Thread: Three specific questions regarding WILD

1) First let's clarify that SP is not the same thing as someone feeling vibrations or seeing colors. The vibrations and images are H.I or H.H. and anyone what so ever can achieve them with only a little practice. SP involves inability to move. I do not mention this for Empedocles, as I know he is aware, but just to clarify for general readers. There are two basic forms of WILD. The first involves maintaining awareness and refusing to give it up until a dream forms. this is a difficult art form, and is the type where lots of H.I and H.H occur. You repeat a phrase or count and so on, while trying to relax enough for your body to sleep. This form is difficult as it really is a fairly advanced meditation like mental ability. When using this form one may enter nREM stages and that is where all sorts of crazy images and sensations take place. this is pretty much the style you seem aware of.
What is the other style/ form? The method Sageous and Myzzk teach is not at all like this. It is a much easier form, but offers less control and perhaps has a lower rate of success. It does however have major advantages. A clear advantage that I see is little time is wasted and your night suffers little from sleeplessness. In the second form, the key difference is that falling asleep is of high priority. You simply do something like a mantra to assist in carrying some hint of awareness in to the first few minutes of sleep. But here is the big difference,,, you go the hell to sleep one way or the other. the focus on falling swiftly into sleep means H.I. and awareness of REM atonia are much less likely, in fact they play little or no role.
I hope everyone can see the difference? In one version you do your anchor, such as counting and refuse to loose awareness. this may prevent sleep, but if you can sleep you stay aware even in nREM and can be fully aware for an hour or more while experiencing vivid hallucinations. If awareness begins to fade you must focus, and focus hurts the chance of sleep. In the other version, you have the anchor (mantra/ counting) running quietly in the background and try to fall asleep. As in sleep is the main goal.
Both work and the second is actually easier and disturbs sleep less. I personally feel that the results are not nearly as likely with the second (sleep as the goal) and that the degree of mental sharpness can be less also upon attaining lucidity. So, why use the second form (taught by Sageous and Myzzk)? Well it has huge advantages! You do not need to reach any specific state such as REM atonia. You do not waste any of your night in sleeplessness. Finally, it does not drive you crazy with worrying about moving or swallowing. That is a huge plus.
If I have a lot of time and am serious about forcing myself to have an LD and also maintain high awareness in order to complete goals, then I use the first form (refuse to loose awareness, even at the cost of sleeplessness). On most nights however, as I need to get lots of sleep for work, I just follow the basic ideas Sageous teaches. You mention that he talks about H.I? Well he does not use them as part of his system. he actually encourages you to simply accept them if they occur, but not to let them prevent you from moving deeper into sleep.
My apologies to both gifted dreamers (Sageous and Myzzk) if I have misrepresented their general teachings.

2) The method I like to use if visualizing kinetics. I do not start with visuals. I start with imagining the sensation of walking. I pretend I can feel myself strolling along. If you are in a sleep phase (as I assume SP must be) you should start feeling the visualized subject. After I can feel myself walking I then allow myself to become aware of what arises naturally in my visual field. I then expand on what is there. Perhaps the left side of the field of vision has green swirls, I may think that is branches blowing in the wind. If blobs are bouncing around I think 'oh those are rabbits running in a field of wheat.' I wait until some of the visuals actually take a form based on my thoughts, them I impose the thought of what I want to see, "I am about to see some houses."

Here's my take:

Originally Posted by Empedocles

1.) What is a very good method to try and WILD without SP (REM Atonia) being a part of it?

If you look again at my class, you'll see that it basically is about achieving a WILD without regard for the noise. Indeed, I only mentioned the noise ("SP," HI, etc) because it is so popular on these forums, and to attempt to point out its irrelevance. You may have misunderstood what I was saying (that happens to me a lot), since my WILD method does not incorporate or need any of the noise, including SP. However, if you are looking for a long and very detailed method for achieving WILD without SP, then perhaps you might read it again.

2.) What is a good way to create a dream scene during SP?

I thought you were looking for ways to avoid working from "SP?" How about creating a dream scene during the quiet time before the actual dream begins? Again, I go into better detail in the Forming Your Dreams session of my WILD class which I highly recommend you reread, but suffice it to say that you can form a dream that is not your bedroom by entering your WILD with strong intentions built upon waking life expectations of where you'd rather be: prep your unconscious during waking-life, and it will likely deliver a better dream. During that quiet time you can draw upon your expectations and build a desired dream schema through visualization, you could remember a previous dream (especially when doing a DEILD), even by manipulating HI imagery.

Also, by making a point that you are going to avoid waking up in your room -- and by not thinking about waking up in your room at all -- you might be able to avoid the room. However, if you fail to form a dream, you might wind up in some other "ready-made" dream scene that is just as boring and difficult to leave.

3.) Why do my WILDs start to fade after I distance myself too much from my "dream bedroom"?

Don't walk so far from your dream scene, then!

Seriously, the reason you're having trouble is because you are asking your unconscious to offer up new dream schemata at a time when it may not be prepared to do so. This is because of two things, I think: First, during naps or WBTB your unconscious is caught a little off guard and hasn't had time to lay all the foundations necessary to have a scrolling dream scene, so it responds to your exit with lots of grayness or, often, by simply returning you wakefulness. Second, your state during WILD is much different than DILD, much closer to wakefulness, so your unconscious might simply not have enough of a foothold in your physical condition (that of post-night's-sleep near wakefulness) to offer dreams that can shout down impending consciousness. In either case your unconscious will respond by either waking you up, or making lucidity very difficult as it races to form new dreams without you.

How can you combat this? First, don't leave! Stay right where you are in the dream, in that safe area you mention, and gradually bring your desired dream to you. While always being conscious of the delicacy of your state, just gently allow new scenery to arrive while just as gently pushing away the old scenery. If you start the process and are patient, you will likely be where you wanted to be (or at least somewhere else) in a short time... this process also gives your unconscious a chance to spool up a new dream at its own pace, so even if you're really bad at erasing and adding images, the time spent calmly trying will take you to a new dream anyway.

There are other, more metaphoric things you can do, like making a door or transporting, which can work, but if your unconscious isn't prepared, then they will likely just bring you to another gray place, or wakefulness.

I hope all that made sense, let me know if it didn't! And, though I appreciate that you read through my class, I hope you'll have time to review, as I think there is a lot there that you'll find helpful.

Thank you for your replies, sivason and Sageous.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I thought you were looking for ways to avoid working from "SP?"

I'll have to learn the "without-SP" method first. Until then I have to do it always from SP.

Seriously, the reason you're having trouble is because you are asking your unconscious to offer up new dream schemata at a time when it may not be prepared to do so. This is because of two things, I think: First, during naps or WBTB your unconscious is caught a little off guard and hasn't had time to lay all the foundations necessary to have a scrolling dream scene, so it responds to your exit with lots of grayness or, often, by simply returning you wakefulness. Second, your state during WILD is much different than DILD, much closer to wakefulness, so your unconscious might simply not have enough of a foothold in your physical condition (that of post-night's-sleep near wakefulness) to offer dreams that can shout down impending consciousness.

It makes perfect sense, and those were exactly my thoughts as well.

It seems kind of like turning on your computer and immediately trying to open a large file, but the operating system needs more time to "settle".

Originally Posted by Empedocles

It seems kind of like turning on your computer and immediately trying to open a large file, but the operating system needs more time to "settle".

That is actually an excellent analogy, I think...

Originally Posted by Sageous

That is actually an excellent analogy, I think...

Why thanks.