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    Thread: Dream recall issues from using the DEILD method

    1. #1
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      Dream recall issues from using the DEILD method

      We all know what happens to dream recall as soon as you wake up from any dream, let alone a lucid one. I have experienced how much the memories can start to fade even to the point where you question your own recollection and accuracy of the event. This is why a dream journal is important in this regard.

      However, my point is what do you do when you try chaining your (lucid) dreams together? The whole premise of a DEILD attempt, if I understand it correctly (?), is to stay still, eyes closed and try and dwell lightly on your previous (or new) dream. Therefore is it worth sacrificing recall by attempting to DEILD, and thus not journalling in-between, or do you awaken after your lucid dream in order to transcribe it?

      Here is a typical example of mine taken from this morning: dream-chain-dild-deild-x2

      With me, early on I would sense myself 'waking up' after a lucid dream (usually a DILD). I would often 'try' for a DEILD opportunity, however I was always worried about forgetting vital details about the previous dream. I think this ultimately resulted in anxiety and often ended in failure. (Or I simply ran out of REM maybe!)

      In my early days I kept a regular daily dream journal. However I have got really lazy as it took too much time and effort, plus life got in the way. (I know you are supposed to keep one to succeed further). I'm guilty of the cardinal sin where I tend to only write the 'memorable' dreams down nowadays - even this is often several hours later. I don't put any pressure on to have a 'lucid' dream - indeed if it happens, it happens. (I don't lose sleep over it - pun intended).

      I have learnt alot though since. Not just about the journalling side (or lack of), but the importance of forums such as this one. Engaging with like-minded people helps enormously, I feel.

      Disclaimer: I don't claim to be knowledgeable or an 'expert' in DEILD. However from what I did notice that in my above example(s) I was especially tired during the same night after the initial insomnia. I can only say this was a key difference for me, in comparison to previous DEILD (or WILD) attempts.

      When it comes to journalling I know I have a bad habit. We should practice what is preached. Even so, I was wondering how any of you guys approach or deal with these same or similar issues.

      Feel free to share your tips, stories, etc.
      Last edited by Highlander; 03-10-2021 at 05:17 PM.
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    2. #2
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      Hey Highlander, similarly to you, on occasions where I have been able to chain dilds or after a series of FAs, I have found recall decline. I guess in part it may be because of the scene changes or overall interruptions, but also in instances where lucid dreams have gone for too long as well. I can also already hear Sageous making a remark about the general way memory is formed in dreams .

      One thing that has partially helped me was to try to mentally acknowledge key events whilst in the dream without being too focused as to keep the dream going. It may help to say it out loud while still engaging in any dream activity. “FA1 opened drawer”, “FA2 sky”, etc.

      When it comes to recall, as you have mentioned, it helps tremendously to keep those memory muscles strong by using them via journalling and even day events recall. That will make any dreams easier to recall. Also, a good exercise is to focus as much as possible on the association of items in dreams and thoughts - i.e. how things are linked and flow from one thing to another.

      As you get a stronger grip on that invisible thread, you will be able to back track your dreams. A dream one recalls at great length and detail is a good reminder of how the brain weaves all this together - that each REM is really one long dream with an element flowing into one scene then following another element into a different scene and so on. So, yeah look for the white rabbit (the dream thread). Hope this makes sense! Do let us know if you try any variation of the above ideas.
      Last edited by NyxCC; 03-10-2021 at 09:14 PM.
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      Hi NyxCC,

      Good to hear from you again. Thanks for the comprehensive reply.

      You raise some important points about memory and particularly association. The latter is crucial I find. As you rightly say training the memory muscles during the day would help enormously. Really I need to try harder at journalling again as it did help train my brain. I found the dream environment can be very fluid. You are literally bombarded with information which is constantly changing. So your idea of mentally noting key events or shouting certain keywords might help with my later recall. Observing life, rather than just seeing, I guess.

      Over time, I have noticed how my own sleep patterns and habits sort of work. This has helped me to have sporadic lucid dreams. For instance I never could DEILD (or WILD). You are right about how sleep and dreams all link together, rather than be seen as seperate as such.

      I will look out for the white rabbit in my journey.
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      I recently bought a nice voice recorder for about $40- and it helps so much. If I wake enough to know I am awake I say out loud a few simple words that relate to what I was just dreaming and it gets recorded. It does not wake me enough to prevent DEILD and also gives me something to work on during the day. I will listen to what was recorded and try to have it trigger memories of the dream.
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      Thanks for the valuable input Sivason. A voice recorder sounds an excellent idea for helping to journal. I guess there should be no excuse (for me) now, at least?! However I think I definitely would need a lot of practice to get to the point where I did not wake myself up too much (mentally).

