Thread: Can't fall asleep during WILD

Let go of the idea of falling asleep when it comes to WILD. Instead think of it as moving your focus of awareness.

The world you are in right now is a physical place, the dream world is a non-physical place.

When you experience the physical world you do that through your five senses, mainly sight and touch.

So if you want to transition from this physical place to a non-physical dream world, you close your eyes and and lay still to no longer move or feel the physical world and instead start to use your non-physical senses of sight and touch or any other of the senses of your chosing.

How does that feel? Close your eyes right now and imagine holding a pen, or holding an apple and take a bite of it. Easy right?

However as you do this a part of your awareness is still in this physical world so you don't experience the non-physical as vividly because just like a radio channel can't be fully experienced unless it properly tuned and in the right frequency, your reality can't be fully experienced unless your awareness is tuned in to that reality and right frequency. (brain frequency? http://www.crystalinks.com/brainwaves1.jpg)

If you want to experience a non-physical (perhaps subconscious awareness) I recommend that you try out meditaiton. This is what I experienced just a moment ago:
I sat in a chair and just stared into a while wall and I put a timer on 5 min. Then I just stare into the wall and focus on staying still and observe and accept whatever that might happen. About 2 min in I start to get bored and nod off for a few seconds, during these nod offs I experience weird scenery, In one of them I was climbing a mountain only to wake back up when my head nods in the physical world. But as I wake up again I realize that I wasn't thinking about mountains or climbing, so what was I experiencing if it wasn't my thoughts? I choose to see them as a glimpse of perhaps my subconscious which is a non-physical experience!
What also strikes me is that I could impossibly have been in REM-sleep since it was in the later afternoon, but it was still very vivid.

So can you call this a dream? I don't know, but it was an experience never the less.

So how does this relate to WILD? Well it shows us that when we move our focus of awareness away from the physical world and focus on something non-physical instead - We are there! The non-physical world doesn't have the same rules as our physical world, we don't move and navigate with our body, we move and navigate with our focus of awareness.

So all the questions like "Is it ok if I swallow during WILD?", "Is it ok to move a little?", "When is the best time to WILD?", "What is the best method to WILD?" gets answered!

It has nothing to do with the physical world, not your body, not your brain (well maybe), the only question you need to ask yourself is "How do I focus my awareness on the non-physical?" Also if you feel some weird sensation in your body, well ignore it and keep focusing on the non-physical viusalization or what ever! Because your body is physical remember? And where your awareness stays your experience stays...

And now to finally get to your question, which answer might shock you, but as I have tried to show you....

"Can't fall asleep during WILD" - Question -> How do I fall asleep during WILD?

Answer: You don't have to fall asleep to WILD, you just have to move your awareness.

But if you have trouble falling asleep in general, it probably has to do with your mind, lots of thoughts or problems that you try to resist which leads to stress.
Meditation is a good way of solving this.

One thing to note: A WBTB is recommended to beginners since you then already wake up relaxed and since you are in REM you brain is perhaps in a frequency that makes it easier for you to focus. So do this if you are new, but remember that it's just an aid an not a necessity!
My best comparison to make you understand what I mean would be alcohol(WBTB) and flirting(WILD):
You don't need alcohol to flirt, but it puts you in a state of mind that makes it much easier..

Remember this is only my view of the the WILD process, I hope it helps you!

Good luck!

Thank you for your elaborate response with clear examples. It really clarifies things for me! I will practice visualization (I'm trying to become an artist so it will be useful anyway).

Thanks once again, I especially loved your flirting-alcohol comparison haha
Stay awesome

Yeah, hopefully I understood this all correctly but listen to this: my first WILD came completly by accident. The trick is focusing on your mind. When you focus on your body it makes it a billion times harder to WILD because it makes you want to move your body and what not. now when i say focus on your mind I mean just imagine something and whenever you have thoughts or anything let them pass or let them overcome you. For me when I let the thoughts over come me they are what start the WILD. So next time you try to WILD let your thoughts "manifest" and literally without even trying they will start your dream. Its the most coolest thing ever. I hope I explained this right lol.

Glad to hear that it was helpful.

A simple way of really experiencing this concept of, wherever your awareness is there you are, is to just relax for a minute and observe your thoughts and go with the flow, and see what your mind show you. This is an indirect process of the non-physical focus, which I prefer the most because when you let go the trick is to focus on nothing, and how simple doesn't that sound? A method of doing nothing. However it is harder than it sounds, because you actually have to teach yourself to do nothing.

