Thread: Reality As You Know It Does Not Exist

Originally Posted by Lemonsoul

Am I making any sense to anyone and is this what the topic was all about.

This is absolutely what the initial argument is about. Thank you. And, just to go across the aisles, I will say that:

My position is not one that says the "materialistic" view of a physical universe is inherently wrong. It is one that states that we must first look at our own parameters of perceptions as just that: perception. And we can't just automatically assume that what we see as the universe is the way it actually is.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Wow, this will be long

Don't change the topic. You challenged me to explain why quantum entanglement happens according to my view. I stated what I think happens. Now you come with this.

I find it amazing that you fixed your fingers to type this, knowing that you didn't even address why quantum entanglement happens. All you said is that "just because we can't explain it, doesn't mean it doesn't have a reason." You didn't even address entanglement, itself. If you did, please post where you did.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Lol, do you really think you're making sense with this? Do you think I would have said I didn't understand the video?

I'm sorry...is this your way of saying you wouldn't have said you didn't understand the video, if you didn't understand it? LOL. That's pretty telling, in itself.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I understood it better than you do

Whoa-hoa...There goes that (unfounded, at best) arrogance again.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

As I said from the beginning, you are not going to agree with me until you get where I am.

And again.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

The problem with this convo is that it's been getting too abstract. I said I consider the video believer bullshit and that I have my own opinion about the topic, but that I did once agree with the point raised on the video way behind.

Yeah. I gathered that from what you said. Now I'm asking you to get away from the rhetoric and actually get into why the video is wrong. All you've done is take a concept of 'I don't think the video is right' and not actually explain - in a scientific context - why the video is wrong. I'm still waiting on that.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Nah, don't try to assume what I think. I said something and you interpreted it wrongly. My point is that all we do and will to do is only human emotion/instinct, and that if we were reason alone, we wouldn't even question things, because there would be no will to question. Will is human condition. And that is what I consider my knowledge, and just saying this will never get you to understand what it fully means. You have to experience having no will at all in order to understand. I never said that the physical is absolute. I just said that it's ridiculous to try to find a meaning for life based on what we don't yet understand of quantum physics.

...and I'm going to stop you right there.

I see what the disconnect is. I really do. You are basing your entire argument off of an interpretation of the video saying "there is a meaning to life." So far, I haven't seen you disputing any of the claims of the 'true nature of the universe', with any sort of substance. Your main quarrel seems to be with the "We are all one and should treat each other as such" message at the very end of the video. Let me be the first to tell you that I'm not talking about that at all. It wasn't even remotely close to my reason for posting the video. I'm talking about the video's context on the true nature of the universe vs. our perception of it. Whether what we know as the "physical world" actually exists. "Finding meaning in life" has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've said since we started talking.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Hahah, I surely don't understand it as much as the goddamn scientists who spend their lives researching it, but I surely understand enough of it not to go and say bullshit about something I don't understand. The people on the video are even lower than that, trying to talk about something they have no idea of whatsoever.

You have absolutely nothing to substantiate that the people in the video (and again, I'm talking about my initial point of the true, "physical" nature of the universe - not the "treat each other as one" message) don't know what they're talking about. If you actually do, I'm still waiting on it.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Particle physics won't give you insight your you reason for existing. That's what I'm trying to say when I say not to use quantum theory in philosophical arguments.

This, again, tells me that you don't really understand what I'm getting at. I haven't said a single thing about "reason for existing" or "philosophy." (If that was the point of the video, I would have put it in the Philosophy forum.) When I mention David Bohm and his Implicate/Explicate Order, I'm not talking philosophy. I'm talking physics. This entire time, you've been talking about something that I wasn't talking about, and not only in the sense that Lemonsoul meant about our understanding. You haven't done or said one thing to dispute the physicality problem expressed in the video. You're talking about the philosophical aspect only, which has absolutely nothing to do with the argument I'm proposing, or my reason for posting the video.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Lol you completely misunderstood me. What "benefits you the most" isn't nearly the same as "the most logical", as I gave a in-depth example of what logic actually is.

And I gave an in-depth example of why your interpretation of logic (as it refers to the true state of the universe) is incorrect.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Science works on that same logic. And the logic I'm using is as valid as any other, but I insist, only describing it will not make you agree with me. You need to feel what it is like to have no will, just once, for you to agree with me. We are only humans, only the product of the medium. There's nothing special to it.

Yet another misinterpretation. Please find somewhere in my text where I stated anything I'm talking about is "special" or how the possibly true, "physical" state of the universe has anything to do with will.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

You didn't say a thing in there. I said that if the premise is true, the conclusion is true, because of logic. I was actually explaining to you what logic is, since you seem not to understand it.

So if the premise that two people come out of a locked room - one of them with a stab wound to the forehead - is true, then your conclusion that one of them stabbed the other is correct? To someone who thinks one has motive to stab the other, that would be true, when, in fact, it could be a self-inflicted wound. THAT is the uncertain state of logic that I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to explain to you.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

You got my point already, stop making more fuzz about it. Whatever I had said, you'd criticise me. I just chose falsifiability over speedy generalization (same thing science does).

Just to get us back on track, I'm going to ask you again exactly what point you're trying to make. You said you choose falsifiability, fine. I do the same. But are you arguing against the physical message that "the physical world may not exist, and the world may just be a series of waves" or are you arguing that "we don't have to treat each other all as one, because: (insert reason here)? If it's the former, we need to continue to debate because we obviously haven't made compelling arguments. If it's the latter, then you're arguing something completely different than what I've been arguing since the beginning.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Haha I understood the video, but I thought that the point of it was stupid. I think I'm repeating this but whatever.

Ok. We've established that (alleged) idea.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

It's a child, people, it's definitely a child!

Very mature of you.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I've already said my point, you are the one to ignore it. Don't use quantum physics, especially an area that is so poorly known, to try to prove something in a philosophical argument - and that goes for you and the people on the video.

