Thread: Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals -- With Q & A

Sageous, you mentioned within the "timing" module in the WILD DV course that a practioner of yoga nidra (this is sleep yoga I believe) can attempt to WILD right as early as bedtime. Why is this so? I have a book as well as an audio CD on yoga nidra and have heard that it is quite simple to learn so I'll probably give those a try.

Also, have you discovered anything to help resolve the issue of memory when it comes to WILDs?

Lastly, are WILDs at the mercy of your brain chemisty (like DILDs) in order for them to be induced?

Originally Posted by Tsunami1

Sageous, you mentioned within the "timing" module in the WILD DV course that a practioner of yoga nidra (this is sleep yoga I believe) can attempt to WILD right as early as bedtime. Why is this so? I have a book as well as an audio CD on yoga nidra and have heard that it is quite simple to learn so I'll probably give those a try.

I think we're talking about two different sleep yogas. Yoga Nidra, is, I believe, a form of waking-life meditation that produces a deep sleep-like state, and the Sleep Yoga I mention is a Tibetan discipline that strives (among other things) to maintain waking-life self-awareness throughout the sleep cycle. Sleep Yoga is by no means simple, and tends to require a lifetime of work to master (and it still rarely is mastered). I don't know much about Yoga Nidra, but, given that it produces a sensation of deep (delta) sleep without actually causing the body to enter sleep, it might not be totally compatible with LD'ing, which requires you to be asleep. Also, Sleep Yoga is essentially LD'ing, though to a much more advanced degree (indeed, it is the next step after mastering dream yoga).

So, two different things, I think.

Also, have you discovered anything to help resolve the issue of memory when it comes to WILDs?

I'm not actually working on that. WILD is a route taken to become lucid, and I am concerned about accessing memory after becoming lucid. So it is actually an issue for WILD and DILD alike. And yes, though WILD would seem to be a route to LD'ing where you retain access to memory, I'm not sure it is; you will retain self-awareness throughout your successful WILD dive, but I believe memory will still be rendered inaccessible after you fall asleep unless you make an extra effort to hang onto it.

I recently started a thread about memory, if you are interested.

To answer your question, though, I am still working on memory... it seems to be the final hurdle to achieving my LD'ing goals, and a high one at that (especially as the years continue to race by). No discoveries yet, but I'm still looking.

Lastly, are WILDs at the mercy of your brain chemistry (like DILDs) in order for them to be induced?

Not so much "at the mercy of" as "in witness of" your brain chemistry, I think. You are still falling asleep when you WILD, so the natural bodily changes that happen whenever you fall asleep will still occur. Part of successful WILD dive, I think, is enduring the all the chemical changes during the natural progression to sleep.

Also, I do not believe that DILD's are any more at the mercy of brain chemistry than WILD's. In fact, DILD's might even be less influenced by natural sleep functions than WILD's, because all the physical changes have already occurred when it is time to DILD, so the only transition witnessed is a cognitive one as you regain your self-awareness.

Sageous, i think i can ask a question here, right ?

My question is: is it easier* to WILD with a light hearted attitude, like the simple fact of waking up at night by an alarm and trying our best not to fall asleep immediately?

*By easier i am comparing with a more effortful approach of course, the one i usually apply when i try to WILD which is basically: try to remain aware and not fall asleep too rapidly

^^ It is easier to do anything, WILD included, with a light-hearted attitude, Vagaltone. You also can certainly make powerful efforts while still light of heart, I think. Also, light-hearted to me does not equal less work, just a better attitude toward the work.

The second part of your question confused me a bit: what does "the simple fact of waking up at night by an alarm and trying our best not to fall asleep immediately" have to do with a light-hearted attitude? I for one would not feel very light-hearted if pulled from sleep by an alarm, and then be obliged to stay awake while my entire physical being just wants to go back to sleep. If anything, a light-hearted attitude for WILD might be generated more easily by waking up naturally, and doing a WBTB without having to try my best not to fall asleep immediately. Perhaps you meant that using the alarm and doing nothing more than simply staying awake would be easier (it isn't. BTW, and is likely less effective). Did something get lost in translation?

I typed the last post while i was leaving my office and i think i could have explained it better.

