What happened? Post Your WILD Attempts, Good or Bad, Here

[Sageous]

^^ Nicely done, Patience!

[LouaiB]

I tried WILD I think it was the night before last night. a nap. So I laid down and started visualizing the dream goal. I kept saying a mantra and reminded myself I need to focus better on keeping my self awareness. So I lost my self awareness (I think I get too distracted by the visualizations), but when the visualizations became so clear and vivid that they formed a dream, or I think very close to a full dream, my PM reminded me I was WILDing and so returned to me my self awareness. This happens a lot as you probably know by now. I should mention that the period where I lose my self awareness till I gain it almost is never memorable. It's just a gap in my memory most of the times. So then I got my self awareness back, which feels like waking up, but the dream got further cuz i guess it's because this 'waking up' disgaged me from the dream for a moment. oh and what a good boy I am, I remembered straight away to stay calm, and so i did and lasted more than what i usually do when this happens. Still I didn't enter the dream, and was still a bit excited so DEILD didn't work, but hey it's an improvement. Also I have a question. You know when we sleep and we reach a point where our logic kinda starts failing and we start thinking weird and illogical ideas? I get that sometimes when I WILD. I notice that I am barely self aware when this happens. This isn't supposed to happen, right? I mean, if we maintain our self awareness through a full dive, this wouldn't have a chance to occur, right? This loss of logic doesn't happen if we maintain self awareness, right?

[Sageous]

^^ That was a good try, Louai; excellent incorporation of MILD techniques into your dive as well! I have one small suggestion that might help, should it actually make sense: So I laid down and started visualizing the dream goal. I kept saying a mantra and reminded myself I need to focus better on keeping my self awareness. So I lost my self awareness (I think I get too distracted by the visualizations) When you are doing your visualization and reciting your mantra, you might consider not reminding yourself that you "need to focus better on keeping my self awareness," or anything else for that matter. When you do things like intellectually remind yourself to focus better, the opposite tends to happen. You might be better off just sticking to your mantra, using it alone to stay focused on the dream. If your mantra isn't any help in that department, consider adopting a new one, one that relates more directly to your intended dream. Also, your mantra should help you establish your visualization as well, since your visualization ought to be related to your intended dream as well... so there is no need to mentally "step away" to remind yourself to focus, or anything else. That stepping away from your dive could very well be what distracted you, and not the visualizations. Indeed, I could be wrong, but your reminder to focus may have sent your whole dive in the wrong direction, and the only thing that held you on target was that bit of PM you had padding your mental toolbox (nothing wrong with that at all, BTW!). Simpler is always better, especially when you are trying to corral your self-awareness as your body falls asleep around you. And: Also I have a question. You know when we sleep and we reach a point where our logic kinda starts failing and we start thinking weird and illogical ideas? I get that sometimes when I WILD. I notice that I am barely self aware when this happens. This isn't supposed to happen, right? I mean, if we maintain our self awareness through a full dive, this wouldn't have a chance to occur, right? This loss of logic doesn't happen if we maintain self awareness, right? Here's something to consider that might come in handy on your next WILD dive: your logic functions just fine whenever you are conscious, lucid or not. It is memory, or rather your separation from it as you fall asleep, that allows those weird ideas to make sense. So, should you notice your "logic" failing during a dive, don't try to be more logical; instead, try to remember: Remember your goals, your mantra, your physical and psychic presence in the moment. Basically, just try to keep your self connected with your memory. Doing so will also recharge your self-awareness, which must have been reduced somehow, or else this logic memory failure (or logic failure; at that point it really doesn't matter) would not have happened in the first place...So, yes, if you are self-aware throughout the dive this memory/logic failure will not happen, because you are still connected to your waking-life memory.

[LouaiB]

It did make sense. So I just need to recite my mantra, bcz it is supposed to do it's job. If it's not helping me keep my self awareness, then the problem is not me reciting it wrong, but more that the mantra isn't very correct. I should make it more related to my dream goal and dream goal visualization. But related how to my dream visualization and goal and at the same time it keeping my self awareness? I remember you talked about it before. You used a palm trees example if I remember right? Let's say my dream goal is forming a beach, what can my mantra be?? Here's something to consider that might come in handy on your next WILD dive: your logic functions just fine whenever you are conscious, lucid or not. It is memory, or rather your separation from it as you fall asleep, that allows those weird ideas to make sense. So, should you notice your "logic" failing during a dive, don't try to be more logical; instead, try to remember: Remember your goals, your mantra, your physical and psychic presence in the moment. Basically, just try to keep your self connected with your memory. Doing so will also recharge your self-awareness, which must have been reduced somehow, or else this logic memory failure (or logic failure; at that point it really doesn't matter) would not have happened in the first place...So, yes, if you are self-aware throughout the dive this memory/logic failure will not happen, because you are still connected to your waking-life memory. So that's how memory helps. We tend to lose our memory and self awareness while we fall asleep, and I should 'refresh' my memory so I would gain back more self awareness. My mantra serves a goal to keep my memory present too, right? Like, it reminds me of my goal and that I'm now Diving. right? Also I attempted WILD again a few hours ago, but I kept losing my self awareness. Lol I was saying over and over that I need to focus more on the mantra, then I would quickly forget about it and get sucked too much into my visualizations and thoughts and lose self awareness. I've noticed my RL memory is becoming weaker these few months. Like I'm finding it harder to remember names. I'm not sure this relates to anything but meh.