Once again, and this continues to make me believe you've completely missed the argument propsed, I'm not talking a philosophical argument, here. I'm talking a physical one. A physical argument about the true state of the universe. You said this video's interpretation of the true state of the universe is inherently bullshit. Yet you have failed to offer a single shred of evidence as to why.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

And now that I went back at it, I see what you completely missed. I didn't say "my misunderstanding of the video doesn't mean it's true". I said "even if I hadn't understood the video, it wouldn't mean it's true". "Proving" I didn't understand the video doesn't mean the video is right. I was just refuting to an argumentum ad ignorantiam from yours.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam implies that I said the video is right simply because you didn't prove it wrong.

I stated that there is more in the video to believe it to be correct than there is in your argument that it wasn't, to believe that it's wrong.

Bit of a difference, there, chief.

And, even with that being said:

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Doesn't mean the point of the video was correct lol

"Even if...?"

Maybe that's what you wished you would have said.

So, let's get it straight. Were you talking about the "lovey-dovey", philosophical message of "Let's all treat everyone as one!" or are you talking about the video's proposal of the true "physical" state of the universe?

They are two different concepts. I couldn't care less about the former. I'm arguing for the latter.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I find it amazing that you fixed your fingers to type this, knowing that you didn't even address why quantum entanglement happens. All you said is that "just because we can't explain it, doesn't mean it doesn't have a reason." You didn't even address entanglement, itself. If you did, please post where you did.

Don't try to say I didn't address it. I did. I'm not going to go into territory I'm not good at. But I already stated my opinion about it.

I'm sorry...is this your way of saying you wouldn't have said you didn't understand the video, if you didn't understand it? LOL. That's pretty telling, in itself.

LOL no it isn't... Stop putting words in my mouth.

Yeah. I gathered that from what you said. Now I'm asking you to get away from the rhetoric and actually get into why the video is wrong. All you've done is take a concept of 'I don't think the video is right' and not actually explain - in a scientific context - why the video is wrong. I'm still waiting on that.

Lol there's no scientifically explaining human opinion, shall you? I think it is bullshit, because it does not make any credible sense. The reason, as I stated repeatedly, is that you shouldn't take quantum theory and place it in the middle of a philosophical discussion. Any conclusions arising from that have no scientific/logical validity whatsoever.

...and I'm going to stop you right there.

I see what the disconnect is. I really do. You are basing your entire argument off of an interpretation of the video saying "there is a meaning to life." So far, I haven't seen you disputing any of the claims of the 'true nature of the universe', with any sort of substance. Your main quarrel seems to be with the "We are all one and should treat each other as such" message at the very end of the video. Let me be the first to tell you that I'm not talking about that at all. It wasn't even remotely close to my reason for posting the video. I'm talking about the video's context on the true nature of the universe vs. our perception of it. Whether what we know as the "physical world" actually exists. "Finding meaning in life" has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've said since we started talking.

Lol you got me wrong again. I never said anything about "we are one". And this is the third time you get me wrong, so that is why I friggin said that only stating my reasons wouldn't make you understand, you'd have to experience it. True nature of the universe? If you can't understand it at your current age, give up trying. I've already stated a lot like the Cavern Myth and the principle of uncertainty, to human perception. Understand whatever you want from it. But don't complain when I state I'm smarter than you.

You have absolutely nothing to substantiate that the people in the video (and again, I'm talking about my initial point of the true, "physical" nature of the universe - not the "treat each other as one" message) don't know what they're talking about. If you actually do, I'm still waiting on it.

Again, never said anything about "treat each other as one". You get me so wrong it's no even funny. I'm starting to believe you are incapable of it. I am not going to extensively refute everything they say on the video, first because I don't have the patience, second because I'm no expert, and third because I do know they know shit of what they are talking about. Much of what they say is just their own ideas, thrown in the middle of complicated scientific speech to make it sound scientific too.

This, again, tells me that you don't really understand what I'm getting at. I haven't said a single thing about "reason for existing" or "philosophy." (If that was the point of the video, I would have put it in the Philosophy forum.) When I mention David Bohm and his Implicate/Explicate Order, I'm not talking philosophy. I'm talking physics. This entire time, you've been talking about something that I wasn't talking about, and not only in the sense that Lemonsoul meant about our understanding. You haven't done or said one thing to dispute the physicality problem expressed in the video. You're talking about the philosophical aspect only, which has absolutely nothing to do with the argument I'm proposing, or my reason for posting the video.

Haha, lol, you don't even know what philosophy is. This thing we are doing right now - debating - is philosophing. It's not scientifical but it follows debate rules - philosophy.

That said, I have given billion reasons to why that video is ridiculous. Go read the Cavern Myth, and you'll understand that you can imagine any explanation to the universe if you just decide to imagine. There's nothing scientific in the views held through the video. There, another reason for you. I've mentally counted at least 7 now.

And I gave an in-depth example of why your interpretation of logic (as it refers to the true state of the universe) is incorrect.

No you didn't. If you did, try it again. That was style without substance. I explained you what logic is because you don't seems to know. Your idea of logic is ambiguous, mixed with others things, like human concepts of "good", "right", "sense", "simplicity". Logic is logic - and logic is one thing that's impartial and irrefutable. Premises are irrefutable, not logic.

Yet another misinterpretation. Please find somewhere in my text where I stated anything I'm talking about is "special" or how the possibly true, "physical" state of the universe has anything to do with will.

The will thing was my explanation. It is now taken for fact that you cannot understand my view. Thank you very much.

So if the premise that two people come out of a locked room - one of them with a stab wound to the forehead - is true, then your conclusion that one of them stabbed the other is correct? To someone who thinks one has motive to stab the other, that would be true, when, in fact, it could be a self-inflicted wound. THAT is the uncertain state of logic that I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to explain to you.

No, that is not true, and you know it. Don't put words in my mouth goddamnit. That is just not logic, it's deduction. Deduction uses logic, but isn't irrefutable as logic - deduction can very easily be wrong.

