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    Thread: Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals -- With Q & A

    1. #551
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      Hi,

      I just PMed Sageous some questions, as it is about self-awareness, here it is + answer:

      Understanding Self Awareness (vs. Self Consciousness)

      Hi Sageous,

      I recently dug into many interesting DV Threads and found your thread distincting self awareness and awareness as defined by King Yoshi. I read all of it and on a flat level or in other words think I roughly understand it, but not fully, no 'click'

      So firstly, here are the wikipedia articles defining self awareness and consciousness:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-consciousness

      From my understanding, your description would be self-consciousness here, wouldnt it? Although I am not sure...

      You also wrote that self awareness is s state of mind and not a technique, and i am not sure if this was from you or someone else, "Continously knowing that one is not the center of the universe".

      I am trying to understand this because i want to know what that feeling that I need to cultivate is. (Please dont take 'need' to literally, just want to understand what essentially lucidity is and then just be lucid). i know this appears paradoxical, because everybody knows what being lucid is like if he just tunes into the present moment, but I can't grasp it and I want to grasp it ^^ because I would like to know if you mean a certain part of it or maybe the present moment actually is not equal to lucidity, because lucidity presumes knowing that I am dreaming.

      Also This would seem somewhat contradicting, because (at least how I understand it) the present moment feeling is non-dual and does not provide that knowing that I influence reality and it influences me.
      Then is it something more like viewing/knowing that there is something behind me, so to say, kind of a third person perspective, but not "perspective" in the sense of viewing oneself in third person, but rather knowing oneself in third person perspective which objectifies the stream of influence of the surroundings on me and the other way around?
      I could imagine this as an all day state of awareness, but dont directly understand how this would support lucidity.

      Or is all of this to complicated and that self-awareness is equal to mindfulness (being aware of what i am doing in this moment and putting full focus on it)?. At least I'd understand, why this would support lucidity.

      Thx for reading!

      btw, if you want I can also post this message on the thread so you can answer publicly.
      btw2, do you make a difference between consciousness and awareness, if so, which?

      ---
      Re: Understanding Self Awareness (vs. Self Consciousness)

      Hi InvisibleO, and welcome to DV's!

      This would have been a great set of questions to ask on my fundamentals thread; I like to see interesting stuff like this be available to other dreamers. Anyway, I only have a minute (normal for me), so the best I can do is some short answers to your assorted questions.

      Here we go:

      I'll answer the last question first:
      Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleO
      Or is all of this to complicated and that self-awareness is equal to mindfulness (being aware of what i am doing in this moment and putting full focus on it)?. At least I'd understand, why this would support lucidity.
      Yes, you may indeed be over-complicating things; for me it really is that simple: self-awareness = presence in the moment = mindfulness = lucidity. In the end, it's all the same thing.

      So firstly, here are the wikipedia articles defining self awareness and consciousness:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-consciousness

      From my understanding, your description would be self-consciousness here, wouldnt it? Although I am not sure...
      Categorically not! Though my idea of self-awareness might be similar to the original meaning of self-consciousness (as noted in the wikipedia entry), it is almost the opposite of the modern description. In fact, a self-aware person would care little about things like "how others might perceive one's appearance or one's actions," because he would understand that such surface things are meaningless. As I think I said somewhere, a self-aware person will certainly have a better understanding of his relationships with others, and his effect on others, etc., but that is very different from being concerned about one's appearance or what others think of him.

      BTW, I also don't much like the entry for self-awareness, either, but it is much closer to my vision of the state.

      You also wrote that self awareness is s state of mind and not a technique, and i am not sure if this was from you or someone else, "Continously knowing that one is not the center of the universe".
      I don't remember making that quote, but it makes sense -- but keep in mind that that is an aspect of self-awareness, perhaps a side-effect of a sort, and not the whole thing: a self-aware person will know she is not the center of the universe, without ever giving the concept a thought.

      I am trying to understand this because i want to know what that feeling that I need to cultivate is. (Please dont take 'need' to literally, just want to understand what essentially lucidity is and then just be lucid). i know this appears paradoxical, because everybody knows what being lucid is like if he just tunes into the present moment, but I can't grasp it and I want to grasp it ^^ because I would like to know if you mean a certain part of it or maybe the present moment actually is not equal to lucidity, because lucidity presumes knowing that I am dreaming.
      No, being present in the moment does indeed equal lucidity; it really is that simple. Here's a minor complication for you to consider, though: just as people, most of them, are awake all day -- and innately know they are awake -- without a hint of self-awareness, just knowing you are dreaming does not always, in my mind, equal lucidity. There really needs to be a step up, consciously, and that step is gathering self-awareness.

      Also This would seem somewhat contradicting, because (at least how I understand it) the present moment feeling is non-dual and does not provide that knowing that I influence reality and it influences me.
      Then is it something more like viewing/knowing that there is something behind me, so to say, kind of a third person perspective, but not "perspective" in the sense of viewing oneself in third person, but rather knowing oneself in third person perspective which objectifies the stream of influence of the surroundings on me and the other way around?
      I could imagine this as an all day state of awareness, but dont directly understand how this would support lucidity.
      I'm not sure I understand this bit, but it does seem contradictory to self-awareness, since there should be no "third person" sort of perspective, as that does indeed diminish your sense of self in a decidedly, to me, non-dual manner. This would run even more contradictory during a dream, where, regardless of perspective, a self-aware person knows that everything is him, and a third-person perspective would only diminish the experience.

      btw, if you want I can also post this message on the thread so you can answer publicly.
      btw2, do you make a difference between consciousness and awareness, if so, which?
      I wish I had read this first! Tell you what: if you wish to, feel free to cut and paste all this to the fundamentals thread, and feel free of course to ask any other questions there.

      Finally: I make no distinction at all between consciousness and awareness, because to me they are the same thing. I do think that self-awareness, though, is quite different... okay, not different, because it's all consciousness, in the end, but self-awareness is a higher state of consciousness, one that includes not only simple awareness but also awareness that there is a "you" present in the moment, interacting with reality.

      Okay, out of time. I hope some of that made sense, and we'll see you around the forum!

      Best of Dreams,

      Sageous
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    2. #552
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      the thing I'm working on now is something I'm calling a "Trinity Engine." What I do is eliminate the dream, set my presence (I never have a dream body in high-level Lucids) on a simple plane, and try to create before me an assemblage of three pieces, one representing my body, one my mind, and one my soul. Once the engine is assembled, I hope to have before me a metaphor that will allow me to communicate with the three facets of my being all at the same time. Sounds simple, right? I've been trying to do this for years now, and can't even get the simple plane to appear, much less conjure the three pieces... For reasons I cannot explain, this is amazingly difficult, like I've got a mental block or something. Hey, you asked!
      I'm new to LDing, and came across this form in my research. This post sparked my curiosity. Did you ever complete this "trinity engine" or did you stop trying? if so why?
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    3. #553
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      Welcome to DreamViews, Game Dungeon!

      My trinity engine is up and running, and has even received a bunch of modifications. I still have trouble getting it to do what I'd originally hoped it to do, and visualizing it still remains elusive (I've learned to live without "seeing" it, but simply "knowing" it is there), but I haven't given up yet, and likely won't anytime soon; some things are worth the struggle!
      Last edited by Sageous; 05-29-2021 at 03:47 PM.

    4. #554
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      My trinity engine is up and running, and has even received a bunch of modifications. I still have trouble getting it to do what I'd originally hoped it to do, and visualizing it still remains elusive (I've learned to live without "seeing" it, but simply "knowing" it is there), but I haven't given up yet, and likely won't anytime soon; some things are worth the struggle!
      Is there anything you have learned from it that you willing to share? If not I understand as it must be quite personal. You said some things are worth the struggle, has it proved its worth yet?

      Thanks for the response .

    5. #555
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      Yeah, I think it would be difficult to share what I've learned so far, both because it is quite personal/difficult to describe without sounding crazy, and I'm not sure my work quite lines up with these forums [and yes, Shadowofwind, if you're still reading these things, that was the kind of "mystic dodge" that we both hate -- go figure].

      Has it proved its worth yet? No, not even close, but I'm given enough good days and subtle hints that inspire me to keep the engine turning.

    6. #556
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Yeah, I think it would be difficult to share what I've learned so far, both because it is quite personal/difficult to describe without sounding crazy, and I'm not sure my work quite lines up with these forums [and yes, Shadowofwind, if you're still reading these things, that was the kind of "mystic dodge" that we both hate -- go figure].

      Has it proved its worth yet? No, not even close, but I'm given enough good days and subtle hints that inspire me to keep the engine turning.
      Understandable, thanks for the reply

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