Yes, it is more light hearted to wake up naturally than by alarm, although it requires some training to notice natural awakenings and remember to WILD. But yeah, i meant nothing more than staying awake, and resisting the sleepiness, probably by using some uncomfortable or unusual position. Instead of wanting to fall asleep and remain aware, just wanting not to fall asleep.

^^ Okay, I think I get it now. I think I also very briefly answered your question earlier when I parenthetically said that doing this really isn't easier, and likely less effective.

There is a purpose, with WILD, to getting up, doing a WBTB, and then setting about the business of getting your mind in the right place, gathering your self-awareness, and really focusing on the upcoming dream. You must be somewhat awake to do these things, and to maintain these things throughout the return to sleep. Just waking up and getting right to it without at least a short pause to properly reunite with your waking world (though while still staying at least a little sleepy and dreamy, of course!) will very likely lead to you simply going back to sleep, regardless of the position you choose... resisting sleepiness while you are still mostly asleep is a difficult task at best!

I have a feeling that the mental discipline you must summon to do this "easier" method successfully will require just as much work as the apparently less easy WBTB WILD dive.

That said, if you find that it works for you, I would be glad to be proven wrong, because you will be saving yourself much time. I have tried this myself, many times, with minimal success, BTW.

That said, if you can manage somehow to do without the alarm clock and the sitting up part, what you are describing is very close to a DEILD from a NLD. That is certainly doable, though still difficult, because you don't know you are waking up as you would coming out of a LD. Still, once you have some success with it, it will definitely be easier than a "classic" WILD... I do these often, BTW.

I hope that helped, and that it had something to do with what you were asking. If not, try me again; I'll get it eventually!

Thank you, Sageous. Yes, i think you understood my point.

Btw, last night, i practiced like i said (which is kind of difficult to put into words*) at bedtime and after a natural awakening and i remember a semilucid and a very short lucid one ( in which i had a clone of myself, and while i was playing with this clone, it reminded me of your recent memory thread and i thought to myself « playing with a clone of myself is a good way to remember i am dreaming» ). And that´s something i migh post in your thread. ( One way to remember your waking life body, might be to put it next to you in your dream ! What do you think? )

So, yeah i am excited to explore this further. I haven´t had much success with conventional WILD, so at lest this can´t hurt much (unless i lose some sleep).

*My mindset is close to this: i go to bed or return to sleep not with the intention to fall asleep. Of course, if i am sleepy enough i end up falling asleep, but i wonder if the intention to remain awake (or better: aware, as i don´t want to wake up ) goes into the sleep in some way...It is perhaps very close to a WILD dive, but there´s some different reaxed and carefree mindset i can´t explain properly. Perhaps my intention to remain awake translates into an intention to remain aware. Idk, let's see if i can succeed.

That's true, it can't hurt at all to keep trying this. What you describe does sound a bit like a WILD "lite," or perhaps DEILD "plus," BTW; nothing wrong with that, of course, if it works for you! I hope you'll post your successes in the WILD What Happened? thread...maybe you're on to something!

Originally Posted by VagalTone

One way to remember your waking life body, might be to put it next to you in your dream ! What do you think?

That could work, though it might get a bit confusing after a time.

Sageous, this thread is packed to the brim with information! I'm sure this question has already been answered, please excuse my laziness in not reading the entire thing.

What I'm wondering about is the correlation between how you wake for a WBTB (alarm vs. natural) and how long you stay awake for. It seems to me that if I set an alarm for the start of an REM portion of my sleep cycle then all I need to do is wake up, go to the washroom, and go back to sleep while maintaining my self-awareness. If I wake up naturally, on the other hand, I'm already at the end of this REM segment of sleep. I need to stay awake for 30-40 minutes whatever so that when I go back to sleep I'm entering REM.

Is this the case? If it were the case, would a hybrid technique of some sort help with timing? Perhaps nature wake-up -> set alarm for 40 minutes later -> go back to sleep/wake up in 40 minutes -> Washroom -> WILD? Or am I just over thinking all of this?

^^ I think you my indeed be over-thinking all this, BrotherGoose.

I guess the simple way to look at the timing of WBTB is this: If you do a WBTB late in your sleep cycle (after, say, 5 hrs of sleep), your REM periods will be close enough together that waking naturally will only mean a short wait to the next period -- and that short wait includes not only getting up for a few minutes, but also the time it takes to get back to sleep. So even a short WBTB (a ten -minute minimum up time is probably as short as you should go, if you wish to properly gather some waking-life self-awareness -- which is the goal of the technique), late in your sleep cycle, after a non-alarm awakening, will likely have a REM period just over the horizon.