Logic would be something like the following line of thought: two people come out of a closet. One of them is injured. So, did the other person hurt them? The logical answer would be "not necessarily"

Just to get us back on track, I'm going to ask you again exactly what point you're trying to make. You said you choose falsifiability, fine. I do the same. But are you arguing against the physical message that "the physical world may not exist, and the world may just be a series of waves" or are you arguing that "we don't have to treat each other all as one, because: (insert reason here)? If it's the former, we need to continue to debate because we obviously haven't made compelling arguments. If it's the latter, then you're arguing something completely different than what I've been arguing since the beginning.

It's the first one. And just go read the Cavern Myth NAO. It's quick and clean. You'll see that the video's so-bright theory was imagined in antiquity. The law of uncertainty was made on that exact principle - and this is physics 101. The answer is we'll never be able to prove if there is an "other, material world", instead of just echoes, or shadows, or whatever you want to think of it. But if you say this proves your point, then I'm sorry but that's an irrefutable argument.

Very mature of you.

Thanks, I've been trying real hard. -.-

Once again, and this continues to make me believe you've completely missed the argument propsed, I'm not talking a philosophical argument, here. I'm talking a physical one. A physical argument about the true state of the universe. You said this video's interpretation of the true state of the universe is inherently bullshit. Yet you have failed to offer a single shred of evidence as to why.

Stop being misleading. I gave you enough reason. This discussion we're having *is* philosophy, like it or not.

Just so you don't have to ask again, my point is: don't try to use concepts from an unknown area of quantum physics to try to prove any point in a philosophical debate.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam implies that I said the video is right simply because you didn't prove it wrong.

I stated that there is more in the video to believe it to be correct than there is in your argument that it wasn't, to believe that it's wrong.

Bit of a difference, there, chief.

Don't try to mask what you said. You did do an ad ignorantiam. And now you are making a strawman.

Don't try to mask what you said:

I just said my lack of understanding the video doesn't mean the video is right, indeed. But you fail to recognize this simply ambiguity. I never stated that my lack of understanding was real. I was just showing an ad ignorantiam you made. You were the one to make the mistake with the logical fallacy lol, what are you even bitching over?!?

So, let's get it straight. Were you talking about the "lovey-dovey", philosophical message of "Let's all treat everyone as one!" or are you talking about the video's proposal of the true "physical" state of the universe?

They are two different concepts. I couldn't care less about the former. I'm arguing for the latter.

The "let's just treat everyone as one" - you know I'm not here to waste my time on that, so top trying to ridicule me - I didn't think you were so low to be sincere. And all I had to say about the latter is in this post, so mind reading before any hasty "you didn't explain!!"

Wow, Kromoh, for someone who claims to have experienced the ego-death, yours seem to have developed quite well.

no offense

edit.: By the way, that's not something you 'teach'...

Now, whether or not non-locality (vs the, "classical", locality) principle is taught over in the UK is beyond me. I honestly don't know. But, to mainstream U.S. science, as I know of it, it's pretty new/controversial material.

Thanks for the link.

What you have to understand is that in physics, the only thing we ever really do is make models to match observation.

Theories like relativity and Newtonian mechanics both have ranges is which they apply; Newton's apply to 'humanish' scales and Einstein's to 'cosmological' scales. It's just not possible for these models to be wrong; they are clearly observed via experiment.

Any quantum effect which explicitly doesn't work in the framework of relativity doesn't prove relativity wrong; it simply shows us that relativity can't be used for the quantum scale.

There may well come a time when quantum is expressed as a special case of some more general theory, just as it was once realised that for extremely big scales you have to use general relativity instead of Newtonian mechanics; Newton wasn't wrong, and at human scales General Relativity actually 'turns into' Newtonian mechanics perfectly. It's just that it didn't apply to all scales.

The kind of physics you learn in school is stuff like 'applying a constant force will cause a body to change its momentum per unit time proportional to that force'. This simply can't be debased. It's been observed millions of times via experiment. You don't learn about extremely advanced effects like these, that's for guys with PhDs, but still, Newtonian mechanics is not supposed to deal with exotic situations.

And there's nothing at all wrong with the method of progress in physics, ie. the scientific method. Science is completely open to change. If a physicist observes something, he tries to explain it, not hide it. The scientific method will always be pretty much exhaustively infallible.

Originally Posted by dajo

Wow, Kromoh, for someone who claims to have experienced the ego-death, yours seem to have developed quite well.

no offense

edit.: By the way, that's not something you 'teach'...

Yeah, ego loss is not something you do once and are done with. The ego is always there, stalking you, waiting to pounce when you let your guard down.

Kromoh, for all your writing, you've added absolutely nothing of any substance to this thread.

Originally Posted by dajo

Wow, Kromoh, for someone who claims to have experienced the ego-death, yours seem to have developed quite well.

no offense

edit.: By the way, that's not something you 'teach'...

Lol then you actually understand nothing about ego loss. You know nothing about it, so shut up. As you said yourself, this cannot be taught, so I won't even mind explaining what my ego has to do with my belief, because you will not understand it. Also, I already told O that you cannot teach it, but he has been challenging this from the beginning. Perhaps you should try to tell him.

Originally Posted by Xei

Thanks for the link.

What you have to understand is that in physics, the only thing we ever really do is make models to match observation.

Theories like relativity and Newtonian mechanics both have ranges is which they apply; Newton's apply to 'humanish' scales and Einstein's to 'cosmological' scales. It's just not possible for these models to be wrong; they are clearly observed via experiment.

Any quantum effect which explicitly doesn't work in the framework of relativity doesn't prove relativity wrong; it simply shows us that relativity can't be used for the quantum scale.

There may well come a time when quantum is expressed as a special case of some more general theory, just as it was once realised that for extremely big scales you have to use general relativity instead of Newtonian mechanics; Newton wasn't wrong, and at human scales General Relativity actually 'turns into' Newtonian mechanics perfectly. It's just that it didn't apply to all scales.

The kind of physics you learn in school is stuff like 'applying a constant force will cause a body to change its momentum per unit time proportional to that force'. This simply can't be debased. It's been observed millions of times via experiment. You don't learn about extremely advanced effects like these, that's for guys with PhDs, but still, Newtonian mechanics is not supposed to deal with exotic situations.

