• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Page 23 of 23 FirstFirst ... 13 21 22 23
    Results 551 to 557 of 557
    Like Tree660Likes

    Thread: Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals -- With Q & A

    1. #551
      Member
      Join Date
      Apr 2021
      Posts
      15
      Likes
      7
      Hi,

      I just PMed Sageous some questions, as it is about self-awareness, here it is + answer:

      Understanding Self Awareness (vs. Self Consciousness)

      Hi Sageous,

      I recently dug into many interesting DV Threads and found your thread distincting self awareness and awareness as defined by King Yoshi. I read all of it and on a flat level or in other words think I roughly understand it, but not fully, no 'click'

      So firstly, here are the wikipedia articles defining self awareness and consciousness:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-consciousness

      From my understanding, your description would be self-consciousness here, wouldnt it? Although I am not sure...

      You also wrote that self awareness is s state of mind and not a technique, and i am not sure if this was from you or someone else, "Continously knowing that one is not the center of the universe".

      I am trying to understand this because i want to know what that feeling that I need to cultivate is. (Please dont take 'need' to literally, just want to understand what essentially lucidity is and then just be lucid). i know this appears paradoxical, because everybody knows what being lucid is like if he just tunes into the present moment, but I can't grasp it and I want to grasp it ^^ because I would like to know if you mean a certain part of it or maybe the present moment actually is not equal to lucidity, because lucidity presumes knowing that I am dreaming.

      Also This would seem somewhat contradicting, because (at least how I understand it) the present moment feeling is non-dual and does not provide that knowing that I influence reality and it influences me.
      Then is it something more like viewing/knowing that there is something behind me, so to say, kind of a third person perspective, but not "perspective" in the sense of viewing oneself in third person, but rather knowing oneself in third person perspective which objectifies the stream of influence of the surroundings on me and the other way around?
      I could imagine this as an all day state of awareness, but dont directly understand how this would support lucidity.

      Or is all of this to complicated and that self-awareness is equal to mindfulness (being aware of what i am doing in this moment and putting full focus on it)?. At least I'd understand, why this would support lucidity.

      Thx for reading!

      btw, if you want I can also post this message on the thread so you can answer publicly.
      btw2, do you make a difference between consciousness and awareness, if so, which?

      ---
      Re: Understanding Self Awareness (vs. Self Consciousness)

      Hi InvisibleO, and welcome to DV's!

      This would have been a great set of questions to ask on my fundamentals thread; I like to see interesting stuff like this be available to other dreamers. Anyway, I only have a minute (normal for me), so the best I can do is some short answers to your assorted questions.

      Here we go:

      I'll answer the last question first:
      Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleO
      Or is all of this to complicated and that self-awareness is equal to mindfulness (being aware of what i am doing in this moment and putting full focus on it)?. At least I'd understand, why this would support lucidity.
      Yes, you may indeed be over-complicating things; for me it really is that simple: self-awareness = presence in the moment = mindfulness = lucidity. In the end, it's all the same thing.

      So firstly, here are the wikipedia articles defining self awareness and consciousness:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-consciousness

      From my understanding, your description would be self-consciousness here, wouldnt it? Although I am not sure...
      Categorically not! Though my idea of self-awareness might be similar to the original meaning of self-consciousness (as noted in the wikipedia entry), it is almost the opposite of the modern description. In fact, a self-aware person would care little about things like "how others might perceive one's appearance or one's actions," because he would understand that such surface things are meaningless. As I think I said somewhere, a self-aware person will certainly have a better understanding of his relationships with others, and his effect on others, etc., but that is very different from being concerned about one's appearance or what others think of him.

      BTW, I also don't much like the entry for self-awareness, either, but it is much closer to my vision of the state.

      You also wrote that self awareness is s state of mind and not a technique, and i am not sure if this was from you or someone else, "Continously knowing that one is not the center of the universe".
      I don't remember making that quote, but it makes sense -- but keep in mind that that is an aspect of self-awareness, perhaps a side-effect of a sort, and not the whole thing: a self-aware person will know she is not the center of the universe, without ever giving the concept a thought.