[Sageous]

But related how to my dream visualization and goal and at the same time it keeping my self awareness? I remember you talked about it before. You used a palm trees example if I remember right? Let's say my dream goal is forming a beach, what can my mantra be?? First, repeating your mantra ought to serve as a vehicle for maintaining self-awareness in itself, regardless of what you are repeating (something about having to consciously remember to keep repeating it, I think), so the mantra can be aimed right at your dream goals without losing its ability to help with self-awareness. Your mantra really needs to be something that matters to you personally, but in that case of a beachy dream goal it could be something as simple as "The beach," or "I know I am on the beach." If you are good at visualization, you could even "repeat" a simple image of the beach, like a beach ball or maybe your bare feet sinking into sand. I forgot what the palm trees example was, so I guess I'll have to skip that one! My mantra serves a goal to keep my memory present too, right? Like, it reminds me of my goal and that I'm now Diving. right? Yes. Also I attempted WILD again a few hours ago, but I kept losing my self awareness. Lol I was saying over and over that I need to focus more on the mantra, then I would quickly forget about it and get sucked too much into my visualizations and thoughts and lose self awareness. Aside from chiding yourself during the dive about staying focused (which we already talked about), try to remember that you should not be focused on your mantra, but rather be using it as a tool to help you maintain focus. Also: Though I understand what you meant, getting sucked into your visualizations actually seems like a good thing to me, as long as you remember during the sucking that they are your visualizations and will be part of your dream shortly. I've noticed my RL memory is becoming weaker these few months. Like I'm finding it harder to remember names. I'm not sure this relates to anything but meh. It just might. My biggest problem these days is memory, or my growing lack of access to it as I age. You might look into doing some memory exercises to try to get your memory back into shape (or at least back to something close to shape, which is my goal).

[LouaiB]

Though I understand what you meant, getting sucked into your visualizations actually seems like a good thing to me, as long as you remember during the sucking that they are your visualizations and will be part of your dream shortly. Yeah. It's more of me forgetting I'm WILDing, I don't know if it's because I'm getting distracted too much by the visualization plot (the subject and story I'm visualizing) that I'm forgetting about the WILD. Oh yeah maybe I shouldn't visualize the things I wanna do in my dream (?) bcz that might be too distracting.....or is that a good thing that it's engaging? As long as I can remember it's a dream scene, the more engaging the better?? I feel like this engagement is making me forget it's a dream. Like, when I visualize, I keep reminding myself that this is a dream scene and I'm WILDing, but if I get too engaged by the plot, I forget and just sink into non self aware visualization. Oh, I know how to explain it properly now: I forget to remind myself I'm WILDing. When I said "focusing on my mantra" I meant it more like "focusing on remembering to repeat my mantra". So, does a more engaging plot make me more likely to forget about reminding myself it's a dream scene? Or is it ok to have an engaging plot (or even better), and I should just try reminding myself constantly it's a dream scene, and maybe even find a clever way to add an element to the plot that reminds me it's a dream scene, and, well, practice makes perfect? So in short, I'm forgetting to remind myself that I'm WILDing during the dive and that the visualizations are dream scenes and a dream to come. So halfway I forget to repeat my mantra, and just start to lose self awareness. I'm forgetting if you talked about this specific point now. Things are getting harder to understand for me. even simple concepts. I think I might be suffering from malnutrition. So if I'm forgetting to repeat my mantra, I need a better mantra? One that relates better to the goal and visualizations so I can remember to recite it more (?) and have more efficiency on holding self awareness, since if it's related to my dream goal and visualizations, it would remind me better of what I'm doing?? Or just need to place stronger intentions on remembering to repeat my mantra? Or is it maybe that my visualizations are too engaging? I hope I'm not repeating myself. It's just annoying that I wanna WILD and I keep forgetting I'm WILDing during the dive. Might I be over complicating this though? Does all I need to know is having a mantra relating to the goal and remember to recite it during the dive to keep my self awareness? I should just go do the WILD with this mindset? Nothing more complicated? Cuz I think I might be going into too much not-so-important and variable details. It just might. My biggest problem these days is memory, or my growing lack of access to it as I age. You might look into doing some memory exercises to try to get your memory back into shape (or at least back to something close to shape, which is my goal). That's a good idea. There are lots of fun memory games online too. Also, the research on slowing down aging drastically is being heavily funded, and it's predicted we'd reach the ability to slow down aging a lot in a couple of decades. That's still kinda a lot, but still impressive. If anything though, science usually advances faster than predicted, especially these couple centuries. At least I hope I'm not being a wishful thinker :p

[Sageous]