And there's nothing at all wrong with the method of progress in physics, ie. the scientific method. Science is completely open to change. If a physicist observes something, he tries to explain it, not hide it. The scientific method will always be pretty much exhaustively infallible.

Bravo Kinda bad some people don't even know what 'science' is, for people like Xei to have to explain it all over

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Yeah, ego loss is not something you do once and are done with. The ego is always there, stalking you, waiting to pounce when you let your guard down.

Kromoh, for all your writing, you've added absolutely nothing of any substance to this thread.

LOL Cusp, ego-loss is a trance state that you achieve with concentration. Break the concentration and you will be back to normal. But the things you learn while in there remain. Well, not the thing's' you learn, but the thing you learn. You talk about it so abstractedly, means you have no idea what it's about.

--

I never thought I'd see O and The Cusp agree O.o

and LOL Taosaur xD

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Lol then you actually understand nothing about ego loss. You know nothing about it, so shut up.

Is that one of the great koans?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Is that one of the great koans?

Lol it would be, if I wasn't atheist. Buddhism is a religion as any other. I hate all those agnostics who think it's superior for some reason.

(Huge post. Hide the women and children. )

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Don't try to say I didn't address it. I did. I'm not going to go into territory I'm not good at. But I already stated my opinion about it.

Fair enough. You said "the video is bullshit" and didn't offer any substantial reason as to why. If that is as far as you're willing to express your disagreement with the video, then I guess it'll just have to do.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

LOL no it isn't... Stop putting words in my mouth.

Maybe you should be a little more clear, then. You said "Do you think I would tell you if I didn't understand it?" That implies that you wouldn't. Now, I will give you the benefit of doubt and say that maybe you meant "Don't you think I would tell you if I didn't understand it?" That changes the meaning of the sentence entirely. And to answer that question, judging by the way you've been acting, I'd have to say "No."

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Lol there's no scientifically explaining human opinion, shall you? I think it is bullshit, because it does not make any credible sense. The reason, as I stated repeatedly, is that you shouldn't take quantum theory and place it in the middle of a philosophical discussion. Any conclusions arising from that have no scientific/logical validity whatsoever.

Rhetoric. If it doesn't make any credible sense (and I'm talking about the idea of the universe being immaterial), then explain why, in your opinion, it doesn't. If not, you're basically saying nothing more than "It's wrong because I think it's wrong, and you're a doodoo head!" with a lot more text than is necessary. I don't pretend to understand all of quantum physics, but there are a few concepts I'm at least familiar with, and they lend credence to the ideas expressed in the video - at least to an extent to where I'd like to see them argued, credibly, against. I'm open to many different opinions on the subject, as long as they are backed with some sort of substance. So far, you've failed to provide anything of the sort.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Lol you got me wrong again. I never said anything about "we are one". And this is the third time you get me wrong, so that is why I friggin said that only stating my reasons wouldn't make you understand, you'd have to experience it.

The same as a theist saying "My stating the reasons why God exists wouldn't make you understand. You'd have to experience it." It's, basically, baseless drivel. If you refuse to have a discussion about your ideas, and the foundations of your opinions - on the basis that "I wouldn't understand it" - then this conversation is over. There is literally no use in talking to you. I will revert back to your original post and just pretend I didn't challenge it. There's no use for us to sit her bickering back and forth when you're going to take the "Well you're just not going to understand, so I'm not going to attemp to explain it" stance. I have no desire to appeal to such ego.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

True nature of the universe? If you can't understand it at your current age, give up trying. I've already stated a lot like the Cavern Myth and the principle of uncertainty, to human perception. Understand whatever you want from it. But don't complain when I state I'm smarter than you.

Again, you're saying nothing but "I'm right because I"m smarter than you. You don't understand anything" all while succeeding in not posting a single shred of evidence to such.

You bring up the uncertainty principle which, if you paid attention to the video, you'd know wasn't even contradicted. Fundamentally, the uncertainty principle trumps all because, whatever theories are thrown out there we don't know for certain. But we can continue to try to drive toward that truth, and though we may never find it, we will gain knowledge along the way. Please explain why your throwing the uncertainty principle out there proves the video is in correct...or...while you're at it...provide any bit of substantial evidence as to why it's wrong. So far, you haven't done so.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Again, never said anything about "treat each other as one". You get me so wrong it's no even funny. I'm starting to believe you are incapable of it.

I'm giving you the benefit of doubt in thinking that I might have misunderstood you, which is why I asked if that's what you were talking about. You're making sense to no one but yourself, so forgive me for trying another avenue to see if that's what you were talking about.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I am not going to extensively refute everything they say on the video, first because I don't have the patience, second because I'm no expert, and third because I do know they know shit of what they are talking about. Much of what they say is just their own ideas, thrown in the middle of complicated scientific speech to make it sound scientific too.

And yet you offer nothing of substance to illustrate your point. Nothing. You don't have to "extensively" refute everything they say on the video, but saying "It's bullshit. There. I'm out." means absolutely nothing. So, if that's all you plan on contributing to the thread, there is no use in my trying to get you elaborate, and I readilly fold.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Haha, lol, you don't even know what philosophy is. This thing we are doing right now - debating - is philosophing. It's not scientifical but it follows debate rules - philosophy.

And you don't seem to understand the broadness of the term "philosophy." "Debating" is not philosophy. Debating certain subjects is philosophy. It has mostly to do with the nature of being, in the sense of how to act for whatever reason, be it ethics or indoctrination. Yes, it can bleed into the area of metaphysics (which is technically not what we're talking about, but physics), but the idea posted in the video is about a theoretical science. There is a philosophical message in the video, but - as I've said plenty of times - that's not what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

That said, I have given billion reasons to why that video is ridiculous. Go read the Cavern Myth, and you'll understand that you can imagine any explanation to the universe if you just decide to imagine. There's nothing scientific in the views held through the video. There, another reason for you. I've mentally counted at least 7 now.

