Thread: (N)REM barriers - the reason of not achieving lucidity

Interesting and potentially valuable stuff, Nfri; thanks for sharing! I hope you'll let us know more as you solidify your NREM barrier theory!

As long as I'm here:

Originally Posted by FryingMan

What what about those talented long-time LDers who get lucid in their early sleep cycles? Do they have shorter NREM or do they just have such a developed sense of awareness that the NREM barrier is no barrier for them?

I think that becoming lucid early in the sleep cycle (for folks not affected by narcolepsy) tends to be more a matter of patience, or perhaps comfort, for advanced LD'ers; especially for those who WILD into the first REM period (difficult, yes, but by no means impossible, BTW). Yes, your self-awareness and focus must be particularly sharp during lucid dives into the early sleep cycles, but an added layer of calm patience must be included as well in order to navigate long stretches of NREM. By comfort I mean facing the long drift through the emptiness of NREM with a sense of peaceful acceptance, or perhaps quiet curiosity or wonder, rather than things like overzealous focus, fear, disinterest, or despair. Those early NREM/Delta periods can be difficult, but they only become insurmountable barriers if a dreamer considers them as such, and cannot find a place in their minds or their lucid plans for the quiet emptiness of NREM. Uh-oh, I'm rambling...

In short: NREM barrier really only exists if a dreamer chooses to consider it a barrier. Choosing to see NREM as just another place to be during sleep is not only a good way to clear the barriers, but also adds another dimension to LD'ing.

I guess I drifted a bit off topic, and may be running a bit contrary to the OP's important theme. I do understand that NREM can make LD'ing difficult, and mapping it as Nfri did (and will?) seems to illustrate the best ways to avoid it in general, but FryingMan asked an important question, one whose answer indicates that there are indeed times when barriers are not barriers at all, but simply undiscovered country.

Originally Posted by Sageous

In short: NREM barrier really only exists if a dreamer chooses to consider it a barrier. Choosing to see NREM as just another place to be during sleep is not only a good way to clear the barriers, but also adds another dimension to LD'ing.

an important question, one whose answer indicates that there are indeed times when barriers are not barriers at all, but simply undiscovered country.

We've already talked about it... For me NREM barrier is unconscious part of sleep and it's not possible to stay concious during it. Our mind is turned off I guess and the longer it's turned off, the worse conditions to preserve intention to have lucid dream or to preserve efficiency of induction technique.

Originally Posted by Nfri

We've already talked about it... For me NREM barrier is unconscious part of sleep and it's not possible to stay concious during it. Our mind is turned off I guess and the longer it's turned off, the worse conditions to preserve intention to have lucid dream or to preserve efficiency of induction technique.

Well never mind, then; sorry to repeat previous conversation.

For what it's worth, though:

It may be impossible for you to stay conscious during NREM, but that does not make it so for everyone; "our" minds are by no means all turned off during NREM (I have a feeling yours is not either, BTW). Consciousness is a fairly persistent condition, regardless of our state. I think that your theory may presuppose something that is simply not true, Nfri, and that thought is based on personal experience as well as the experiences told to me by others; all anecdotal, sure, but enough when combined to imply that there is evidence of consciousness during NREM, or at least its potential. It might be a good idea to keep that in mind as you do your research, since ignoring or summarily dismissing evidence that contradicts your hypotheses is never a good idea.

Since we seem to categorically disagree on this subject, I'll try not to post here anymore (though I will still follow your thread with interest).

Originally Posted by Sageous

It may be impossible for you to stay conscious during NREM, but that does not make it so for everyone; "our" minds are by no means all turned off during NREM (I have a feeling yours is not either, BTW). Consciousness is a fairly persistent condition, regardless of our state. I think that your theory may presuppose something that is simply not true, Nfri, and that thought is based on personal experience as well as the experiences told to me by others; all anecdotal, sure, but enough when combined to imply that there is evidence of consciousness during NREM, or at least its potential. It might be a good idea to keep that in mind as you do your research,

You know Sageous, I surely agree with you that light sleep and possibly deep sleep stages are accessible by conciousness exploration, but I don't simply know how to do it... And also I don't know anyone who reliably can.

For me and the rest of us NREM barrier seems like stage without thoughs, memories nor dreams, just nothing...

since ignoring or summarily dismissing evidence that contradicts your hypotheses is never a good idea.

I would NEVER do this! I don't care about my theory, I just care about the truth. And the truth seems like if you're having long unconscious light sleep or deep sleep before aimed REM period for lucid dreaming, it significantly reduces chances to achieve lucidity.

Since we seem to categorically disagree on this subject, I'll try not to post here anymore (though I will still follow your thread with interest).

On the contrary I categorically agree.