Also, I don't generally recommend using an alarm clock for WBTB, because alarms have a tendency to wake you up too much, triggering your reticular system in a way that might end your sleep cycle for the night, making getting back to sleep more difficult, causing you to lose that "dreamy" feeling to which you should hold during WBTB, and perhaps even postponing the next REM period. Alarms are really not the way to go... I believe this is true even if you can possibly know exactly when your REM periods come and go, BTW, though if you are able to pinpoint REM, perhaps a "gentle" alarm signal might help.

That hybrid wake-up system you described is likely unnecessary, if you are doing WBTB's after 5 or more hours' sleep, especially because I'm pretty sure you will not have to wait 40 minutes for your next REM period. Even if you did have a 40-minute wait, keep in mind that you still have to get up, do your business/hang out for a few minutes, go back to bed, and get back to sleep, which consumes quite a bit of time -- you might find that 40 minutes used up long before you finally get back to sleep! So no need to go back to sleep and wake up later, which might be a bit of distraction anyway...also, keep in mind that you still have to go back to sleep after that second wake-up, which also takes time, and might cause you to be awake straight through your next sleep cycle!

tl;dr: Late-cycle WBTB's are generally fairly effective tools for gathering your self-awareness and preparing for a WILD with enough time to get back to sleep as your next REM period approaches, so it might be okay to stick with them. Also, REM periods are pretty close together late in the sleep cycle, so the wait for the next period will likely not be a long one.

@BrotherGoose; There's a very forgivable misunderstanding in your post that I see literally everywhere, namely that you can "time" your sleep to "go directly into REM". This rant isn't aimed at you, but I just want it to go on record: you will always pass through NREM every time you fall asleep

The reason for WBTB is to get the abyss of stage 3 NREM (delta sleep out of the way) so that the transition through sleep is relatively smooth.

To capitulate:

Sleep at bedtime = Stage 1 (hypnagogia) -> Stage 2 (sense dampening, maybe vibrations, other weird shit) -> Stage 3 (the void, possible to remain aware through the practice of sleep yoga) -> Stage 2 (again) -> REM

Sleep at WBTB = Stage 1 -> Stage 2 -> REM

Maybe when going back to sleep in the latest sleep cycles the stage 2 may be only 5 minutes or so (giving rise to the illusion of passing straight into REM and the conflation of NREM phenomena and sleep paralysis thereby).

See also: WILD Progression Outline - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

^^ Well said, Ctharlhie; thank you for clarifying... because God knows I didn't!

Thank you for clarifying, both of you! This is starting to make a lot more sense. I'm thinking that my current issue may be that I'm not allowing myself to wake-up enough during my WBTB's. I've tried meditating in the time a couple times and haven't enjoyed how scattered my concentration is. Perhaps I will try reading tonight. Would turning on a light to do so be detrimental to the process (curently I use only a red headlight to take notes in the night as I find it wakes me up less).

Ctharlie: Your link, at the bottom, mentions that sleep disorders may appear between vibrations in the sleep cycle progression. Could you elaborate on that?

I had a somewhat unique (so far) experience while trying to WILD last night. Will post in experience thread.

^^ Turning on a light is probably okay, BrotherGoose; keep your head in a dreamy place, and a little extra light shouldn't be a problem.

Originally Posted by BrotherGoose

Ctharlie: Your link, at the bottom, mentions that sleep disorders may appear between vibrations in the sleep cycle progression. Could you elaborate on that?

I wouldn't worry about that particular piece of speculation, just proceed on the presumption you don't have any sleep disorders.

Sageous, just on the note of intent in LD’ing:

I see that intention is crucial and after reading more about it, I would think of it as being the tool that gets your daytime self-awareness into the dream state.

So what I’ve started doing is this:

Every night, I try my best to know I will LD. I try to push all doubts aside and think that it is definitely going to happen, and I also think about what I will do when I become lucid, and all I’ve got to do in the meantime is fall asleep.

^^Now I would have thought that this was an excellent approach, but the thing is, I’ve been doing this for a while now, but I haven’t had any LD’s. I just had one dream where I questioned whether or not I was dreaming, but apart from that, all just memorable NLDs.