      I am trying to understand this because i want to know what that feeling that I need to cultivate is. (Please dont take 'need' to literally, just want to understand what essentially lucidity is and then just be lucid). i know this appears paradoxical, because everybody knows what being lucid is like if he just tunes into the present moment, but I can't grasp it and I want to grasp it ^^ because I would like to know if you mean a certain part of it or maybe the present moment actually is not equal to lucidity, because lucidity presumes knowing that I am dreaming.
      No, being present in the moment does indeed equal lucidity; it really is that simple. Here's a minor complication for you to consider, though: just as people, most of them, are awake all day -- and innately know they are awake -- without a hint of self-awareness, just knowing you are dreaming does not always, in my mind, equal lucidity. There really needs to be a step up, consciously, and that step is gathering self-awareness.

      Also This would seem somewhat contradicting, because (at least how I understand it) the present moment feeling is non-dual and does not provide that knowing that I influence reality and it influences me.
      Then is it something more like viewing/knowing that there is something behind me, so to say, kind of a third person perspective, but not "perspective" in the sense of viewing oneself in third person, but rather knowing oneself in third person perspective which objectifies the stream of influence of the surroundings on me and the other way around?
      I could imagine this as an all day state of awareness, but dont directly understand how this would support lucidity.
      I'm not sure I understand this bit, but it does seem contradictory to self-awareness, since there should be no "third person" sort of perspective, as that does indeed diminish your sense of self in a decidedly, to me, non-dual manner. This would run even more contradictory during a dream, where, regardless of perspective, a self-aware person knows that everything is him, and a third-person perspective would only diminish the experience.

      btw, if you want I can also post this message on the thread so you can answer publicly.
      btw2, do you make a difference between consciousness and awareness, if so, which?
      I wish I had read this first! Tell you what: if you wish to, feel free to cut and paste all this to the fundamentals thread, and feel free of course to ask any other questions there.

      Finally: I make no distinction at all between consciousness and awareness, because to me they are the same thing. I do think that self-awareness, though, is quite different... okay, not different, because it's all consciousness, in the end, but self-awareness is a higher state of consciousness, one that includes not only simple awareness but also awareness that there is a "you" present in the moment, interacting with reality.

      Okay, out of time. I hope some of that made sense, and we'll see you around the forum!

      Best of Dreams,

      Sageous
      Sageous likes this.

    2. #552
      Lurker
      Join Date
      May 2021
      Posts
      3
      Likes
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      the thing I'm working on now is something I'm calling a "Trinity Engine." What I do is eliminate the dream, set my presence (I never have a dream body in high-level Lucids) on a simple plane, and try to create before me an assemblage of three pieces, one representing my body, one my mind, and one my soul. Once the engine is assembled, I hope to have before me a metaphor that will allow me to communicate with the three facets of my being all at the same time. Sounds simple, right? I've been trying to do this for years now, and can't even get the simple plane to appear, much less conjure the three pieces... For reasons I cannot explain, this is amazingly difficult, like I've got a mental block or something. Hey, you asked!
      I'm new to LDing, and came across this form in my research. This post sparked my curiosity. Did you ever complete this "trinity engine" or did you stop trying? if so why?
      Sivason likes this.

    3. #553
      high mileage oneironaut Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Stickie King Populated Wall Referrer Silver 10000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class 5000 Hall Points
      Sageous's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2011
      LD Count
      40 + Yrs' Worth
      Gender
      Location
      Here & Now
      Posts
      5,018
      Likes
      7161
      Welcome to DreamViews, Game Dungeon!

      My trinity engine is up and running, and has even received a bunch of modifications. I still have trouble getting it to do what I'd originally hoped it to do, and visualizing it still remains elusive (I've learned to live without "seeing" it, but simply "knowing" it is there), but I haven't given up yet, and likely won't anytime soon; some things are worth the struggle!
      Last edited by Sageous; 05-29-2021 at 03:47 PM.

    4. #554
      Lurker
      Join Date
      May 2021
      Posts
      3
      Likes
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      My trinity engine is up and running, and has even received a bunch of modifications. I still have trouble getting it to do what I'd originally hoped it to do, and visualizing it still remains elusive (I've learned to live without "seeing" it, but simply "knowing" it is there), but I haven't given up yet, and likely won't anytime soon; some things are worth the struggle!
      Is there anything you have learned from it that you willing to share? If not I understand as it must be quite personal. You said some things are worth the struggle, has it proved its worth yet?