But for a beginner that just want to experience this "shift" in awareness from the physical to the non-physical you can try out what I have done since I was a child, and that I only recently understood the process of. And that is to go for the direct process of non-physical focus, which means that you actively focus on something non-physical that you choose. Like for example closing your eyes and imagine hearing a song that you like, or hearing a person talk, or imagine holding your phone.
The stronger memory you have of it, the easier it is to imagine. When I do this, atleast for me, I can suddenly experience that I for a split second (or longer!) felt like I really heard the sound, felt the sensation, or saw the place that I was imagining. Then just like an excited beginner does when he/ or she experience the first lucid dream, the shock or excitement or non-prepared mind, gets kicked out of the experience. When this happens, the non-physical focus idea gets really clear!

To convince you even more that it's the focus of awareness that is the key, try doing this with eyes open or as you do something else, like working out or sitting in school. Ok maybe not sitting in school ... But it's a good example because how many times haven't you been daydreaming in school while your teacher speaks loudly about something not so entertaining, and you just sit their daydreaming <- (Focusing on the non-physical world partly) and then your teacher suddenly mentions your name and you had no idea what he had said. Why? Because your focus was on something else, or rather somewhere else!

Some years ago I had a friend that told me that he could lucid dream while taking a shower or working out, I didn't understand what that ment then, but I do now!

Warning do not attempt to do this while driving!

Also watch this video at 32:09 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Dlsa8tbvU

(I don't believe in literal chakras or a holy third eye, but I do believe however that these are perfect metaphors of what needs to be done.

Your journey of happiness is handled in this order, Survival, Sex, Power, Love, Expression, Perception, Spiritual. And to "perfect the third eye" would be to focus your awareness within with stability. What the meaning of enlightenment is for me, I have not yet discovered.)

Ops I guess I like to write and think a little too much... I better meditate

I'll see you in Nirvana, or something..

I agree with OneUpBoy71. And i started my WILDs by accident too (i was performing MILD and it turned to WILD).
But now i've been having WILDs every week just by doing one simple thing: nothing. It works best when i have slept for 7-8 hours. I just lie there, thinking of nothing. If some thought appears i just let it wander and try not to think of it. It may last for 1 hour or more, but WILD always comes.

Seems my approach was wrong... Thanks for all the helpful responses!

I tried your responses out and I almost performed a WILD!
After some random sensations like my body feeling heavy/numbed and a few hazy colors flying past I felt something pulling at me...
I know that was one of the possible WILD transfer sensations so I just kept focused but calm.
The pull increased in strength but I feel like I might've focused on it too much, since it went away when I tensed up a bit more than I intended to, whilst still not being in a dream.

I do have some questions now, though:

1. When you let your mind wander, should you focus on the random diverting thoughts to manifest them and make them into the dream or should you let them pass by; the dream will come up by itself?
2. When WILDing, if you want to create a certain dream scenario to start in, when should you start visualizing that scenario?
3. Is there a way to know when you've completed the transfer?

Thanks for all your help so far guys

From my experiences:

1. When you let your mind wander, should you focus on the random diverting thoughts to manifest them and make them into the dream or should you let them pass by; the dream will come up by itself?
-I let the thoughts wander and pass by. The dream will start by itself. The one thing i focus is if some dream object appears in front of me. This will keep me tied to the dream world.

2. When WILDing, if you want to create a certain dream scenario to start in, when should you start visualizing that scenario?
-I guess right at the beginning, when you begin to feel the vibrations. Better yet, before you do WILD. I did MILD (thinking of a mantra and a scenario) and that took me to a WILD.

3. Is there a way to know when you've completed the transfer?
-I know that i've completed the transfer when i see my bedroom or another scenario in front of me in vivid image.

I found this thread extremely helpful. Like the OP, I have attempted to WILD on numerous occasions (mostly after I wake to write in my DJ) but never manage to fall asleep. I'm constantly distracted by body sensations (itchy nose, etc.) and a busy mind/thoughts. I see now there are other potential approaches to entry into a WILD other than blanking the mind and trying to remain mentally alert while waiting for your body to fall asleep - which was my only prior understanding of how to employ this method.

My current situation is that I am keeping a dream journal, and recording between one (lazy night) and four (motivated night) dreams per night with reasonably good recall and detail. Still, other than one extremely brief LD (only a few moments long) I've had no success achieving lucidity since resolving to recover my childhood LD skills in March of this year.

I'm getting to the point where I'm giving serious consideration to trying various supplements I've been reading about on this forum to try and kick-start my dream vividness and conscious recognition of the dream state.

Frank

I was very wakeful last night for hours for various reasons starting around 4am and on towards about 7am I started experiencing a number of dream formations, and entered a few. They may have been in fact short WILDs with very low awareness, but I was so interested in the scenes that I didn't pay attention to the lucidity I (may have) entered with. It was a very slow gradual process, I noticed, of HI/HH occuring more and more frequently. It wasn't my planned intention to WILD, simply to sleep and dream, but when the images started occuring I sort of shifted to wanting to enter a dream through them.

