DEILD question

[Clidu]

I want to start learning to Deild as i can meditate quiet easily now and my recall is getting better...only problem is im a heavy sleeper and my girlfriend is a light sleeper so if an alarm wakes me after 3 or 4 hours sleep ill also have a slap which will hurt lol....maybr put my alarm on and put my headphones in as i sleep surley thatll wake me up?

[Burke]

If you're comfortable with them you can use earbuds and use an alarm that way. If you sleep on your side you could also try just keeping one ear in so you aren't sleeping on one. Also, if possible find an alarm app that will turn itself off after a short bit. DEILD works best if you don't move or open your eyes after waking (takes some practice) and moving to turn off an alarm can definitely hinder it. An alarm that lasts ~20 seconds is likely enough to wake you up and then turn itself off after a short enough time that you can focus on getting back into a dream. I'd also recommend trying to perform DEILD waking up normally. If you naturally wake up before an alarm or don't need an alarm for the day, natural DEILDs often tend to be easier and more reliable, in my experience. I'll occasionally chain them together on a weekend or day off and it's a great feeling to wake up from an unfinished lucid (maybe you didn't accomplish what you wanted to) and then dive right back into it. I've managed up to 6 in a row or so but I've heard of people getting more. Granted, if you have trouble falling asleep after waking up for the morning then it's likely best to stick with the WBTB method. I'd definitely recommend trying out various times and techniques to do so, since DEILD is probably my favorite method . Happy dreaming!

[ezzolucid]

Hi, I am a big fan of alarm based DEILD and have experimented with dozens of different devices as I too cannot be waking the wife up! So after testing apps, earbuds, dream masks and many other forms of alarms (with auto-shut-offs ) for DEILD I have found that the following is the best thing out there ... I bought a sleeping headband with built in bluetooth speakers. the device is specifically designed to fall asleep in so you cannot feels any bulky speakers when you lie on your side at all and its very comfortable. Its called sleepphones (google it) With this i downloaded an app called 'alarmbud' which allows you to set multiple alarms which then turn off automatically after a few seconds I then sleep with headband on with 5-6 alarms set every 30 mins after about 4 hours of sleep and attempt a DEILD each time Let us know how you get on

[Patience108]

Hi Clidu - both suggestions above are good I think. I am training myself also ; I wake after around 5 or 6 hours sleep - to go to the loo ( I recommend you to drink a glass of water before bed for this) ... Then I sit up for a bit for wbtb...I don't always need to turn the light on and I don't do this every night ...only on a couple of nights a week - that way I am not tiring myself out and can easily manage a wbtb in a darkened room without feeling too sleepy. I have found a short wbtb extremely valuable to wake my mind up enough - it helps yield some good fruits later on in the form of Mild, Dild,Deild and the occasional Wild Then I lay down to sleep with the fan on and earplugs - and with mantras I go to sleep ( mantras are generally about waking up and staying still and reminding myself - I am dreaming - I am dreaming) ...staying self aware basically. Gradually I start to beable to stay still and enter some dreams consciously and Deild a few times - it has taken time and I am still working on it. For me it's about doing it regularly and consistantly. I would love to get a devise to help me but havnt found one I am sure about spending the money on - and coz of the nature of my mind - which is very easily awake I tread carefully in setting up anything that might stress me...

[Patience108]

Hi, I am a big fan of alarm based DEILD and have experimented with dozens of different devices as I too cannot be waking the wife up! So after testing apps, earbuds, dream masks and many other forms of alarms (with auto-shut-offs ) for DEILD I have found that the following is the best thing out there ... I bought a sleeping headband with built in bluetooth speakers. the device is specifically designed to fall asleep in so you cannot feels any bulky speakers when you lie on your side at all and its very comfortable. Its called sleepphones (google it) With this i downloaded an app called 'alarmbud' which allows you to set multiple alarms which then turn off automatically after a few seconds I then sleep with headband on with 5-6 alarms set every 30 mins after about 4 hours of sleep and attempt a DEILD each time Let us know how you get on I have got some of the sleep phones you mention here but I have found the battery life is only about 4 or 5 hours and they need charging again...so I havnt used it much - have you had really good success with it?