I still think that intention might be my main problem though. I’ve had LD’s on and off (about one a month for the last two years), which means that I am most likely practicing some level of self-awareness; as you said before it is literally impossible to LD without self-awareness. I also practice RC’s everyday (out of interest, not habit ). Also, memory only comes into play if you’re working on your self-awareness and you’ve got your intention in place.

So I’m not really sure. I’ve LD’ed with strong intention like this before (MILD), even in the absence of other daytime work, so I’d be interested to know your opinion, Sageous. Do you think there’s a reason that the approach I’ve listed (in blue) doesn’t seem to be working? Could it be that your belief in LD ability actually needs to be genuine?

Thanks for your time.

I think the approach your listed is a fine one, Eamo, but it cannot stand alone.

Intention tends to work best when it is intention set based on expectations that you have been building during the day. (I wonder, BTW, if that intention you set for that MILD was coupled with powerful expectation). So yes, set your intention sincerely at bedtime, but be sure that intention relates somehow to what you've been thinking about all day, and that the rest of your day work is still done, especially in the self-awareness (sounds like you're doing that, though, which is good), and expectations department (you must know you will LD all day as well). And yes, make sure that intention is genuine.

Additionally, keep in mind that it might take your dreaming mind a little while to catch on to what you are doing when setting intention. I suggest that you try a few more times before you decide that setting intention isn't worth doing.

Finally, if setting intention worked with your MILD attempt (which I'm not sure you can do without day-work, BTW), why not keep doing MILD's?

I guess the bottom line here is that just setting intention, even when that intention is genuine, is probably not enough to induce a LD... else there would not be very many other LD methods out there, because setting intention is very easy. Go ahead and set your intention, but do the rest as well.

Thanks, Sageous. That’s good advice

Yes thinking back on it, I think that MILD was helped along by daytime expectation. I remember reading a tutorial on it the previous day and being confident that I could make it work that night if I did it correctly. I thought about goals etc. that I could do if I could do something as simple as make MILD work just once. So yes I think there was a lot of expectation to augment it.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Finally, if setting intention worked with your MILD attempt (which I'm not sure you can do without day-work, BTW), why not keep doing MILD's?

That does make sense actually, but:

I was under the impression that MILD and setting intention at night were the same thing, both existing as “MILD activity”, where the objective was to have some kind of intention in mind that you would LD sometime during the night.

Of the MILD’s that did work for me, I did something very similar to that procedure I mentioned, of trying to know I would LD later, as well as having some goals in mind. I think the only distinguishing factor was that when I succeeded with the MILD’s, (including that one I mentioned above) I focused more on “prospective memory” as per the tutorials, like thinking “I will remember to realize I’m dreaming”, and kept it in mind until falling asleep. But it resulted in an outright realization (obvious it was a dream), so I’m not sure where prospective memory fits into it because I had no need to remember to RC or notice a dream sign etc. Do you think there’s really much difference between setting intent at night and MILD? I think I’m a bit confused about them.

Also, Eamo, when are you trying to intend? Is it at bedtime? or just before entering a dream? Note that it is written into the original MILD guide that the time of application is during nighttime awakenings. Other than that, it seems like you're doing everything right, just keep practising.

Check out Sensei's lucid living podcast series, in them he addresses your basic concerns about intent.

Think of setting intention, Eamo, as a confirmation of all your MILD mental prep. In other words, setting intention isn't the only thing you do in MILD; just the last thing.

MILD is indeed all about prospective memory. Setting intention can aid the triggering of that prospective memory, but again, it is simply a unit of the whole MILD process, and not a process unto itself.

So: in a sense there is a real difference between setting intention at night and MILD, in that setting intention is a part of MILD, but not the whole thing.

Ctharlhie:

Yes I would often use this type of intention first thing at night when first going to bed. I’ve never really used it to the same intensity during awakenings or intervals (usually due to tiredness or having to get up early), but I can definitely see the benefit. Yes I guess I just need to keep practicing, as you say (as well as with the awakenings ). I’ll be sure to check out those podcasts.

Sageous:

Thanks for clarifying. Actually the prospective memory element does make sense. Having strong intention is essential, but the prospective memory aspect of MILD perhaps really defines its technique, and makes it “work” in a sense.

Thanks, guys.