One way to help nudge HI into a dream is to practice observation with awareness yet without "focusing" sharply, or feeling like you're "using your eyes." Sivason's dream yoga diffuse vision exercise helps with this, something I have been practicing for a while now, and I think this is a really valuable tool to help entering dreams.

FryingMan:

I read your DJ entry for last night and I see you take quite a number of supplements in combination. For a person such as myself what would you recommend as a first supplement? About three years ago someone mentioned 5-HTP to me as a dietary supplement for some reason. I took it once, and never again. It gave me violent, bizarre dreams - VERY memorable, though. I was thinking of trying it again, since now, with a little training, the very nature of the dream content might force me to become lucid and take control or try to change the dream.

I ordered an ounce of whole Silene capensis (African Dream Root) and have a thoroughly researched understanding of methods of ingestion, timing of ingestion, and the compounds thought to be responsible for the enhanced dream effects. As a botanical source, I am also well aware that results are likely to be heavily influenced by the age of the plant at time of harvest, season of harvest, freshness, etc. I think that all these variables (and more) have contributed to the hit-or-miss experiences of people who have ingested it. Sounded too interesting a botanical to pass up, though. Should arrive Thursday or Friday.

Frank

LawyerFrank:
Let me begin by saying: I'm a supplement noob myself. I've read Yuschak's book (Advanced Lucid dreaming) and another paper of his, and other than that I go by anecdotal experiences on here and on various google results. I've probably had a grand total of 10 supplement nights altogether, I'm traveling now so I have the opportunity to experiment without having to explain what these 10 bottles of weird-sounding stuff is all about, not to mention a 1-pound bag of cut-up wormwood that just arrived, and the 2oz pack of mugwort . So it looks like I do "supplements a lot" but it's just the density of the usage that makes it look like that. So all this is just IMO.

I've also been on a fairly nasty 1-month dreaming and lucid dry spell and I've been looking for ways to nudge myself out of that and build up some positive expectation again. I really understand the motivation to reach for supplements, but I've been in serious everyday LD practice for over 8 months now mostly with no supplements. So there is *something* to trying for longer, and giving it more time for your self-awareness, memory, and dream recall/awareness to build up more and come all together.

However us "mature" guys may just need a boost from time to time.

Really my major recommendations are: 1) experiment, it's the only way to find what works for you, and 2) take it slow, minimum dosage at first, building over time as needed to see results, either until you find a reliable dosage, or determine that it's just not going to work for you at the dosages you're willing to take. Oh, the 0-level recommendation is: read the Yuschak book first.

Another point is: invest in "getting back to sleep" technique without supplements before taking them. These supplements work by stimulating brain activity and that can mean wakefulness. Understand and accept without frustration (since that leads to anxiety and negative expectation) that in the beginning, you may be up for a while, maybe until morning. Cultivate a calm, happy, peaceful attitude, and eventually (if you take them early enough) you will drift to sleep. Everyone says "get up after 5 hours to take supplements" I tried 4 and someone recommended 3.5 even. Most important is to get back to sleep, then try to slowly move the supplement time closer to your peak dreaming hours.

Let me say that I'm not entirely sure exactly what gave me my nice results of the last few days. It *could* have been simply: REM suppression and WBTB. Or maybe just simply long WBTBs. It will take more experimentation to find out for sure.

My GOAL is supplement-free nights full of long awesome vivid dreams, with a heaping helping of lucidity. I'm just now trying to get myself kickstarted again and hopefully not waste all of this solo bed time on this trip due to jet lag recovery.

Now, my first reaction is: if 5-HTP gives you violent, bizarre, memorable dreams, I'd say: SCORE! That's the goal! Those dreams make you sit up and pay attention (in addition to keeping you swept up in emotions, so that's the flipside). Dreams that give me a quick shock are better than those with a slow long wallow in strong emotions, but anything that creates memorable dreams absolutely must be on the list.

I really like the notion of starting just with REM suppression; melatonin and 5-HTP taken at bedtime can result in deep restful sleep in the first part of the night (dosage depending on how long), and REM-biased sleep in the 2nd half. The absolute best results so far have been: 1 night with 3mg melatonin at bed time and that's all, and 1 night with body builder muscle protein/vitamin/carb blend at bedtime. The former made me wake up feeling like crap about to swear off all supplements forever, but after a long BTB I had long vivid dreams where I realized I had been dreaming for a long time, got lucid twice. The protein powder resulted in late morning long vivid bizarre action-packed dreams with brief lucidity at the end.

It's really hard to say without long studies what really happened. Maybe my dreaming just finally caught up with my continuing awareness work?

I"m jealous about the African Dream Root, the notion that taking it in the morning ever day for 3 months can *permanently* give you awesome vivid dreams all night long is well, awesome. Also smacks a bit of "too good to be true". Maybe there are other things that change permanently? Anyway, if you're going to do that, you should probably avoid all other supplements. I have no idea about stacking/interactions with ADR and anything else.