[ezzolucid]

hi, ive had great success with it. i put them on after 6 hours sleep so the battery life is not a problem, the only issue is when the alarm sounds it needs to be in rem. the alarm can be anything you choose so i have a gentle harp that turns off after 2 seconds. The volume is just enough to rouse me from sleep so i can deild easily. Soon I will be getting the Aurora which has rem detection so im confident my deild alarm success will skyrocket! :-) Also, what sleep phones do you have? mine are a headband, very comfortable Ezzo

[Patience108]

hi, ive had great success with it. i put them on after 6 hours sleep so the battery life is not a problem, the only issue is when the alarm sounds it needs to be in rem. the alarm can be anything you choose so i have a gentle harp that turns off after 2 seconds. The volume is just enough to rouse me from sleep so i can deild easily. Soon I will be getting the Aurora which has rem detection so im confident my deild alarm success will skyrocket! :-) Also, what sleep phones do you have? mine are a headband, very comfortable Ezzo Thanks - Yes I do have the soft lavender coloured fleecy headband ...it's the only ones I have seen around so far. I have been meaning to give it more attention but I only have one charge up station in the bed room and often have another devise on it - I shall look into setting it up on its own charge station so that when I wake after sufficient sleep I can chose to use them with little fuss. Thanks for the specifics on timing etc too - It's great when you can get first hand advise with these things imo. Good luck with the Aurora - I will be taking a keen interest in your descoveries!

[Sageous]

With all this talk of alarms, this I think needs to be repeated: I'd also recommend trying to perform DEILD waking up normally. If you naturally wake up before an alarm or don't need an alarm for the day, natural DEILDs often tend to be easier and more reliable, in my experience. I'll occasionally chain them together on a weekend or day off and it's a great feeling to wake up from an unfinished lucid (maybe you didn't accomplish what you wanted to) and then dive right back into it. I've managed up to 6 in a row or so but I've heard of people getting more. Granted, if you have trouble falling asleep after waking up for the morning then it's likely best to stick with the WBTB method. I'd definitely recommend trying out various times and techniques to do so, since DEILD is probably my favorite method . In spite of Ezzo's admirable success with alarms, DEILD's really do work better without them. I believe this is true for a couple of reasons: First, DEILD's are literally transitions that take place as you realize that you are waking up, naturally, from a dream, as per the "Dream Exit" part of the acronym. It is preferable that the dream you are exiting is a LD, but you can also notice yourself waking up from a NLD as well, since your waking-life consciousness can tend to wander in before you are fully awake. The reason that exiting a dream is important is because it gives you something to hold onto as you wake up, and something to target as you quickly return to sleep. That something is more than just the dream, but the state of mind you are in at the time you are dreaming (that state being best, again, when you are exiting a LD, but still quite "dreamy" when exiting a NLD). That state might not be present when you are woken up by an alarm, both as a matter of timing (you simply are not dreaming when it goes off) and consciousness (the alarm wakes you up too much) -- which brings me to point 2: Second, though more as an extension of my first point, alarms by design tend to pull you from sleep, delivering you directly from sleep to wake without that all important moment spent realizing that you are waking up, yet still dreaming. This is not helpful to DEILD at all. Yes you can find alarms that gently wake you, or ones that might even stir your awareness a bit before you are fully awake, but generally they just wake you up in a fairly abrupt manner. That abruptness is exactly what you do not want in DEILD, because it causes you to enter the waking world too much, leaving behind the dream you just exited, if there was one. If that happens, then your DEILD is very unlikely to happen. For what it's worth, I also do not recommend using alarms for classic WILD's for the same reason: alarms are simply too good at breaking you away from your dreams to use as a method to help bring about dreams... they don't call them "alarms" for nothing! I think that some misunderstanding about DEILD's has begun to become a sort of common knowledge these days. DEILD's are a remarkably simple WILD transition that are a matter of doing nothing more than realize that you are waking from your dream and -- before you are fully awake, and generally without even opening your eyes -- going immediately back to sleep and returning (generally) to that same dream, with lucidity in hand. So many techniques and processes (i.e., using an alarm, repeating a mantra) have been added to this simple process, making the transition much more complex, and, I assume, difficult... either that, or folks have simply developed techniques for alarm-based WILD's, and are using the term DEILD in a new way (in my mind an incorrect way). Okay, I'm rambling/preaching again, so let me finish with a couple of notes meant directly for Clidu, if he's still with us: First, meditation and recall are actually not necessary for successful DEILD's... they might even get in the way (you are not recalling the dream you just exited, BTW, but are keeping it close, in your present state of mind; make it a memory and you will leave it and your DEILD behind). Try to keep your DEILD as simple as possible (i.e., just hold onto your last dream, and your self-awareness, and let yourself go back to sleep), and it will likely work much better. Also, DEILD's tend to work best very late in the sleep cycle, when your waking-life consciousness is hovering more closely to your sleeping self (and, perhaps not coincidentally, REM periods are much more closely spaced). Setting your alarm. if you must, for 3-4 hours into your cycle might not be allowing yourself enough initial sleep time. Finally, if you can learn to do DEILD's without an alarm, your girlfriend will appreciate the gesture!

[FryingMan]

^^ Just to add my experience (confirming everything Sageous wrote above), I haven't had that many DEILD scenarios, but when they happen, indeed they are basically "effortless." They happened for me late in the sleep cycle, when I'm waking from a LD, and so understand what is happening (transitioning to awake, or at least, transitioning from the dream). By simply maintaining a quiet and dreamy state of mind and lightly considering the dream I was just having, I'd find myself back in the dream again, over and over. IMO, at least for me, DEILDs are not so much something that you make happen, but rather a scenario that you can learn to recognize and let happen.