Oh yeah maybe I shouldn't visualize the things I wanna do in my dream (?) bcz that might be too distracting.....or is that a good thing that it's engaging? As long as I can remember it's a dream scene, the more engaging the better?? Yes, the more engaging the better. If you have the ability to visualize (I sure don't), then definitely employ that as much as possible. Work instead on the "distracting" part, and learn to simply remember your Self no matter how interesting the visualizations get. Learn to do this remembering without telling yourself, during the dive, to remember (that's the "simply" part, and more in a sec). A lucid dream is, after all, little more than your consciously witnessing a complex visualization that is the dream, so any skills you develop to hold your self-awareness during visualization might come with you into the dream. I feel like this engagement is making me forget it's a dream. Like, when I visualize, I keep reminding myself that this is a dream scene and I'm WILDing, but if I get too engaged by the plot, I forget and just sink into non self aware visualization. Oh, I know how to explain it properly now: I forget to remind myself I'm WILDing. When I said "focusing on my mantra" I meant it more like "focusing on remembering to repeat my mantra". So, does a more engaging plot make me more likely to forget about reminding myself it's a dream scene? Or is it ok to have an engaging plot (or even better), and I should just try reminding myself constantly it's a dream scene, and maybe even find a clever way to add an element to the plot that reminds me it's a dream scene, and, well, practice makes perfect? Here's a crazy thought: if your visualization becomes so engaging that you forget your WILD, forget your mantra, forget your self, then maybe it might be more fun to dive into the visualization than the pursue your WILD! This may be heresy, but WILD and LD'ing in general is not the only cool island to visit in your ocean of conscious experience and imaginative creation. If another, more interesting place emerges, it won't hurt to visit it. And, because you were doing a WILD initially, when the dream actually joins your visualizations, you may find yourself remembering that you meant to be lucid, and have yourself a DILD -- best of both worlds, I think! So yes, it's just fine to have an engaging plot. Also, finding a clever way to install an element into your visualization that might keep your self-awareness in tow is a great idea -- and might be just the thing to induce a DILD later on should you abandon your self-awareness (by accident or choice) during the WILD. So in short, I'm forgetting to remind myself that I'm WILDing during the dive and that the visualizations are dream scenes and a dream to come. So halfway I forget to repeat my mantra, and just start to lose self awareness. Again, you might try avoiding abstract thoughts like reminding yourself that you are WILDing, as those sorts of intellectualizations tend to become just another distraction or, worse, tend to take you away from actually falling asleep. Instead, simply be self-aware, and maintain that self-awareness by repeating your mantra and remembering in general, and not in specifics. Here are some other, short answers: I'm forgetting if you talked about this specific point now. Things are getting harder to understand for me. even simple concepts. I think I might be suffering from malnutrition. Well then eat something! So if I'm forgetting to repeat my mantra, I need a better mantra? One that relates better to the goal and visualizations so I can remember to recite it more (?) and have more efficiency on holding self awareness, since if it's related to my dream goal and visualizations, it would remind me better of what I'm doing?? Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Or just need to place stronger intentions on remembering to repeat my mantra? That's a good idea, but be sure that your intention doesn't include your abstractly thinking about remembering during your dive. Might I be over complicating this though? Does all I need to know is having a mantra relating to the goal and remember to recite it during the dive to keep my self awareness? I should just go do the WILD with this mindset? Nothing more complicated? Cuz I think I might be going into too much not-so-important and variable details. Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes, you may indeed be "going into too much not-so-important and variable details." It seems that you have a good understanding of these things... now to put them into practice!

[LouaiB]

Yes, the more engaging the better. If you have the ability to visualize (I sure don't), then definitely employ that as much as possible. Work instead on the "distracting" part, and learn to simply remember your Self no matter how interesting the visualizations get. Learn to do this remembering without telling yourself, during the dive, to remember (that's the "simply" part, and more in a sec). A lucid dream is, after all, little more than your consciously witnessing a complex visualization that is the dream, so any skills you develop to hold your self-awareness during visualization might come with you into the dream. Again, you might try avoiding abstract thoughts like reminding yourself that you are WILDing, as those sorts of intellectualizations tend to become just another distraction or, worse, tend to take you away from actually falling asleep. Instead, simply be self-aware, and maintain that self-awareness by repeating your mantra and remembering in general, and not in specifics. So the more engaging the better. I just need to practice remembering that I'm WILDing during the dive, but in a more passive way that to specifically focus on remembering that during the WILD. So pretty much I need to rely on previous intentions to do this, which begs me to think that I'm relying on PM to remember (?) . And yeah I'm good at visualizations. When I meditate sometimes I get so 'in it' that my visualizations are almost dream strong...touch, vision, etc....almost, bcz even then I would still not feel like I'm present 'there'. That's why LDs are still much more preferable to me. But still, I enjoy daydreaming, I do it a lot. As long as I can remember, I've been doing it so much everyday. Here's a crazy thought: if your visualization becomes so engaging that you forget your WILD, forget your mantra, forget your self, then maybe it might be more fun to dive into the visualization than the pursue your WILD! This may be heresy, but WILD and LD'ing in general is not the only cool island to visit in your ocean of conscious experience and imaginative creation. If another, more interesting place emerges, it won't hurt to visit it. And, because you were doing a WILD initially, when the dream actually joins your visualizations, you may find yourself remembering that you meant to be lucid, and have yourself a DILD -- best of both worlds, I think! So yes, it's just fine to have an engaging plot. Also, finding a clever way to install an element into your visualization that might keep your self-awareness in tow is a great idea -- and might be just the thing to induce a DILD later on should you abandon your self-awareness (by accident or choice) during the WILD. What I meant by planting a cue in the visualization is to remind me that this is visualizations and a dream to come. I didn't mean it as a DILD que. I've trained in MILD so much and trained my PM that I can place an intention to become lucid before I start the WILD dive, and the only que I need is the visualizations becoming very vivid and real (or in other words, I've popped into the visualizations, so whether I managed to keep my self awareness or not, my PM would remind me I was WILDing). Also, I almost always either complete the WILD or fall asleep. I rarely hit insomnia during WILD. So, there's no need to intentionaly focus on the fun visualizations and ditch the dive hoping I might end up with a MILD, bcz I'll already succeed in MILD probably while making a full on WILD attempt, and a full on WILD attempt rarely keeps me awake since I learned to prioritize sleep. So yes, it's just fine to have an engaging plot. Also, finding a clever way to install an element into your visualization that might keep your self-awareness in tow is a great idea -- and might be just the thing to induce a DILD later on should you abandon your self-awareness (by accident or choice) during the WILD. oh, sorry, you actually did understand me right xD. I thought you though I meant it as just a DILD cue, and not a 'flash' to remind me I'm WILDing. HOw would I make such a cue though?? Maybe I'll call the girl I might be with "WILD". OMG yeah that works!! lol when i'm visualizing and maybe my PM failed to remind me I'm WILDing for a long intervel (making me hit critical self awareness loss), I might just be like "WILD, lets cuddle.........oh wait.....oh Yeah I'm WILDing" XD Also, my main art teacher who makes youtube tutorials also says he can't visualize. He can't see things using his third eye. when he closes his eyes, he sees nothing. Is that what you mean? Because I've seen ppl think that but they actually thought visualization is like having LCD screens inside your eyelids when you close your eyes. I doubt anyone has that strong of a visualization skill. Anyways, I'll definitely be doing WILD each night for now. It's really fun for me to do wbtbs and WILD!! It's not even a chore or anything!

[Sageous]

So the more engaging the better. I just need to practice remembering that I'm WILDing during the dive, but in a more passive way than to specifically focus on remembering that during the WILD. So pretty much I need to rely on previous intentions to do this, which begs me to think that I'm relying on PM to remember(?). That will work, I think. So too will simply developing a mindset that includes remembering to remember during the WILD. If it is in you to spontaneously or automatically access your memory in a conscious way every few minutes, then you will not be able to avoid remembering that you are WILD'ing without the need to remind yourself to do so. That sounded a lot better in my head... Also, my main art teacher who makes youtube tutorials also says he can't visualize. He can't see things using his third eye. when he closes his eyes, he sees nothing. Is that what you mean? Pretty much; though I have learned to compensate by filling in that "nothing" with holographic sort of thoughts.. in a sense I compensate for my inability to visualize with pure thought .. and we can all do that! Anyways, I'll definitely be doing WILD each night for now. It's really fun for me to do wbtbs and WILD!! It's not even a chore or anything! That is always a good thing. Next time!

[TDHXIII]

Gave it a try today As usual, a nap attempt. First i layed down trying to normally sleep until i got an urge to roll over to my back (i always do) then started using the anchor. Whatever, i remember rolling over again but to my left side which i don't usually sleep on. By this point i had forgotten to continue my counting anchor altogether and probably forgot the WILD too. After a short while i noticed that it was very hard to move (Probably REM Atonia, it's always like this). The only thing that got my attention and made me fail is that i was able to imagine hearing a song and then shortly afterwards i actually heard it as if it was really there. Of course this song i heard was followed by some feeling of a finger moving accross my back (RA again probably). Now what? i haven't heard of this.. I can control RA too? And you can guess what happened after i got busy with the noises and sensations. I know that they should be ignored, but i got caught off-guard when i forgot to continue my counting. Another thing that always happens is that i use my anchor only to wander after a few minutes and forget to continue doing it altogether, is this even normal? I'm feeling like i'm supposed to "stay aware" throughout the whole attempt, but what actually happens is that i get a lapse of consciousness in the middle which results in this memory fog. 2 problems i'm facing 1- Forgetting my anchor and riding the waves of illogical thoughts. 2- As a result of 1, i keep getting surprised when i get RA effects, thus focusing on them and ultimately they vanish. I'll try again, but i would be greatful to know why the first problem keeps happening. While i do forget to continue using my anchor, it shoots me aware somehow when i suddenly get hit with RA/SP. As a result, i encounter RA/SP with no prior awareness except when i first layed down. And that's why i always get busy with the noise and fail.

[Smudgefish]

TDHXIII: Just a thought - if you are getting RA can you turn it into an OBE rather than waiting for a dream??

[TDHXIII]

TDHXIII: Just a thought - if you are getting RA can you turn it into an OBE rather than waiting for a dream?? If by OBE you mean a lucid dream that starts in your room. Probably yes. I'm not 100% sure but it's most likely possible when your body goes into sleep.

[Sageous]

2 problems i'm facing 1- Forgetting my anchor and riding the waves of illogical thoughts. 2- As a result of 1, i keep getting surprised when i get RA effects, thus focusing on them and ultimately they vanish. I'll try again, but i would be greatful to know why the first problem keeps happening. While i do forget to continue using my anchor, it shoots me aware somehow when i suddenly get hit with RA/SP. As a result, i encounter RA/SP with no prior awareness except when i first layed down. And that's why i always get busy with the noise and fail. I think I may have said this before, but your problem with forgetting your anchor could have to do with your using the wrong anchor. You might consider switching to a mantra, and preferably one that is directly related to your dream goals. I've never been a big fan of counting anchors, primarily because counting tends to have an opposite effect by lulling you to sleep, and away from self-awareness and memory. I wonder if your anchor really had much to do with your difficulty with RA, or whether that difficulty would have emerged anyway. If you are in a WILD dive and briefly lose self-awareness, sensing noise like the RA or music ought to be markers to help recover self-awareness -- as long as you remember to turn your focus to the dream, and not to the noise. You really must learn to ignore RA (and forget SP altogether), making it less important or noticeable. You are never getting "hit" with anything during a WILD dive, you are only choosing to make the things that you are witnessing (like RA) more important than they need to be. I know, I know, I'm a broken record on this; but I have strong a feeling that many of your problems will be solved if you learn to ignore the noise, so repetition becomes necessary. In other words, #2 might not be related to #1. If you find a mantra that keeps you focused and self-aware, you might still find yourself being surprised or over-interested in the onset of the noise. Also: If by OBE you mean a lucid dream that starts in your room. Probably yes because i did it before by getting up using my dream body. I'm not 100% sure but it's most likely possible. Here is a quote from Sageous a few pages back when i asked him about RA: for instance, if you sense that your body is asleep (that REM Atonia or "SP state" sensation) try "rolling out of it" with your dream body. Please note that that suggestion (which I believe is from LaBerge, originally) was not originally meant to be an OBE induction technique. The act of "rolling out of your body," as I understand it, is a metaphorical movement meant to remind you that you are now in your "dream body," and fully immersed in your dream. It was not meant, in the context of WILD and LD'ing in general, to imply an an actual exit from your sleeping body. I know that the technique has also become a common technique for attempting OBE's, but that is not what I meant in the post above.

[Smudgefish]

What do you think of the technique of 'programming' yourself to wake immediately on falling asleep but then to aim to wake into RA (ie becoming concious but not fully waking)? The aim of this is more for an OBE than an LD, but I think that's more of an acedemic point. This is what I am now trying - WILDing to try to maintain as much awareness as possible but then telling myself that I will wake the moment I fall asleep, it's working to some extent but I usually wake with a bit of a start and end up fully waking. This is the only technique I have had any success with so far and managed it once recently when I almost managed to get out of body but got stuck and had to give up, and I must have been in RA but wasn't particularly aware of it particularly as I was doing more than enough movement with my dream body or whatever you call it.

[TDHXIII]

I think I may have said this before, but your problem with forgetting your anchor could have to do with your using the wrong anchor. You might consider switching to a mantra, and preferably one that is directly related to your dream goals. I've never been a big fan of counting anchors, primarily because counting tends to have an opposite effect by lulling you to sleep, and away from self-awareness and memory. I wonder if your anchor really had much to do with your difficulty with RA, or whether that difficulty would have emerged anyway. If you are in a WILD dive and briefly lose self-awareness, sensing noise like the RA or music ought to be markers to help recover self-awareness -- as long as you remember to turn your focus to the dream, and not to the noise. Good advice, i'll switch to a mantra if this is the case. I wouldn't know because the only anchor i actually used properly was counting. Does it really matter if my mantra relates to my dream goal? My main goal is to be lucid obviously but i'll try repeating the name of the place i want to start my dream in. About my anchor's relation to my problems with RA, it's that my anchor doesn't send me off for brief moments of unconsciousness, it sends me far away and as usual the noise does bring back my attention later. You really must learn to ignore RA (and forget SP altogether), making it less important or noticeable. You are never getting "hit" with anything during a WILD dive, you are only choosing to make the things that you are witnessing (like RA) more important than they need to be. I know, I know, I'm a broken record on this; but I have strong a feeling that many of your problems will be solved if you learn to ignore the noise, so repetition becomes necessary. In other words, #2 might not be related to #1. If you find a mantra that keeps you focused and self-aware, you might still find yourself being surprised or over-interested in the onset of the noise. Naturally the noise is becoming easier to ignore the more times i reach it but if i stay like this it would take a long time to do such a simple-looking task like ignoring some sounds. Today i apparently was able to ignore the noise i encountered by accident while trying to sleep, and later on i do remember landing a FA and a DEILD. I'm bad with words like "passively observe", so by ignoring the noise do you mean not having any thoughts about it just like the anchor/mantra? or trying to divert my attention to something else? Also: Please note that that suggestion (which I believe is from LaBerge, originally) was not originally meant to be an OBE induction technique. The act of "rolling out of your body," as I understand it, is a metaphorical movement meant to remind you that you are now in your "dream body," and fully immersed in your dream. It was not meant, in the context of WILD and LD'ing in general, to imply an an actual exit from your sleeping body. I know that the technique has also become a common technique for attempting OBE's, but that is not what I meant in the post above. Aha, so that's what you meant by this.

[Sageous]

Does it really matter if my mantra relates to my dream goal? I think it might. Repeating the name of where you expect to start does seem a good idea. About my anchor's relation to my problems with RA, it's that my anchor doesn't send me off for brief moments of unconsciousness, it sends me far away and as usual the noise does bring back my attention later. ...which is why I suggested that your anchor might not have been working for you! I'm bad with words like "passively observe", so by ignoring the noise do you mean not having any thoughts about it just like the anchor/mantra? or trying to divert my attention to something else? Think of "ignoring" the noise in terms, perhaps, of driving a car. When you are driving, your focus is on the road in front of you, by necessity. Yes, you might notice passing trees, buildings, signs, etc., but all the while the thing that holds your attention is the road and the car's controls. You can notice the passing scenery, or perhaps hear your phone ring, but start looking too closely at the lovely trees, or answer your phone, and you risk ending your drive quite suddenly.

[TDHXIII]

Think of "ignoring" the noise in terms, perhaps, of driving a car. When you are driving, your focus is on the road in front of you, by necessity. Yes, you might notice passing trees, buildings, signs, etc., but all the while the thing that holds your attention is the road and the car's controls. You can notice the passing scenery, or perhaps hear your phone ring, but start looking too closely at the lovely trees, or answer your phone, and you risk ending your drive quite suddenly. I'll think about a good mantra to use. So pretty much by ignoring the noise i'm supposed to take the approach of car driving. This also sounds oddly similar to what i unintentionally did today to get past the noise into a dream. So when i put these together: i use my mantra while focusing on falling asleep, and if noise does come then i just focus on creating the feeling that i'm in the dream (or just focusing on the dream). I don't see HI, so less stuff to distract me. I'll be aiming for the LD with my next tries. ________________________________ After another attempt I'm glad now that i have been very successful in most of the process, i can now get past the laying down process everytime i try using an anchor. I have gotten much more used to getting RA by now so i'm not likely to be as surprised anymore when i encounter it. I tried ignoring the distractions but i think i didn't do that properly since on today's attempt i got a strong presensce and some vibrations which are a first-time for me. Yeah i know.. i failed because for a moment i focused on one of the sensations thinking a relative was in my room when it was clearly a hallucination in itself.. Regardless of that, the way it looks like now is that the more i do this, the more i'll get a chance of success. No matter how many times i go into the technique ignoring and removing RA from the experience, it always occurs when i WILD. Back when i did FILD i went straight into a dream so i fail to see why that doesn't work with WILD. For all i care i could be dreaming about having it at this point, having a small form of control over the hallucinations and all.. I'll choose ignoring it as my first method for now so i'll try out different forms of ignoring. As sick as i became from this, i have on the other hand gotten a lot better at getting through the anchor process. You could say that i'm wasting my time on such a simple part of this technique, but the way i see it is that i'm gaining experience on everything related to WILD as i repeatedly attempt it. I wouldn't bail out impatiently after going through 4 months of just trying to get THIS CLOSE to the dream itself. And i might be slightly crazy, but i'm not giving up on this anytime soon. Seeing as before i couln't stand a chance at WILDing, i'm finally progressing. Just as the anchor was a trial-and-error thing, this will be too. I'll read up more on it because maybe i'll gain some understanding to use to my advantage. Well, whatever happens, you know what i'm going to say as my last sentence with any post.

[Ajanime22]

My First WILD Experience: -I woke laying on my back IWL from a fairly long dream at 9:10. I wanted to go immediately into a dream. My right arm was bent and above my head and I believe that my left arm was resting on my lower stomach. Then, for some reason, as I inhaled, I felt my body rock backward into the bed and as I exhaled, my body felt as though it was rocking forward away from the bed. Within a matter of seconds (probably 5), my whole body started to tingle like crazy and I was hearing a buzzing sound louder than I've ever heard and there were lights flashing everywhere. This alarmed me, so, I decided to stop the sensations. However, I realized that it was a WILD waiting to happen. So, I decided to try again. I remembered in wild attempts, there were reports of people seeing scary images and hearing scary things. So, I tried to picture of the face my mother and grandmother as I was going to sleep. I did the rocking/breathing technique again and the sensations came back. But, then, I heard a scream. Not of a person. But, like the scream of a small monster. It was short and quiet, kind of like a whisper, if that makes any sense. I screamed because I was scared and I heard myself screaming. I, then started to hear the sound on something crawling towards the corner of my room where my piano is. It was pretty vague like something out of resident evil and I thought it was coming towards me. At this point, I just wanted to get out of this. But, I couldn't move my body. And I still heard the sound of the creature by my piano. As I was coming to, I heard the sound of the monster fade away. I was relieved that I was no longer in that nightmare, but, also mad that my fear stop me from doing a WILD. If that's really what WILDers go through every time they WILD, they are better than me. I found that experience horrifying and I wasn't even SEEING anything scary. I can't imagine how it would have been had I actually SEEN something. Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated. Please and thank you.

[Sageous]

^^ I'm not sure what it was you experienced, Ajanime, but you can rest assured it was not a WILD, and also that WILDers DO NOT go through things like this every time they WILD. It's hard to say, but what you went through was probably just a series of strong hypnagogic imagery (HI), or perhaps a non-lucid nightmare based on your expectations of what a WILD should be like, based on what you've been hearing from others' reports. But there was definitely no WILD involved, because a WILD is, literally, the transition from wake to sleep to dream without losing waking-life self-awareness, and as you didn't seem to register much about actually falling asleep or entering a lucid dream, that transition doesn't seem to have occurred. I highly recommend that you take a look at the DVA WILD class to which this thread is attached, paying extra attention to the session on the noise. WILD is about lucid dreaming; it is not about all the scary things you've heard about (and list above), and perhaps reading a thorough course that doesn't make all that noise (i.e., HI, SP, vibrations,etc) so important, you might have a glimpse of what WILD is really about.

[TDHXIII]

Continuing on from my previous post. I have thought of a way to ignore the distractions. Today i wasn't trying to WILD, but i was trying to go to sleep. At first, i was trying to sleep on my right side but eventually i rolled over to my back. Not to my guesses, REM Atonia started setting in right away while i was still aware. Starting with the feeling of my body getting heavier and heavier, i freaked out at first and tried to move my body to avoid it, but i accepted it and stayed still waiting. It was only around 10~15 seconds before something started happening. This time, it was extreme wind pressure on my ears. Nothing freaky, but similar to that extremely loud buzzing sound, it was something annoying. I started counting and emptying my thoughts and i spent quite a while like this with seemingly nothing new happening. Later on i thought of the dream and decided to try to get out of bed and reality check. Sure enough, i was able to move, and it was a dream. An amazing sense of presence, but the dream was blurry and very short. This is what i got from my memory as i don't remember what exactly happened during the transition. The only thing i can make out of this is that i was able to pass the noise and that here is no HI in my transitions. If i do count this as success, then i can pass the noise now. Still bugging me, is how to know if i'm dreaming or if i'm still in RA. Not bad for an accidental. It looks like i'm getting better with RA and WILD overall. I'll try this more to confirm that i can pass the distractions correctly.

[Sageous]

Still bugging me, is how to know if i'm dreaming or if i'm still in RA. The easy answer to this is that there is no "still in RA." REM atonia is a function of sleep, and not a thing you are in, or need to consider yourself in, at any given moment. If you are dreaming, then RA is likely in action. There is no RA phase (or SP phase) to pass through before your dream. In other words, if you are dreaming, then you are "in" RA, and if you are dreaming you will know because, well, you will be dreaming. It's good that you are minding the distractions, TDHXIII, but it will help if you go all the way and include RA among them. Oh, and there is nothing wrong with "accidental" WILDs because, at a certain point, they really aren't accidental.

[TDHXIII]

The easy answer to this is that there is no "still in RA." REM atonia is a function of sleep, and not a thing you are in, or need to consider yourself in, at any given moment. If you are dreaming, then RA is likely in action. There is no RA phase (or SP phase) to pass through before your dream. In other words, if you are dreaming, then you are "in" RA, and if you are dreaming you will know because, well, you will be dreaming. It's good that you are minding the distractions, TDHXIII, but it will help if you go all the way and include RA among them. Oh, and there is nothing wrong with "accidental" WILDs because, at a certain point, they really aren't accidental. I have a couple of questions about this that caused me confusion ever since i started: All of my attempts involved extreme difficulty to move my body. Is this caused by expectation? I'll add that i have been keeping my eyes closed. Should i open my eyes on my future attempts? I closed them due to fear of seeing freaky things, but now i'm starting to not care. The thing i got is that RA is not a stage, but an effect. But due to some confusion, i'm not really sure about that. After this clears up, i'll be able to throw RA/SP out of the window of attention. And based on all of this, i'll approach WILD with the mindset "When hallucinations come in, i'm already in a dream"

[Sageous]