My Galantamine night was the Yuschak recommendation, "multiple trigger" 5-HTP at bedtime for REM suppression and deep restful sleep in the 1st half of the night, then galantamine + choline(s). choline bitartrate hits fast, alpha-gpc hits later, that's the reason to take both so the effective period of the galantamine lasts longer. Read Yuschak, again, and don't try galantamine more than once every 4 nights unless you're going to take the "pirecetam(?)" to avoid desensitization.

So that's a jumble of stuff if anything's unclear let me know!

p.s. just to clarify what "experiment" means: try various: 1) dosages, 2) kinds of supplements and combinations, 3) timings (at bedtime? at 5 hrs? 4 hrs? etc.). One other thing Yuschak recommends is to mix things up: so your body "never knows what's coming" and can't get used to it. And take breaks once in a while to let everything flush out.

Wow...what a thorough response.

I"m jealous about the African Dream Root, the notion that taking it in the morning ever day for 3 months can *permanently* give you awesome vivid dreams all night long is well, awesome. Also smacks a bit of "too good to be true". Maybe there are other things that change permanently?

Don't be jealous. I don't believe that claim for a minute. There is no physiologic rationale for such a phenomena. Even if ADR caused significant up or down regulation of neurotransmitters in the brain, it would never be "permanent" - you can take that to the bank. In all of my medical and pharmacologic literature review (including all the top illicit drug forums) in not ONE instance did any English-speaking individual ever claim that effect. As Carl Sagan once said "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

With regard to the 5-HTP...I was sufficiently distressed by its effects that I either gave it away or threw it out. I MIGHT have to give it another trial one of these days...but I know what that is about. Right now, the ADR has piqued my curiosity, so I'm going to start there. I'll keep you advised.

BTW...why are you jealous? Do you live in a geographic locale where it is illegal? There are not many! It is available on-line, and isn't particularly pricey.

Frank

Interesting, what do you think of the claim that overdoses of B6 cause permanent nerve damage? Yuschak claims that over-use of some substances can lead to "permanent" desensitization. Well, multi-year might as well be "permanent." Re: jealous, oh, just making conversation.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Interesting, what do you think of the claim that overdoses of B6 cause permanent nerve damage? Yuschak claims that over-use of some substances can lead to "permanent" desensitization. Well, multi-year might as well be "permanent." Re: jealous, oh, just making conversation.

It is well documented in medical literature. But that's what comes with taking 800 times the recommended dosage. B6, like almost everything (including water and oxygen and just about everything else you can think of) will have toxic side effects in large enough doses. Oxygen at high concentrations is toxic. Drink enough water and you absolutely will die. Neurotoxicity secondary to excess amounts of pyridoxine is well documented fact, not rumor or surmise.

W/R/T "jealous". OK, now I understand. I thought maybe you lived in a place where it was illegal (like Canada).

Frank

Well, now wait a minute, if you're fine that one substance can permanently change the behavior of the nervous system, what makes you think that another substance could not make a different sort of permanent change? So substances can permanently have affects, (beyond just fatal toxicity), whether positive or negative is a matter of opinion (some people hate to dream). So while there is no western medical establishment documentation on ADR, why poo-poo the lore that may go back thousands of years? Or is it that only destructive effects can be permanent you think?

Just curious. And ADR may in fact be harder to come by where I live but I don't think it's illegal. Anyway I'm quite excited about tonight's first mugwort experience.

Ummmm...because they're completely different molecules with completely different modes of action and completely different potential for harm.

To be clear, I am not poo-pooing anyone's beliefs. That is impossible. If I were to say I believed 100 angels can dance on the head of a pin, there is nothing you could ever say to dissuade me, because I BELIEVE it. Doesn't make it a fact, just a belief. What I did say is that in all my research (quite a bit) I have not been able to turn up one instance recorded in English (the only language I can read) of a documented instance of perma-lucidity or whatever you want to call the alleged effect of three months of ADR ingestion. I know very well that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In trying to ascertain whether this claim holds water, I have not come up with any evidence, but again, this is not conclusive proof one way or the other.

The final difficulty is (and I've already mentioned this) that as a botanical source, components of ADR are likely to vary GREATLY. Just look at the number of people who go through the procedure of trying to get their particular sample to foam (evidence of saponins). Some succeed, many fail. The freshness, handling, season of harvest, age of plant of origin, climate - so many things can influence the presence or absence of active components. And then we have the human variables (too numerous to mention). Without any ability to standardize all variables, the question can't be answered in a manner for all persons. I've concluded I just have to see what, if anything ADR does for me. Trust me, I'm not the least bit worried about some phenomena that arbitrarily is said to occur at three months. Could happen day 3, or never.

Frank