      Thanks for the response .

    5. #555
      high mileage oneironaut Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Stickie King Populated Wall Referrer Silver 10000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class 5000 Hall Points
      Sageous's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2011
      LD Count
      40 + Yrs' Worth
      Gender
      Location
      Here & Now
      Posts
      5,018
      Likes
      7161
      Yeah, I think it would be difficult to share what I've learned so far, both because it is quite personal/difficult to describe without sounding crazy, and I'm not sure my work quite lines up with these forums [and yes, Shadowofwind, if you're still reading these things, that was the kind of "mystic dodge" that we both hate -- go figure].

      Has it proved its worth yet? No, not even close, but I'm given enough good days and subtle hints that inspire me to keep the engine turning.

    6. #556
      Lurker
      Join Date
      May 2021
      Posts
      3
      Likes
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Yeah, I think it would be difficult to share what I've learned so far, both because it is quite personal/difficult to describe without sounding crazy, and I'm not sure my work quite lines up with these forums [and yes, Shadowofwind, if you're still reading these things, that was the kind of "mystic dodge" that we both hate -- go figure].

      Has it proved its worth yet? No, not even close, but I'm given enough good days and subtle hints that inspire me to keep the engine turning.
      Understandable, thanks for the reply

    7. #557
      armadillo dreamer Achievements:
      Created Dream Journal 1000 Hall Points Veteran First Class Tagger First Class Made lots of Friends on DV
      monsa199a's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2011
      Gender
      Posts
      236
      Likes
      307
      DJ Entries
      17
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      In a recent PM Darkmatters, in response to some of my fairly incomplete posts that hint at my experience and slightly different path for LD’ing success, asked me to share with the forum “How I did it,” and maybe create a thread in which other dreamers could ask specific questions I might attempt to answer. Normally I’d pass on doing this, since my methods and perspectives don’t always mirror the general consensus of what works, and I feel no need to intentionally stir the water around here (something I seem to do all the time anyway -- sorry!). Also, a voice somewhere in the back of my head regularly asks, “Who the hell are you to assume to know more than they do?” Good reasons to keep my trap shut, all; but, as I’ve been at this for well over 30 years with some real success, and Darkmatters insists, maybe there is something worth sharing. If you don’t think so, just move to another thread. If you’re curious about what you would ask me, then read on…

      First, a little history: I’ve been doing this LD’ing thing intentionally since the 1970’s – long before PC’s, smart phones, and the Web itself. Even books on the subject were scarce and often misguided. Nobody I knew understood what this was, or really gave a crap if I dared to describe it. By the early ‘80’s I had done it all dream-wise: flown, traveled through space (my version, I’m sure), controlled every aspect of dream schema, chatted with all manner of DC, died, had what felt like OBE’s and shared dreams, etc, etc, etc. I even wrote waking-life novels (mostly much later) about it all, building their plots around my actual dreams. But there was something missing: I wanted to use LD’ing as a tool for transcendence, as a way to move my consciousness toward spiritual and physical experiences that humans are not naturally meant to have. But all the stuff I did hadn’t been helping. In fact, it seemed that it may have served as a block to my seeing what I needed to see -- the excitement and adventure inherent in low-level lucidity reduces interest in doing hard work to expand to higher levels.

      I was on my own until the ‘90’s when Stephen LaBerge’s EWOLD fell in my lap (it came with the Dream Light I had ordered from a catalog). From it I learned that there were terms for what I’d been doing for decades, and that I wasn’t alone. I discovered that I had not just been aware I was dreaming all that time; I had been experiencing Lucid dreams. And I was inducing them with what apparently were called WILD and DILD induction techniques (before that I just called them “Lying there until the dream starts”, and “waking up in a dream,” respectively). To give the experience a name did help, but only to define, not improve, my experience.

      By the early 2,000’s, after trying just about everything, including hypno-tapes (yes, tapes), machines (that Dream Light cost $1,200, BTW), and guru-based dream camps, I came to the conclusion that all the “stuff,” including supplements like gallantamine and vitamin B6, cleverly named techniques like WILD, DILD, and MILD, really did nothing to further push my LD’ing envelope. In time I realized -- mostly on my own but also by picking the brains of very experienced LD’ers while I moderated the Lucidity Institute’s forum for a couple of years -- that it wasn’t the stuff that made even the weakest LD’s tick; it was careful attention to the fundamentals.