^^ I can understand the confusion, TDHXIII, and, given the priority things like AP/SP have been given on the forums, it is probably a confusion you share with the many other people who have bought into such popular memes. Anyway: All of my attempts involved extreme difficulty to move my body. Is this caused by expectation? Probably. The difficulty itself is likey not caused by expectation, but the affectual need to move your body in the first place likely is caused by an expectation driven by the notion that somewhere along the line you will be in a position during WILD where you cannot move. This is not even true, since actual SP (the only time you really cannot move) tends to happen upon waking, and not during WILD, and you can always move during REM Atonia, if you feel like it. So yes: because you are interested in an inability to move, then it can indeed be the case that your unconscious creates a situation where movement is difficult. If you just pause for a moment when this occurs and tell yourself that you only cannot move (or can only move with great difficulty) because you are assuming that is the case, you will likely find movement much easier. Or you can choose the route I much more highly recommend: don't try to move at all, much less be concerned about it. Your body is only extremely difficult to move because you are trying to move it! Trying to move your body during RA is not a unit of a successful WILD, by any measure, and just ignoring these actions, or even thoughts of these actions, will get you to your dream much more effectively. I'll add that i have been keeping my eyes closed. Should i open my eyes on my future attempts? I closed them due to fear of seeing freaky things, but now i'm starting to not care. Why on earth would you keep your eyes open during a WILD? You are going to sleep during WILD, and not into some sort of voodoo trance. Close them, and let your body go to sleep as it normally would. Also, you are closing your eyes to be comfortable and to go to sleep; there are no freaky things to fear, whether they are open or closed. The thing i got is that RA is not a stage, but an effect. But due to some confusion, i'm not really sure about that. After this clears up, i'll be able to throw RA/SP out of the window of attention. And based on all of this, i'll approach WILD with the mindset "When hallucinations come in, i'm already in a dream" When your mindset finally transcends any need to care about RA or to wait for hallucinations at all, TDHXIII, you will be in a good place for WILD and LD'ing in general. Putting all this nonsense behind you, once and for all, might be all you need to successfully WILD.

[Sageous]

I'm beginning to feel like I'm being trolled... Hopefully my last concern. An example of how your attempts go at the end would help me with this one: What exactly is supposed to happen after i ignore the noise? You said a dream, but how so? Would i just be thrown into a dream randomly? See some dreamlets? Go into a FA while still laying down? ^ Stuff similar to these? The entire point of a WILD is to lucid dream. When you reach the dream, you really ought to know, all by yourself, that you are dreaming. I assume that you have had dreams in the past, so you will know what it feels like to be dreaming. Providing an example of a dream (aka, where you go at the end of a WILD) seems a bit absurd to me. You would not be "thrown into a dream randomly." The dream is the result of making a WILD transition, and it was your goal all along. I do not understand why you consider the dream itself to be some sort of step; it is where you have been working to arrive all along. If you are unable to recognize when you finally are dreaming, perhaps LD'ing is not the thing for you. Is it really fine to ignore it all and go autopilot-mode? Without any anchors or mantras during this period, will i potentially lose my awareness? I never said anything about "autopilot mode," or working without any anchors or mantras during this period (or any other period). I have no idea where you got that, but it was not from me. It is a bit frustrating, TDHXIII, that I have spent so much time answering your questions and offering advice, and this is all you have managed to hear (which is why I think I am being trolled). In any case, I am not going to go into it all again. If you actually read my WILD class, as I've been asking you to do repeatedly, you would not need to ask any of these questions. This may be the last thing that's really bugging me about the whole WILD process. I would understand everything, but get confused at the end because i don't know how i'm supposed to go into the dream the way i'm meant to. It would be helpful to see an example of how a typical attempt ends with a dream. I am not sure an example would be helpful. You are not "going into a dream," you are simply dreaming, and aware that you are doing so. If you are unsure what a dream is, then, again, this might not be an activity you should be doing. WILD as i have been doing it up until now: I lay down comfortably as if i were going to sleep, then i would notice my natural urge to roll over to my back after a few moments. I count while keeping my mind empty keeping the goal of going to sleep first and foremost. I notice the noises, i decide to ignore them. It really would have been nice if you read the WILD class, TDHXIII, or at least remembered our discussion about using counting as an anchor. I also never said anything about keeping your mind empty, either, as that certainly wouldn't help. On top of all that, I have no idea where you came up with considering the rollover urge a step in the process. The whole process you describe here has little to nothing to do with anything I've been talking about with you here or in my class. It's fine if you want your process to be this way, but why do you keep pressing me with questions about it if you have no interest in making any adjustments to your original plan, aside from a nod to the noise? Sorry this is so rude, TDHXIII; I guess you've pushed me to the end of my patience; if you have done so purposely, I really do not appreciate it. If it was not on purpose, well, I guess I simply am not understanding you, and am failing to help you anyway. Regardless, since you apparently have no interest in listening to what I've been saying (or what I'm saying is not effective), this will be the last time I respond to you. If you have more questions, please take them elsewhere. I'm sorry, but I really don't have time to keep saying the same things over and over for apparently no reason at all.

[cooleymd]

TDHXIII: if your confusion about knowing if your dreaming comes from it being possible to be asleep and dreaming that you are still attempting to WILD that could certainly happen. perhaps some people just know their dreaming and certainly the WILD is one of the surest ways to get to the knowing your dreaming stage. but for most people there is only one way and that is to do a reality check so if you unsure your dreaming then do one if it fail to detect you're dreaming return to the WILD if you succeed in discovering that you're dreaming then jump out the window and fly or something. One reason to open your eyes might be to try the reverse blink, where you suddenly open and close your eyes during the WILD attempt. I am no expert at WILD as I have only even DEILD once but maybe those were some of the things you were actually getting at instead of trolling. When ever I have tried to WILD it has taken forever to reach paralysis and then I get bored and wiggle my fingers to break out. I have lay there paralyzed for 15+ minutes and never seen a single image. Maybe I'll try again sometime but WILD isn't for everyone.