You've mentally counted yet another "reason" that is completely insubstantial. You're saying "the video is wrong because you can imagine any explanation to the universe if you just decide to imagine." Dude. Do you even hear yourself? (Figuratively, of course) That blanket statement does absolutley nothing to credibly refute anything in the video. Nothing. And please, if there is anyone reading this, correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

No you didn't. If you did, try it again. That was style without substance. I explained you what logic is because you don't seems to know. Your idea of logic is ambiguous, mixed with others things, like human concepts of "good", "right", "sense", "simplicity". Logic is logic - and logic is one thing that's impartial and irrefutable. Premises are irrefutable, not logic.

As I said, and will say again: Logic, as a concept, is absolute. Logical conclusions (such as your very own) are subjective. You're trying to explain that your conclusion is "logic." And I'm trying to explain that your "logical conclusion" is subjective. Do you understand now? I don't think I can be any clearer than that.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

The will thing was my explanation. It is now taken for fact that you cannot understand my view. Thank you very much.

I'm having a hard time understanding your view because every single thing you've said in this thread amounts to "the video is nonsense because it doesn't change my mind." And "The video is nonsense because we can't know for sure what is out there" (which still says nothing to show why the points in the video are wrong, seeing as how it's putting for the idea that - as Lemonsoul obviously understands - our physical senses should not be necessarily counted on to give us an accurate depiction of the true state of the universe. Not a very hard concept at all to grasp.)

Originally Posted by Kromoh

No, that is not true, and you know it. Don't put words in my mouth goddamnit. That is just not logic, it's deduction. Deduction uses logic, but isn't irrefutable as logic - deduction can very easily be wrong.

Every deduction but your own, apparently. Or wait...your giving us the impression that your deduction is just irrefutable logic. I forgot. I'm sorry, your "logic" is infallible. Forgive me.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Logic would be something like the following line of thought: two people come out of a closet. One of them is injured. So, did the other person hurt them? The logical answer would be "not necessarily"

We see the universe through 5 senses. These senses come to us as electrical signals interpreted by our brain. Observing the universe through extra-sensory tools that allow us to see beyond our basic parameters of perception shows us that many of the things that seem a certain way to us, through our senses, are not actually that way.

Logically: the universe may not actually exist in the way our brains interpret it.

Do you disagree?

Originally Posted by Kromoh

It's the first one. And just go read the Cavern Myth NAO. It's quick and clean. You'll see that the video's so-bright theory was imagined in antiquity. The law of uncertainty was made on that exact principle - and this is physics 101. The answer is we'll never be able to prove if there is an "other, material world", instead of just echoes, or shadows, or whatever you want to think of it. But if you say this proves your point, then I'm sorry but that's an irrefutable argument.

The video doesn't state we can prove anything. Maybe you should rewatch it. It presents the idea that I stated above - nothing more. Like I said in the beginning, you missed the point of the video, and now you're trying to justify your initial position which (surprise) has nothing to do with the video.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Just so you don't have to ask again, my point is: don't try to use concepts from an unknown area of quantum physics to try to prove any point in a philosophical debate.

Unknown? I haven't said anything about quantum physics that isn't already known. Maybe you should brush up a bit. I've stated nothing but very simple observations that have been made, and haven't done one thing to explain why it is they are the way they are - which is the unknown principle you're accusing me of discussion...which I'm not.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Don't try to mask what you said. You did do an ad ignorantiam. And now you are making a strawman.

Do you even know the meaning of a straman? I'd love to see you explain how it was that I made one right there. Should be interesting.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I just said my lack of understanding the video doesn't mean the video is right, indeed. But you fail to recognize this simply ambiguity.

And I stated your saying the video is bullshit (whether you understood it or not) doesn't even lend a shred of credence to back your idea that it's bullshit. And I'll say again that, with all the typing you've done, you still haven't shown anything of substance.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I never stated that my lack of understanding was real. I was just showing an ad ignorantiam you made. You were the one to make the mistake with the logical fallacy lol, what are you even bitching over?!?

Oh, excuse me. I must have lost sight of my logical fallacy in the midst of all your ad hominems. Again, my mistake.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

The "let's just treat everyone as one" - you know I'm not here to waste my time on that, so top trying to ridicule me - I didn't think you were so low to be sincere. And all I had to say about the latter is in this post, so mind reading before any hasty "you didn't explain!!"

...You didn't explain (anything relevant to the video).

The crux of your argument is "the ideas expressed in the video are wrong because nobody knows for sure" - which is....basically, wrong. Just because we don't know for sure what's out there doesn't mean the idea that the universe likely isn't the exact same as we perceive it is wrong. Read this paragraph six times if you need to, so you can understand how simple the concept is.

Originally Posted by dajo

Wow, Kromoh, for someone who claims to have experienced the ego-death, yours seem to have developed quite well.

You noticed that too, eh? Maybe what he experienced is ego-undeath? (Where's a zombie smiley when you need one?)
Tell me, Kromoh...what did you take away from your "ego-loss"? Apparently you haven't retained too much, because you've shown enough ego in this thread to start a blitzkrieg.

Originally Posted by Xei

Thanks for the link.

What you have to understand is that in physics, the only thing we ever really do is make models to match observation.

Theories like relativity and Newtonian mechanics both have ranges is which they apply; Newton's apply to 'humanish' scales and Einstein's to 'cosmological' scales. It's just not possible for these models to be wrong; they are clearly observed via experiment.

Any quantum effect which explicitly doesn't work in the framework of relativity doesn't prove relativity wrong; it simply shows us that relativity can't be used for the quantum scale.

This is exactly my point, Xei. Exactly. I'm not saying that physics is wrong. I'm saying it is turned upside down when trying to measure things on the quantum scale, leading to an extensive level of uncertainty about the true nature of the universe. That's all. That's all I've been saying since the beginning. True enough, it's hard to word everything in a way that's easily interpreted by everyone, but if you go back and read what I've said before, with the knowledge of what I've said in this paragraph, you will understand more where I'm coming from.

It is like a diver on the cusp of diving to (what mankind believes is) the lowest depths of the ocean. But, when when he gets there, he finds a cavern that descends another 6 miles, rendering the amount of oxygen he used (Newtonian physics) as inadequate to make the rest of the trip. It doesn't mean the oxygen he used before didn't work - only that it requires possibly something else to go further.

Originally Posted by Xei

There may well come a time when quantum is expressed as a special case of some more general theory, just as it was once realised that for extremely big scales you have to use general relativity instead of Newtonian mechanics; Newton wasn't wrong, and at human scales General Relativity actually 'turns into' Newtonian mechanics perfectly. It's just that it didn't apply to all scales.

Again, I completely agree. Maybe I had a hard time wording it in a way that couldn't be interpreted as me saying Newtonian physics is wrong, and if that's the case, then I apologize. But I do remember stating before this that I didn't think "physics" was wrong.

Originally Posted by Xei

The kind of physics you learn in school is stuff like 'applying a constant force will cause a body to change its momentum per unit time proportional to that force'. This simply can't be debased. It's been observed millions of times via experiment. You don't learn about extremely advanced effects like these, that's for guys with PhDs, but still, Newtonian mechanics is not supposed to deal with exotic situations.

Of course not. Quantum physics would count as the exotic situations you are speaking of, yes? I'm saying that the way we perceive the world is not necessarily based in a way that includes these exotic situations. That is what the video is saying as well. You haven't commented much on the video itself, so if you agree with the notion that that is what the video is talking about, please explain it to Kromoh.

Originally Posted by Xei

And there's nothing at all wrong with the method of progress in physics, ie. the scientific method. Science is completely open to change. If a physicist observes something, he tries to explain it, not hide it. The scientific method will always be pretty much exhaustively infallible.

I'd have to ask you to please state where I ever said there was anything wrong with the scientific method. I have - and have always had - a great respect for the scientific method. I have said nothing against it at all, during the course of this thread and, indeed, during my entire stay here at DV.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

As you said yourself, this cannot be taught, so I won't even mind explaining what my ego has to do with my belief, because you will not understand it. Also, I already told O that you cannot teach it, but he has been challenging this from the beginning. Perhaps you should try to tell him.

Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed the part where I asked to be taught ego-death. Or that I challenged that you could teach it. I asked you to elaborate on your opinion, and you've tap-danced around doing so in every possible way. Now who's putting words into who's mouth?

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Bravo Kinda bad some people don't even know what 'science' is, for people like Xei to have to explain it all over

Hilarious. Overstepping Xei's misinterpretation of what I said, I'd like you to point to where I've showed a misunderstanding of the scientific method, in this thread.

Aaaannnnnd GO!

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I never thought I'd see O and The Cusp agree O.o

Another testament to how well you pay attention. The Cusp and I have agreed on a lot.

Now, all the bullshit aside...can we try to get this back on track? The video talks about how our perception of the universe can't be relied upon to depict the true state of the universe. It's a very simple premise. You state it's all bullshit. I'm asking you now, to drop your arrogance and explain your position (and the uncertainty principle does nothing to refute that idea). If you refuse to do that because "I wouldn't understand" (as delegated by your arrogance), then there is no reason for us to continue this conversation.

It's that simple.

Yeah, it looks like we're on the same page. I only went into the scientific method thing to cover all the bases, as I wasn't completely sure what exactly you were referring to.

There's really not much I can say about quantum mechanics though, as I say... I have a feeling it's just one of those things where, if you don't have a degree in it, you just can't really interpret what it means; if you can't do it quantitatively you probably can't do it philosophically. This has been my general experience with my education in the sciences, really.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

(Huge post. Hide the women and children. )

(huge breath)

Fair enough. You said "the video is bullshit" and didn't offer any substantial reason as to why. If that is as far as you're willing to express your disagreement with the video, then I guess it'll just have to do.

I already gave thousands of reasons to why I think this video is bullshit. Don't make be start retro-quoting.

Maybe you should be a little more clear, then. You said "Do you think I would tell you if I didn't understand it?" That implies that you wouldn't. Now, I will give you the benefit of doubt and say that maybe you meant "Don't you think I would tell you if I didn't understand it?" That changes the meaning of the sentence entirely. And to answer that question, judging by the way you've been acting, I'd have to say "No."

I wouldn't be debating if I hadn't understood the video. Unlike some people (like UM), I don't argue for "winning" the argument, nor to provoke people. If I've been discussing this up to know, you can bet I understood the video enough to think I'm capable of debating over it.

Rhetoric. If it doesn't make any credible sense (and I'm talking about the idea of the universe being immaterial), then explain why, in your opinion, it doesn't. If not, you're basically saying nothing more than "It's wrong because I think it's wrong, and you're a doodoo head!" with a lot more text than is necessary. I don't pretend to understand all of quantum physics, but there are a few concepts I'm at least familiar with, and they lend credence to the ideas expressed in the video - at least to an extent to where I'd like to see them argued, credibly, against. I'm open to many different opinions on the subject, as long as they are backed with some sort of substance. So far, you've failed to provide anything of the sort.

LOL. Once again - Don't apply concepts of the least understood part of science to debate philosophical questions, like what is the essence of the universe.

To think of it, the very definition of "material" refers to human perception. The universe is material because it's made of matter. Matter is what we defined matter to be. Whatever if it's intangible, or not very well understood - the universe is material because we defined it as material. What I'm saying is that quantum physics is one of those areas of knowledge that, if you don't understand fully, you can very easily misunderstand. And that is what the people on the video did.

Just like that question students may have: if the speed of light is the fastest there is, then you have a car is driving at 100km/h, doesn't the light coming from the car exceed the speed of light?
The answer is no, because the formulas we use for calculating speed are actually a simplistic model which isn't valid for extreme values. See how this is akin to quantum physics? If you don't understand it very well, you're very likely to misunderstand it.