[Patience108]

With all this talk of alarms, this I think needs to be repeated: In spite of Ezzo's admirable success with alarms, DEILD's really do work better without them. I believe this is true for a couple of reasons: First, DEILD's are literally transitions that take place as you realize that you are waking up, naturaly This makes a lot of sense and I remember Sageous saying it before inanother post. So I would recommend Clidu to listen to Sageous as he has years of experience This got me thinking that when examples of alarms and such get mentioned in the same vein as Deild's then maybe it's more about Eild's or Electronically Induced Lucid Dreams...maybe that's one of the misunderstandings Sageous spoke of?

[ezzolucid]

Ok ok ok erm........... Firstly, there is a confusion arising here as what I practice is actually known as CanWILD ( custom alarm noise wild ) and although i highly respect Sageous and his opinions I have to bring into question how many DEILDS he has undertaken with the use of an alarm. I suspect it is minimal and as such do not believe that he has enough experience using alarms to justify some of the statements above. Please read this in the manner it is intended :-) This is not a hostile post! moreover a friendly response to some of the points raised hoping to get further elaboration. I have have many successful dields where i have awoken naturally and slipped back in. I have had many many more deilds using an alarm and the reason for this is the following statement which i believe to be true .. Being slightly awoken during a dream is more effective than trying to deild after a dream When CanWILD was first posted onto Dreamviews some years ago there simply was no effective way to wake from a dream using an alarm as the technology just didnt exist. Its only in the last year that apps are available that will play a tune or message and then auto-shut-off after a few seconds allowing a dield to take place Before 2014 there were no auto-stop alarms and so the only option for deild was a natural awakening - but things has changed. It is true that the alarm used has to be set in a way so that it only rouses you from your dream just enough for a pearl of awareness to arise The biggest advantage with natural deilds is that you will nearly always be in the correct rem phrase to deild whereas using an alarm is hit and miss but with the Aurora and RemDreamer this problem is eradicated Each night, i put on my headphones, set a few auto-stop-alarms and will nearly always be roused from sleep during a dream making a deild really easy. if i try naturally i may just sleep right through I guess the acronyms have confused the issue slightly. A deild is an entry to a dream from a lucid or non lucid dream but a CanWild is the same but with the use of an alarm So the only issue i have is that Sageous has recommended not using an alarm when he himself may not have had enough (or any) experience with alarms (for deild) to make recommendations on which technique is most effective. thanks Ezzo

[FryingMan]

^^ It is highly dependent on the dreamer, in fact. This forum is just not full of people with huge successes in alarm-based WILD. I know of just two, actually: you, ezzolucid, and sivason. And it took sivason something like 3 years to get really good at it to the point where he could have several short lucids almost any morning he wanted with his alarm approach. One must be *really good* (naturally, or honed over time with effort) at falling back asleep *quickly* for this to work. Not everybody has that ability. I'm solidly in the "too much stimulation and I'm up for hours" category myself. And the threshold of what constitutes "too much" is extremely low. I think alarm approaches should be in everybody's "bag of tricks" to try out, to see if it is compatible with how they sleep and dream. There is no guarantee (in fact I think quite the opposite) that it will work for everybody.

[Sageous]

... So the only issue i have is that Sageous has recommended not using an alarm when he himself may not have had enough (or any) experience with alarms (for deild) to make recommendations on which technique is most effective. Actually, Ezzo, I spent about 3 years back in the '90's using various alarms to attempt what were essentially CanWILD's (though the term didn't exist yet). I had some success, especially with the DreamLight (more in a sec), but at no time was I doing the same thing I was doing when I was DEILD'ing. Also, I found in the end that my CanWILD success did not match the success I had already enjoyed by doing classic WILD's without an alarm, and for the reasons I have already mentioned. I guess the confusion here is that I do not believe that DEILD's are the same as CanWILD's, beyond the fact that both of them are forms of WILD. So what you were talking about really were not DEILD's at all -- which was sort of my point. This is not a matter of semantics, I think. I also hold this opinion on actual experience, and not on guessing or hubris; I really don't talk about things like this unless I can back them up with direct knowledge: Technology didn't burst into being with the smart phone, Ezzo; we really could do things back in the dark ages. Alarms that gently wake you and turn off quickly have been around for decades -- during my run with alarms, I went through three of them, including a very interesting "Zen Alarm Clock" that actually sounded chimes as alarms in a near-perfect "gentle wake-up" manner. Also, I had a Lucidity Institute Dreamlight back then, which worked just like the Aurora and Remdreamer do now, if not better. I found the Dreamlight (which has a gentle wake-up function) worked quite nicely as a REM-catching CanWILD device. So I'm pretty sure that I am not ignorant to alarms; it really would have been nice if you assumed that, rather than deciding that I had never used alarms, so clearly wouldn't know about them. tl;dr: CanWILD is not DEILD. That, I see now, may have been my point. Also, what I know is based on actual experience and not assumptions -- I tried using alarms in very much the manner you describe for years.... I wouldn't have posted here if that were not the case. Also: And it took sivason something like 3 years to get really good at it to the point where he could have several short lucids almost any morning he wanted with his alarm approach. One must be *really good* (naturally, or honed over time with effort) at falling back asleep *quickly* for this to work. Not everybody has that ability. I'm solidly in the "too much stimulation and I'm up for hours" category myself. And the threshold of what constitutes "too much" is extremely low. I think alarm approaches should be in everybody's "bag of tricks" to try out, to see if it is compatible with how they sleep and dream. There is no guarantee (in fact I think quite the opposite) that it will work for everybody. This sort of confirms to me that successful LD'ing, is more about your state of mind [don't worry, FryingMAn, I won't say "Fundamentals!" ] than it is the tricks in your bag. In other words, if you are prepared (as Sivason obviously was), then anything will work. What method you use to become lucid becomes a matter of convenience and not the real driver of your success.