      In a sense, LD’ing is a 3-legged stool. The first leg is the state of dreaming itself, and the second and third legs are self-awareness and memory. The absence of any one of these legs means the stool topples and poof! No lucidity. It’s that simple. All the machines, gurus, techniques, and supplements in the world would do nothing, I knew, until I mastered these two things.

      Of course I haven’t yet mastered either; that might never happen. Although I -- and any successful LD’er, I must assume -- had some grasp of these “legs,” my hold was far too tenuous to seek the things that I knew I should be able to find. But the act of finally making self-awareness and memory a priority elevated my LD’ing experience from one of enjoying the wonders of my dreams as supplied by my dreaming mind to one of real control, creativity, discovery, and growth. Since improving my self-awareness, some of my dreams, I think, have been downright transcendental in the last few years, and I believe it is because I simplified my quest. Now, for those still with me, the fundamentals:

      Self-awareness is nothing more -- or less -- than being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you. This sounds like a no-brainer, but it’s a lot harder to master than it sounds. Most people are content to live their entire lives without a moment of self-awareness, content to let the events of their world wash over them and to remain unaware of how the things they do and say touch those events…sort of living life like it’s a dream, I suppose. Perfecting self-awareness is simple: pay attention! Unfortunately, humans are naturally wired to not pay this sort of attention, so it takes a lot of work to stay focused and not lapse back into the easy strides taken by those who travel life without ever once checking the path.

      Memory is more of a physical issue, because it is inaccessible, or effectively “turned off,” during sleep, naturally out of reach of dreamers. This is why so many things in your dreams seem so normal and obvious, but in reality are impossible. Turning memory back on is not easy, but it can be done. Indeed, there are many mnemonic techniques available that will help you, but suffice it for now to say that if you can’t remember during a dream that your waking life body is sleeping right where you left it, you might never be able to step above the lowest levels of lucidity. And yes, your dreams are certainly filled with “remembered” images; but these images are awash in a matrix of archetypes and powerful long-term memories. Short-term memory, and active long-term memory (the thing that reminds you that cows really can’t fly), are naturally inaccessible. [Edit: I went on a bit further about memory on a separate thread here, if you are interested]

      Since developing self-awareness (or a powerful sense of Self) and memory are very personal, often difficult, long-term projects that are done during the dreamer’s waking life, I really think you need to carve your own path toward a goal of achieving them, in terms of method (ie, Lidybug’s Clear Light perspective thread shows her wonderful method for developing self-awareness).

      Be advised, though, that doing so will take a while, and likely require some real sacrifices and discipline on your part. If someone offers you a magical shortcut to higher awareness, assume that they are wrong, or lying. All the machines, techniques, etc, are certainly helpful (if you’re interested, I’ll be happy to share what I found works best -- just ask), but they will never get you to high-level lucidity – only your own hard work will.

      Okay, I realize that I have spent all these words saying next to nothing that’s really helpful; I would need many thousands of words to do true service to this subject, which is not acceptable in this “tl;dr” world, much less on this forum. Besides, I think in the end I’m better at answering questions than presenting things cold. So, if you’re still with me, ask what you want, and I will tell you what I know, or at least believe – as briefly as possible!

      Thanks for bearing with me on the intro, and I do hope that I seeded it with enough stuff that will make you curious enough to ask for more…
      You're trully a great inspiration!!! Thank you! namaste!

    Page 23 of 23 FirstFirst ... 13 21 22 23

    Similar Threads

    1. Stabilization Fundamentals
      By Mzzkc in forum Dream Control
      Replies: 81
      Last Post: 07-11-2014, 04:42 AM
    2. Fundamentals of Gaining Lucidity?
      By gunzblitz in forum Attaining Lucidity
      Replies: 3
      Last Post: 07-01-2013, 05:10 PM
    3. Stabilization Fundamentals
      By Mzzkc in forum User Articles
      Replies: 0
      Last Post: 07-11-2011, 06:58 AM

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •