be quite and listen. This brilliant ball of lightning appears in the sky and dances around all crazy. It turns into may symbols and geometric shapes. The light is almost blinding but I feel no pain in my eyes. I get extremely excited and try to get the DCs standing around to look but they seem disinterested. Then, the lighting turns into an advertisement. It clearly makes the word SKECHERS then SYNERGY. I lose my excitement as I soon realize its just a high tech holographic billboard. I say to myself, "That's a little disappointing but still really cool." I wake up. I have been asleep 60min.

BTW, I Googled "skechers synergy" and found out there is a womens training shoe by that name.

My recall seems to get a huge boost after this and I record several dreams that I'll post to my DJ soon.

EDIT: It really seems like I have had better luck with B6/Caffeine combo. I didn't want this to be about B6 but maybe the two together is ideal. Perhaps there is something important to consider here?

Also what effect does natural caffeine from coffee have that gave me more consistent results in the beginning? Is there something else in coffee or is it a mental association of coffee and alertness? Perhaps my next trial I'll use actual coffee with B6.

**~~Alyzarin~~** · 03-09-2013 04:42 PM

Wow... that was awesome.

Originally Posted by Xanous

Also what effect does natural caffeine from coffee have that gave me more consistent results in the begining? Is there something else in coffee or is it a mental association of coffee and alertness? Perhaps my next trial I'll use actual coffee with B6.

There is nothing different about the caffeine. However, coffee also contains harman and norharman. Each of these are MAO inhibitors, and therefore increase levels of monoamines, especially serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, and trace amines like tryptamine and phenethylamine. Harman is also an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor like galantamine, and there is possibly at least one unidentified muscarinic acetylcholine agonist (direct or indirect, I'm not sure) in there as well. And that's in addition to other things. When you drink coffee, you're getting much more than just caffeine.

**Xanous** · 03-09-2013 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

Wow... that was awesome.

There is nothing different about the caffeine. However, coffee also contains harman and norharman. Each of these are MAO inhibitors, and therefore increase levels of monoamines, especially serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, and trace amines like tryptamine and phenethylamine. Harman is also an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor like galantamine, and there is possibly at least one unidentified muscarinic acetylcholine agonist (direct or indirect, I'm not sure) in there as well. And that's in addition to other things. When you drink coffee, you're getting much more than just caffeine.

Thanks

Sometimes I love my NLDs just as much as my LDs!

Right, as suspected. Based on what you said, it would seem that coffee would be preferred over the pill. Also, I think I shrugged this off a little to much, I need to consider tolerance levels as I am a daily coffee drinker. I seem to recall having a brief reduction in coffee consumption prior to my initial trials. I dug this up from my intro class workbook date 12-01-2012.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Cool experiment with the caffeine! This probably worked so well because you've spent quite a lot of time in caffeine withdrawal. I feel like I heard about a strategy like this at some point in the past... something about habitual coffee drinkers stopping for a while, then suddenly reintroducing it...? If I run across it again I'll let you know.

Originally Posted by Xanous

I agree with all you said. And I have read a thread about caffeine withdraw inducing lucid dreams. I'm not sure it was so much withdraw because I only went a few days totally without but I did cut back so maybe.

I think I'll begin to cut way back to 1-2 cup in the morning and see if this makes any difference.

**~~Alyzarin~~** · 03-09-2013 05:47 PM

Good luck with that then.

That probably would change it, caffeine tolerance can make quite a difference. Daily caffeine intake actually is probably lowering your chances of getting lucid. Obviously you still have a better chance when you take the caffeine for getting lucid than when you don't, but the chances will still be lower overall. That CB1-A1 relationship I describe becomes effected with chronic use, and those CB1 receptors are going to be losing some of their effects necessary for REM and dreaming due to upregulation of A1.

**Xanous** · 03-09-2013 06:34 PM

I have been told this before but with out any real reason as to why. Do you really think daily caffeine reduces the chance of getting lucid or is that just based on data? Although most of my lucids seem brief; I seem to have plenty lately. If caffeine does in fact hinder lucidity overall then I wonder the effect it will have by quitting altogether save for a weekly caffeine wbtb. Though I love coffee, it may be worth the effort.

**~~Alyzarin~~** · 03-09-2013 06:49 PM

I do think that, since A1 receptors directly inhibit CB1 receptors in the hippocampus, and upregulation of A1 means more of the receptor. Now if you want a deeper explanation than that... I don't think you're going to get one lol. I don't think they know that much about why those CB1 receptors work the way they do yet, but I do believe that they're critical in sleep. I've actually read studies showing that anandamide, one of the big endocannabinoids, induces REM chronically without any tolerance or withdrawal, and that definitely seems to fit with dreaming to me.

You may be able to get lucid frequently even with drinking caffeine every day, but... well, consider the fact that I can get lucid frequently with smoking weed every day. That's a pretty well-known REM destroyer. Just because you're able to overcome your self-inflicted handicap doesn't mean you wouldn't do even better without it. I'm willing to bet that it would be even easier for you to become lucid if you cut out that caffeine consumption.

**Xanous** · 03-09-2013 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

Just because you're able to overcome your self-inflicted handicap doesn't mean you wouldn't do even better without it. I'm willing to bet that it would be even easier for you to become lucid if you cut out that caffeine consumption.

Well, it's worth a shot. For science!

**~~Alyzarin~~** · 03-09-2013 06:55 PM

Good luck!

**CanisLucidus** · 03-10-2013 02:32 PM

Night of March 9, 2013
Dose: 2 bags green tea
Supporting Supplements: All Prebed: 6 mg melatonin, one of Wife's Oreo-stuffed chocolate chip cookies

Bedtime: 11:00PM
WBTB wake time: 4:00AM (Note! Spring forward time change!)
Dose Time: 4:25AM
Technique: MILD
Lucid: No, but close!

I got lots of fun, vivid dreams from this experiment, although no lucids. My last NLD was me observing as Joshua Jackson from "Fringe" went through a long, introspective lucid dream where he concluded that the only thing he had in his empty life was video games. It's disturbing that this didn't get me lucid, but I still like having a close call.

Apart from that, lots of dreams with action, combat, and victory. All were happy rather than gritty. Even the one zombie apocalypse dream was light-hearted! Overall a great night of dreaming and I got nearly 8 hours of sleep. (Very unusual for me.)

I'm also sick w/ a sore throat right now, which didn't do me any favors. I got little sleep the night before, so there's some possible REM rebound going on. Anyway, the fact that I got through the WBTB so easily tells me that I can raise to 3 (or more) bags of green tea next time.

**Xanous** · 03-10-2013 03:21 PM

Very cool action dreams! Did you feel your recall was higher than normal? I've noticed that on the time that I'm able to beat insomnia.

**CanisLucidus** · 03-10-2013 05:19 PM

Thanks! I did feel like recall was nice and high. I only wrote down keywords for one dream but when I woke up I remembered at least 6 and possibly 7 dreams. For me, that's really high. Granted, I was really trying to remember them between dreams but that's up there.

I think that if I wasn't fighting this illness I'd have had a great shot at the LD. I think that next caffeine night I'll try 3 tea bags and see how that goes! (Should be, what 60-75 mg caffeine?)

**Xanous** · 03-10-2013 07:27 PM

Very cool on recall! I think the 50-100 mg range is the most effective. I'm excited to see how it goes for you.

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