Sageous,

I wonder if I could get your opinion on a self-awareness practice I’ve been trying out. What I’ve been doing for the last few days is focusing on my breathing as a way to avoid “zoning out” too often. It was reasonably easy to maintain at first, but when I started doing other activities like reading, daydreaming, talking to people etc. it became much more difficult (not impossible, but it just become more secondary), and I had to make an effort not to lose it entirely. It was challenging, but in the time I’ve been doing this, I do feel much less on “auto-pilot” and I’ve noticed that my ability to recognize when my mind has drifted and my ability to “snap back” to my breathing has improved. I think I’ve made some good progress with it and I hope it would be worth continuing. I’m just wondering if this is a good approach though; I was just unsure about it as from what I hear there’s probably a lot to self-awareness, which got me thinking that maybe I should be focusing on other things as well, rather than just one “focus point”. That could be wrong, but I guess I was just looking for your opinion on it. Thanks in advance.

^^ That is an excellent practice, Eamo; in fact, I think one of the LD-related yoga practices (Vipassanā, I believe) uses attention to breath in just that manner. It can be difficult to successfully adapt to your waking-life routines, though, just as it can be difficult to prevent it from becoming another habit that you basically ignore. So give yourself some time to make the practice work for you, and don't worry about lapses.

Keep in mind also that attention to breath should be limited to a role as a sort of anchor for your mind during the day; try not to focus on it too much, which runs the risk of your breathing becoming the center of your experience and work instead of your Self... I think you already know that, but I figured it would be worth mentioning.

Again, this breathing exercise is only an aid to keeping your mind in a place that allows you opportunity to develop your self-awareness; you still must do the other things (like RRC's) to actually develop it. In other words, minding your breathing should not be your only focus point; indeed, it should not be a focus point at all, but an aid to maintaining your actual focus point, which is developing self-awareness.

So: Yes, attention to breath is an excellent practice, and probably the only focusing tool or mental anchor you will need. But, other than opening more opportunities to work on it, attention to breath does nothing for self-awareness on its own; you still must do the other stuff.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ That is an excellent practice, Eamo; in fact, I think one of the LD-related yoga practices (Vipassanā, I believe) uses attention to breath in just that manner. It can be difficult to successfully adapt to your waking-life routines, though, just as it can be difficult to prevent it from becoming another habit that you basically ignore. So give yourself some time to make the practice work for you, and don't worry about lapses.

Good to know! Thx for the advice. Yes this can be quite difficult to do (especially for long periods of time), but, it’s such a well-known truth that to be lucid in dreams you have to be lucid in waking life as well (i.e. not go through each day on auto-pilot or in zombie mode). It can be very challenging to not let your mind wander etc. and it feels very difficult and unnatural, but I’m determined to stick with it in the hope that it will make LD’ing much easier and more accessible, due to the new “heightened” level of self-awareness you would acquire from this, even though it may take some time and effort before it becomes second nature (especially near-constantly).

Originally Posted by Sageous

Again, this breathing exercise is only an aid to keeping your mind in a place that allows you opportunity to develop your self-awareness; you still must do the other things (like RRC's) to actually develop it.

I can see what you mean about having a good opportunity to build self-awareness from something like this, however, I don’t know if I would call myself a complete “beginner” as such to self-awareness. I do feel like I am developing self-awareness in a more general, long-term sense (such as thinking about how I affect others/ the environment etc. which I find myself doing quite a bit), and I think I would see this as a separate endeavor to boosting self-awareness in more direct/ immediate terms for the purposes of LD’ing. The main reason I’ve decided to take the approach I’ve mentioned was to help diminish that “auto-pilot” mentality to make recognizing the dream state easier, with the assumption that I would also unlock the more broader sense of self I may have accumulated. I recall you mentioning once that although someone may have developed a good sense of self in their lifetime, it won’t be terribly helpful to immediate LD’ing goals and work (although a mature sense of SA will help to become lucid), so I was hoping that the approach I’ve listed would help to heighten my self-awareness enough to be able to become lucid easier in the more immediate context, but I would leave the “developing” of SA simply to what I’ve been doing all along. Hopefully this question isn’t too elaborate , but do you think the breathing approach I've mentioned would work fine for the more immediate LD’ing work, like induction, recall etc. and could work in concert with other (perhaps more established) self-awareness practices?

Thanks again.