      Quote Originally Posted by sivason View Post
      I will listen to what was recorded and try to have it trigger memories of the dream.
      Interestingly enough, I often found (usually thinking about absolutely nothing, or more commonly an accidental, but vague association IWL relating to the earlier dream memory) that several hours later I would experience a 'flashback' of the dream event from previously. Often this would be an important (but nevertheless forgotton) part of the dream scenario, or even a whole dream event. So yes, a voice recorder (or app?) again would come in handy.
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      Quote Originally Posted by sivason View Post
      If I wake enough to know I am awake I say out loud a few simple words that relate to what I was just dreaming and it gets recorded. It does not wake me enough to prevent DEILD
      Sure, I still can deild if open my eyes or move a little, but to voice record and then fall back to deild, it will be too harsh unless I'm a yogi. And yes I can relate that chain of deild can be too much to remember, but not because of the length of the experience but because of the abruptly changes of the environment and the unknown settings, memory tends to be a fluid thing, when I have a long dild/wild I tend to better recall him.

      I have one interesting question though, how we know when we are awakening from dream and go for deild, we are still not in a dream, after all we have an intention to not move or open eyes, but if we are still in the dream this cannot be considered a true deild but more of a dild, what are u think?
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      Interesting. I guess if you do not really wake up it is just extending a collapsing dream and not truly DEILD, but if it works, either way it is good.
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    8. #8
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      I'm a little late to this, as usual; there's not much that I can add to the excellent stuff already posted, but I did have some thoughts, more on the DEILD side:

      First, but maybe not most importantly, I looked at the DEILD account you linked to, and my first thought was that you returned to sleep and dreaming at a moment when your unconscious/dreaming mind had no imagery to offer. I used to call this emerging into NREM, but I'm not so sure anymore, since you were indeed dreaming, so REM was occurring. In any case, the best way to work through this -- and to not wind up fumbling around in the dark -- is to learn to hang onto your last dream. Don't just contemplate it; hold onto some part of it. Keep participating in it, if you can: if you can visualize the dream continuing, all the better, but even just intellectually maintaining the dream plot can be enough to keep your dreaming mind interested in providing interesting schemata. For instance, in the case of your dream, when you realized you were waking up, maybe continue approaching those painted ladies ... maybe start a conversation with the blue lady while staying focused just on her. This could solve two problems for you: first, you will have a dream to which to return, because your focus is prompting your dreaming mind to get back to work; and second, because you are more practically keeping your last dream with you (rather than just contemplating it), you have a much better chance of remembering it later, after your chaining session is done.

      Second, I have a suggestion: If you find yourself waking from a dream, recall ought to be the very last thing on your mind. Don't worry about remembering your last dream; hell, don't worry about anything. Just relax and stay focused on lucidly holding onto your last dream and allow your body to return -- without undo pressure -- to sleep as soon as possible. DEILD's can happen very quickly -- mine generally take a few seconds, for example, usually without ever waking fully -- so there really is no time to try to record your dream. And, as NyxCC suspected I might mention, the very act of focusing on and lucidly returning to your last dream will very likely stamp it firmly enough in your memory that you will recall it enough to record upon waking for good later on (this should be true even if, after returning to sleep and your last dream, you choose to move on to another one). In other words, try to make a successful DEILD your priority, and leave the other stuff (i.e., recall, noticing all that noise you encountered in your third paragraph) out of your focus. The only thing you really need to do during a DEILD is maintain your presence/lucidity and your attachment to the previous dream.


      A couple of specifics, even though I think I already addressed them:

      Quote Originally Posted by Highlander View Post
      However, my point is what do you do when you try chaining your (lucid) dreams together? The whole premise of a DEILD attempt, if I understand it correctly (?), is to stay still, eyes closed and try and dwell lightly on your previous (or new) dream. Therefore is it worth sacrificing recall by attempting to DEILD, and thus not journalling in-between, or do you awaken after your lucid dream in order to transcribe it?
      Sacrifice the recall, definitely. You could be on the cusp a DEILD-chain adventure that could last all morning; do you really want to trash that potential just to remember some shower stalls and painted ladies? Think about it. Eventually, as I mentioned, you will probably learn to recall all the dreams anyway once DEILD just becomes a brief hiccup in the continuity of your overall dream(s).

      With me, early on I would sense myself 'waking up' after a lucid dream (usually a DILD). I would often 'try' for a DEILD opportunity, however I was always worried about forgetting vital details about the previous dream. I think this ultimately resulted in anxiety and often ended in failure. (Or I simply ran out of REM maybe!)
      Your diagnosis is correct, I think, and in making it you've already realized the importance of not worrying about anything during a DEILD. Speaking of keeping worries at bay: try not to be concerned about running out of REM, or missing a REM period. Because dreaming causes REM, and not the other way around, REM will always be present when you are dreaming (with the possible exception of early-stage Delta sleep, but that is another subject). What may be missing, though, is content, as you seem to have experienced already -- because your dreaming mind has left the building. That content can be restored, or rather preserved, by staying focused on your last dream to keep your dreaming mind's engine running.