The same as a theist saying "My stating the reasons why God exists wouldn't make you understand. You'd have to experience it." It's, basically, baseless drivel. If you refuse to have a discussion about your ideas, and the foundations of your opinions - on the basis that "I wouldn't understand it" - then this conversation is over. There is literally no use in talking to you. I will revert back to your original post and just pretend I didn't challenge it. There's no use for us to sit her bickering back and forth when you're going to take the "Well you're just not going to understand, so I'm not going to attemp to explain it" stance. I have no desire to appeal to such ego.

I've already said I've tried explaining this to multiple people, including you twice, and you didn't understand it. Even dajo confirmed it's not something you can teach. I've tried telling you, just go up there and see. But you didn't understand, so I wonder why you're still challenging me over this.

Again, saying nothing but "I'm right because I"m smarter than you. You don't understand anything" all while succeeding it not posting a single shred of evidence to such.

LOL I was just being bitchy over there xD

You bring up the uncertainty principle which, if you paid attention to the video, you'd know wasn't even contradicted. Fundamentally, the uncertainty principle trumps all because, whatever theories are thrown out there we don't know for certain. But we can continue to try to drive toward that truth, and though we may never find it, we will gain knowledge along the way. Please explain why your throwing the uncertainty principle out there proves the video is in correct...or...while you're at it...provide any bit of substantial evidence as to why it's wrong. So far, you haven't done so.

LOL OF COURSE the uncertainty principle wasn't contradicted. I said the whole basis of the logical reasoning in the video comes down to the uncertainty principle. "The universe could be very different from what we
think of it, so let's try to think of it differently, we might get right". The video uses the uncertainty principle as a means of being irrefutable.

I'm giving you the benefit of doubt in thinking that I might have misunderstood you, which is why I asked if that's what you were talking about. You're making sense to no one but yourself, so forgive me for trying another avenue to see if that's what you were talking about.

Rhetoric.

And yet you offer nothing of substance to illustrate your point. Nothing. You don't have to "extensively" refute everything they say on the video, but saying "It's bullshit. There. I'm out." means absolutely nothing. So, if that's all you plan on contributing to the thread, there is no use in my trying to get you elaborate, and I readilly fold.

I'm considering retro-quoting as we speak. I've already given you a list of reasons.

And you don't seem to understand the broadness of the term "philosophy." "Debating" is not philosophy. Debating certain subjects is philosophy. It has mostly to do with the nature of being, in the sense of how to act for whatever reason, be it ethics or indoctrination. Yes, it can bleed into the area of metaphysics (which is technically not what we're talking about, but physics), but the idea posted in the video is about a theoretical science. There is a philosophical message in the video, but - as I've said plenty of times - that's not what I'm talking about.

LOL. Debating ideas with a purpose of finding a logical answer - it's called dialectic - from the greek 'dialect', which means dialogue. Debating anything the way we are is considered philosophy.

LOL again. The video throws many opinions, many of them metaphysical, in the middle of scientific fact, in order to mask the opinions as facts, or at least give them credence. Nothing in the scientific part of the video was wrong. But the matter is, what exactly in the video was scientific?

You've mentally counted yet another reason that is completely insubstantial. You're saying "the video is wrong because you can imagine any explanation to the universe if you just decide to imagine. Dude. Do you even hear yourself? (Figuratively, of course) That blanket statement does absolutley nothing to credibly refute anything in the video. Nothing. And please, if there is anyone reading this, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'll retro-quote one I finish refuting to this post. You've convinced me.

As I said, and will say again: Logic, as a concept, is absolute. Logical conclusions (such as your very own) are subjective. You're trying to explain that your conclusion is "logic." And I'm trying to explain that your "logical conclusion" is subjective. Do you understand now? I don't think I can be any clearer than that.

LOL. Logical conclusions are not subjective. I know you are gonna call my argument irrefutable, but I've already tried explaining it to you more than once, and you misunderstood me on both. I gave many reasons why my conclusion is logic. If you missed them, it's not my fault.

I'm having a hard time understanding your view because every single thing you've said in this thread amounts to "the video is nonsense because it doesn't change my mind." And "The video is nonsense because we can't know for sure what is out there" (which still says nothing to show why the points in the video are wrong, seeing as how it's putting for the idea that - as Lemonsoul obviously understands - our physical senses should not be necessarily counted on to give us an accurate depiction of the true state of the universe. Not a very hard concept at all to grasp.)

No, wrong. I didn't say "the video is nonsense because it doesn't change my mind". I said "the video is nonsense and it doesn't change my mind".

Nor did I say "the video is nonsense because we can't know for sure what is out there". I actually meant that the video makes an irrefutable argument based on the uncertainty principle. And trying to defend an idea based on the uncertainty principle is the worst thing I've ever heard of.

LOL, if you're not going to rely on your physical sense, what will you rely on? Who knows if even your physical senses are an illusion, and you're only dreaming this. Who knows if even your thoughts are an illusion. Maybe we don't exist at all. Welcome to the uncertainty principle - don't try to prove an argument based on it, it won't work.

Every deduction but your own, apparently. Or wait...your giving us the impression that your deduction is just irrefutable logic. I forgot. I'm sorry, your "logic" is infallible. Forgive me.

Oh man. Stop making bullshit statements. Deduction is one thing, logic is another. That's what I explained earlier, because you didn't know the difference. If I based my view on deduction or logic is another, completely unrelated thing.

Also, stop trying to "win" this argument just for the sake of it. Contrary to you, some people actually mean what they say in discussions like this. I can count at least 5 extra long posts of yours, where you only challenge my belief,s and offer nothing substantial yourself to refute to my arguments. Should I say that magical word?

We see the universe through 5 senses. These senses come to us as electrical signals interpreted by our brain. Observing the universe through extra-sensory tools that allow us to see beyond our basic parameters of perception shows us that many of the things that seem a certain way to us, through our senses, are not actually that way.

LOL. Who said your senses aren't an illusion? Who said your brain isn't an illusion? Who said you concept of "brain" isn't an illusion. Maybe you're just dreaming this, and even I don't exist. This is what they fucking call UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE. And the UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE is ironically the only certainty we have. But it can't be used to prove any argument at all, and trying to do that produces irrefutable arguments.