[FryingMan]

This sort of confirms to me that successful LD'ing, is more about your state of mind [don't worry, FryingMAn, I won't say "Fundamentals!" ] than it is the tricks in your bag. In other words, if you are prepared (as Sivason obviously was), then anything will work. What method you use to become lucid becomes a matter of convenience and not the real driver of your success. I agree, with a "however" from my own personal experience: once can ride the fence just barely hovering on the verge of lucidity without getting fully lucid for quite a while. Anything, including "tricks," that helps give that teeny tiny little (or huge, depending on how you look at it) push into full lucidity more consistently is very welcome.

[Sageous]

^^ That is true... and something I agree completely with, given the bulging bag of tricks I personally have slung over my calloused Oneirnautic shoulder...

[ezzolucid]

given the bulging bag of tricks I personally have slung over my calloused Oneirnautic shoulder... Now THATS what I call a clever sentence! :-D Apologies Saqeous, i will be more careful with my presumptions, in fact, I now remeber reading a previous post from you regarding the dreamlight that you used including cassette tapes I will continue CanWild including the Aurora when it finally arrives and see how I get on Can you elaborate why you stopped using dreamlight when you were having initial success with it? Did you simply find that a natural DEILD from a non lucid dream was more effective than canwild? Thank you Ezzo

[Sageous]

Can you elaborate why you stopped using dreamlight when you were having initial success with it? The primary reason I stopped using it was because my Dreamlight stopped working. One big problem with LaBerge's products back then was that they were hand-built (probably by one guy) with very short production runs, which made them simultaneously expensive and unreliable, sort of like a Ferrari.... of course, while they're running, Ferraris are extremely good cars. I tried to fix it a couple of times (with the help of that one guy), but in time I just gave up. I still have it, as sort of a $1,200 paperweight that reminds me of those years. I think, though, that I probably would have stopped using it in time anyway, even if it didn't break. I had bought it as an aid to help me re-learn the skills I had mostly abandoned during the previous decade or so I spent pursuing more material goals, and I had recovered most of what I'd forgotten by the time it broke... Same with CanWILD: Did you simply find that a natural DEILD from a non lucid dream was more effective than canwild? I think, in retrospect, that my CanWILD work was also an attempt to get back in tune with my dreams as quickly and easily as possible. After my LD'ing muscles were back in good tone, I guess I had no need to use alarms anymore. Funny thing, though: the Zen alarm clock, which was also expensive, broke at around the same time as the DreamLight...Maybe a little reverse Law of Attraction going on? I actually rarely DEILD from a NLD; I am pretty much always lucid to some degree as I'm exiting a DEILD-worthy dream. The lucidity came in the first place from either DILD or, more often, classic WILD, though it sometimes arrived just seconds before waking. But yes, on the occasions that I did do DEILD's from NLD's, I found it much simpler and more reliable than CanWILD had been. But that is apples and oranges, I think; CanWILD really needs to be compared to doing a "natural" WBTB and classic WILD*, because that alarm -- no matter how gentle -- tends to wake you to a point beyond the borders of a DEILD transition, where you can practically return to your dream without really waking up at all. And, in a comparison with WBTB + classic WILD, CanWILD just came up short: using an alarm was, for me, less helpful. Not just less helpful, but also potentially counterproductive: The alarms, no matter how gentle, tended to wake me up too much, and made LD'ing a bit more of a challenge than waking naturally. * I find DEILD's far, far easier than WBTB + classic WILD, BTW.