      In my early days I kept a regular daily dream journal. However I have got really lazy as it took too much time and effort, plus life got in the way. (I know you are supposed to keep one to succeed further). I'm guilty of the cardinal sin where I tend to only write the 'memorable' dreams down nowadays - even this is often several hours later. I don't put any pressure on to have a 'lucid' dream - indeed if it happens, it happens. (I don't lose sleep over it - pun intended).
      That, in my opinion, is a fairly healthy attitude.
      Last edited by Sageous; 03-12-2021 at 10:09 PM.
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    9. #9
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      Hi Sageous,

      Thanks for taking the time and effort with your thorough, concise reply. I hope my answers help cover it. First and foremost, it is really useful to receive such critique from someone like yourself. I guess we are all learning where DEILD is another part of the journey for me.

      I did wonder about the fumbling about part mentioned in my account afterwards. I find it is a very common theme for me to be 'blind' in the bedroom. I guess it is one of my major dreamsigns. The tactile nature of these blind dream scenarios and the touching helps me to keep the dream 'going'. I don't panic and usually wait for the visuals to come back. However I do fall prey to the dreaded FA episodes between the main dreams which act as a big banana skin.

      Note: I have to add a bit of a disclaimer here.
      I'm not really one of the 'superhero' types. (I've got nothing against that type of film/comic stuff though). My lucid dreams tend to have very mundane themes. I generally don't fly about too much, nor visit other worlds as such. (I have been known to go through walls though). Even so, I tend to be bound to the normal physics of waking life body wise and the constraints of my house for some reason. (This is probably due to being familiar with the location/schema). I guess that is why themes such as 'Task of the Month', etc. help push our boundaries further by challenging us mentally by using the faculty of imagination, rather than our normal day to day stored imagery (or other associated senses).

      In regard to that, you rightly identify employing engagement and participation as a solution to continue my main dream(s) further. I totally agree with this. I think there is plenty of scope for development. The one major drawback with me is I get sidetracked really easy. The scenarios can be very fluid and ever changing as we all well know. I usually have to ground myself in the dream early (i.e. stabilise it by touching something) and work from there. The prime visual sense (in lucid dreams) is one I over rely on too much. So engaging in dialogue with a DC (the 'blue lady' example) as you suggest would add another facet or 'depth' to the actual dream. I also need to incubate a theme or a task and signpost (say at WBTB beforehand) otherwise you lose yourself in the dream (worry what to do...) and probably wake up!

      I will bear in mind what you said about recall and making DEILD the overriding priority. The article is a very useful read. In my case, I tend to see the 'noise' as the milestone you mentioned. I do get your point that the noise (et al) should not be the main goal though, but a mere sideshow. And yes, I prefer the term 'dream body' over the OBE type stuff.

      Sageous, the delta/NREM topic you have researched and written looks an interesting read also. I will have to check it out in future.

      Before I finish, it is great to have such insightful replies from you all, so thanks again. I can see there is quite of info for me to digest and try out, however it will be worth it. The one thing I can also take from this discourse is the notion of sharing knowledge and problem solving. For example, it is easy to be blinkered in our own practice (in this case lucid dreaming, etc.) as an individual. I know the current lockdown does not help either. However, as a collective there are different viewpoints which can offer a unique perspective or outlook, which indeed can be easily overlooked (or not even considered) by the individual alone.

      Hopefully I can take this onboard, move forward and learn from it all.
      Last edited by Highlander; 03-12-2021 at 10:13 PM.
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      Hey there!

      I’m glad you opened this topic, Highlander. I couple weeks ago I was wondering whether I should give DEILD a try but just like you I was worried about my dream recall and whether it’s worth risking it. And while I do use a voice recording app (absolutely second anyone who recommends you use them by the way, so much easier than turning on the light and trying to write something I can still read hours later) I thought it might rouse me too much to stand a chance of getting it done. So I haven’t yet bothered to try DEILD but after reading what everyone here had to say I will definitely reconsider. I suppose it’s alright to give it a try now and then and even if you don’t get it done – what does it matter? There is always another chance next night.

      Because dreaming causes REM, and not the other way around, REM will always be present when you are dreaming (with the possible exception of early-stage Delta sleep, but that is another subject). What may be missing, though, is content, as you seem to have experienced already -- because your dreaming mind has left the building. That content can be restored, or rather preserved, by staying focused on your last dream to keep your dreaming mind's engine running.
      Now that is interesting. Thanks for the info, Sageous.
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    11. #11
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      Hi Baldr.

      I'm glad my topic on the DEILD issue helped you out in some way. I think we can all learn from each other in that regard. Hence it is good to see other people's perspectives on DEILD and recall methods generally.

      Yes, certainly give DEILD a go. You have nothing to lose, only to gain. After DILD, I seem more pre-proposed to it in comparison to WILD. I know I have a very slim chance if I don't open my eyes (e.g. eyelids) after a dream (even an 'ordinary' dream). The key is the fine balance if you have to move, etc. It's trying not to 'wake' the brain up too much. Even then (in my case, generally after a lucid dream) occasionally I seem to have no REM period left? (My hypothesis incidentally before anybody flames me!)

      Thanks for your input and I wish you luck with your lucid endeavours.
      Last edited by Highlander; 04-08-2021 at 03:55 PM. Reason: Clarification
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