Logically: the universe may not actually exist in the way our brains interpret it.

Do you disagree?

Maybe even your brain doesn't exist. Maybe even your awareness doesn't exist. Free will is an illusion. I am discussing this with you knowing that it doesn't change in any way the uncertainty principle. Maybe you're just my imagination. That's what I mean by the video, nor you, changing my view on the subject.

The video doesn't state we can prove anything. Maybe you should rewatch it. It presents the idea that I stated above - nothing more. Like I said in the beginning, you missed the point of the video, and now you're trying to justify your initial position which (surprise) has nothing to do with the video.

So, the video states the uncertainty principle? Is that all you're taking from the video? Then I'm losing my time here. Plato did it with the fucking Cavern Myth I told you to read pages ago. Maybe if you had read it, we wouldn't be arguing now.

Unknown? I haven't said anything about quantum physics that isn't already known. Maybe you should brush up a bit. I've stated nothing but very simple observations that have been made, and haven't done one thing to explain why it is they are the way they are - which is the unknown principle you're accusing me of discussion...which I'm not.

I already responded to this with the car and speed of light problem, up above.

Do you even know the meaning of a straman? I'd love to see you explain how it was I made one right there. Should be interesting.

Strawman is when you change what the person said when responding, and thus refuting a false argument instead of the person's argument. You said I did something and refuted to it while I didn't.

I never said anything about the video being right because I didn't prove it wrong. I said about the video being right because I (allegedly) didn't understand it.

Also, the ad ignoramtiam you made... don't just ignore it lol. That's what I was criticizing you for - even if a person (me or someone else) doesn't understand an argument, it doesn't mean it's true. I made a supposition to try to teach you something and you criticize me for it. *.*

And I stated your saying the video is bullshit (whether you understood it or not) doesn't even lend a shred of credence to back your idea that it's bullshit. And I'll say again that, with all the typing you've done, you still haven't shown anything of substance.

It doesn't lend credence to the video either. I gave many reasons why I think the video is bullshit, and you ignored them all.

Oh, excuse me. I must have lost sight of my logical fallacy in the midst of all your ad hominems. Again, my mistake.

Ad hominem is not even a logical fallacy, you idiot xD It's an argumentative fallacy.

...You didn't explain (anything relevant to the video).

The crux of your argument is "the ideas expressed in the argument are wrong because nobody knows for sure. Which is....basically, wrong. Just because we don't know for sure what's out there doesn't mean the idea that the universe likely isn't the exact same as we perceive it is wrong. Read this paragraph six times if you need to, so you can understand how simple the concept is.

No, that is not what I said (which means you're making a strawman - happy?). I said that the basis of the video's reasoning is the uncertainty principle (I refuse to explain it once again), and that it doesn't prove anything in an argument. The uncertainty principle cannot LOGICALLY be wrong. I never attacked the uncertainty principle LOL. But any conclusions made from it are bullshit. Why? because there is absolutely zero certainty. maybe invisible pink unicorns exist, and we just can't see them. So let's just go and believe them, right?

You noticed that too, eh? Maybe what he experienced is ego-undeath? (Where's a zombie smiley when you need one?)
Tell me, Kromoh...what did you take away from your "ego-loss"? Apparently you haven't retained too much, because you've shown enough ego in this thread to start a blitzkrieg.

Haha, again, you never understood when I explained the essence of it, so don't criticize what you don't know. Having experienced a moment of ego-loss doesn't change "how much" ego I have left. Lol. Ego is not quantifiable. It's a status. And you're an ignorant.

Hilarious. Overstepping Xei's misinterpretation of what I said, I'd like you to point to where I've showed a misunderstanding of the scientific method, in this thread.

Aaaannnnnd GO!

I didn't mean you, idiot. Which only makes you more of an idiot. lmao

Another testament to how well you pay attention. The Cusp and I have agreed on a lot.

And to think I thought you were a wise guy..

Now, all the bullshit aside...can we try to get this back on track? The video talks about how our perception of the universe can't be relied upon to depict the true state of the universe. It's a very simple premise. You state it's all bullshit. I'm asking you now, to drop your arrogance and explain your position (and the uncertainty principle does nothing to refute that idea). If you refuse to do that because "I wouldn't understand" (as delegated by your arrogance), then there is no reason for us to continue this conversation.

Yes, the video talks about the uncertainty principle. Yes, no problem with that. But as you acknowledge it, it uses that as a premise. I will not repeat the fact that any conclusion made from the uncertainty principle is bullshit, because there is zero certainty. Oops, I just did.

I already tried to explain it to you, and you didn't understand. So don't say that.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

LOL Cusp, ego-loss is a trance state that you achieve with concentration. Break the concentration and you will be back to normal. But the things you learn while in there remain. Well, not the thing's' you learn, but the thing you learn. You talk about it so abstractedly, means you have no idea what it's about.

I have no idea? Will you seriously listen to yourself? I've been pursuing ego loss for longer than you've been alive. As a matter of fact, it's become my greatest fear. Maybe someday you'll understand why that is.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Kinda bad some people don't even know what 'science' is, for people like Xei to have to explain it all over

I hope you include yourself in that group, as you've shown a poor grasp of every single concept that's been brought up so far. Even the concept of a science sub forum seems to elude you, since you're only arguments stem from this miraculous ego loss you've attained. Those arguments might have worked elsewhere, and there are several threads similar to this one floating around DV. The fact that you chose this, the science sub-forum, to spout your garbage just shows how off the mark you really are.

Lol fear is also a human emotion.

And lol, it's not a miraculous thing. If you say it is, then you do not understand it. I didn't even pay attention to this being in the science subforum or not. I was just stating my views about the topic brought up by the OP. Stop criticizing me for something you do not understand. Also, read what Xei said before you criticize my reply to him. You'd definitely agree with me. Now stop being a bitch just because you dislike people like me.