Thread: Easiest way to get quickest results? New study of 44,742 participants

Continued… Imagery did well also, but self talk had the edge. The study's authors put forward a possible reason for this: "...it appears that self-talk is perceived to be beneficial, possibly because it is simpler to learn than imagery, which shows that some people struggle to learn imagery (Cumming and Williams, 2012)."

So again, self talk while focusing on either process or outcome showed to be the strongest method and I believe this will translate over to lucid dreaming self talk. It was not clear to me why they used "I can" instead of "I will" in the first table in the OP above. "I can" seems to be weaker than "I will" in that it "I can" suggests possibilities and "I will" suggests 100% confidence, but perhaps self doubt has an opportunity to creep in and negate the effect..?

Lucid dreaming examples:

"I can realize I am dreaming tonight!"

"I will realize I am dreaming tonight!"

What about: "I am getting better and better at recognizing I am dreaming!" (or realizing)

Interestingly, instruction-style imagery had a negative effect compared to the control group. (The control group got neutral instructions, so that group improved more slowly than most of the other groups, except the group getting instruction-style imagery. The control group seemingly only improved through the process of repetition or practice). Perhaps the instructions were too wordy (see 1st table in OP) combined with the idea that "some people struggle to learn imagery."


*Please chime in with your thoughts. If you don't chime in, you can still follow the thread by "subscribing" to it in the thread tools right above the first post of this page.

Nice. I'm a visual person so the imagery training speaks to me. One might adjust the imagery process and outcome instructions to something like: "Picture yourself dreaming and becoming lucid, and imagine what you would do after becoming lucid," and "picture yourself waking up from an amazing lucid dream and imagine how you would feel as you are writing it down in your dream journal." I'll try it out.

What is the time span in which this research was conducted? It is possible that someone under the control group could progress slower (due to complexity) but more surely over a longer period of time, for example.

Regarding "can" and "will", I theorize that saying "will" implicates 100% confidence but it doesn't necessarily mean our minds will truly believe or feel that confidence. If I think back in my own personal experience, I've told myself for hours before going to sleep "I will lucid dream tonight. I will be aware that I am dreaming." but it never happened, and maybe each time after I subconsciously dwindle in my expectation. In the book A Field Guide to Lucid Dreaming, it is suggested that thinking in present tense is the best way to eliminate doubts that your affirmation will come true, "I am lucid and aware in my dream".

Some people are auditory also, so I wonder if listening to a track on repeat saying "you are aware that you are dreaming" would help those types of people.

I am finding some additional research that may add to this discussion and I will report back on that soon. For now, I wanted to clarify a couple of things that I left out of the OP due to posting it hastily while on my way out the door that day, thus the "to be continued" notation.

I should have included discussion that I believe that most people would be best served by including a number of additional "tried and true" approaches to maximize their chances of having consistent lucid dreams and achieving a high level of lucidity. Self talk, once the optimal wording is figured out, does seem to be one of the easiest methods to use. Although I can see optimally constructed self talk alone allowing you to become lucid through an easy to duplicate practice, I am quite certain that the results will be significantly multiplied and magnified with the addition of practices like WBTB and properly done RC's and RRC's (helps with memory and self awareness) during waking hours.

I am also not happy about wording of the "lucid dreaming examples" in my 2nd post. The first example in my 2nd post was converting the study's "self talk - outcome" example to lucid dreaming and it just sounds odd to me. That is not to say that an example that sounds the best or worst to the individual is the best or worst. As a matter of fact, there is one study that tested two opposite styles of self talk and the best one, according to the results, will likely surprise you (more to come on that). The second example in my post is a little closer to what is commonly suggested to use and the third one was just an idea converted from a common positive affirmation.

@TheApprentice and @andrunoyola - Thank you for contributing to the discussion! I like both of your examples. I will try to add more thoughts soon.

I will! vs Will I?

A very interesting study compared two opposite examples of self talk "I will (do something)" versus "Will I (do something)" with the results showing that "Will I (do something)" outperformed the "I will" significantly.
Motivating Goal-Directed Behavior Through Introspective Self-Talk: The Role of the Interrogative Form of Simple Future Tense
According to "The Frontal Cortex" blog at ScienceBlogs by Jonah Lehrer:

"Why is interrogative self-talk more effective? Subsequent experiments by the scientists suggested that the power of the “Will I?” condition resides in its ability to elicit intrinsic motivation. (We are intrinsically motivated when we are doing an activity for ourselves, because we enjoy it. In contrast, extrinsic motivation occurs when we’re doing something for a paycheck or any “extrinsic” reward.) By interrogating ourselves, we set up a well-defined challenge that we can master. And it is this desire for personal fulfillment – being able to tell ourselves that we solved the anagrams – that actually motivates us to keep on trying."

Wray Herbert wrote in his Scientific American article "The Willpower Paradox":

It indicates that those with questioning minds were more intrinsically motivated to change. They were looking for a positive inspiration from within, rather than attempting to hold themselves to a rigid standard. Those asserting will lacked this internal inspiration, which explains in part their weak commitment to future change. Put in terms of addiction recovery and self-improvement in general, those who were asserting their willpower were in effect closing their minds and narrowing their view of their future. Those who were questioning and wondering were open-minded—and therefore willing to see new possibilities for the days ahead.

A user named "jubjub" on the "obesitytalk" forum also brought up the same study and gave a thorough explanation for the seemingly surprising results of the study:

"The reasons are twofold. First, the interrogative, by its very form, elicits answers— and within those answers are strategies for actually carrying out the task. Imagine, for instance, that you’re readying yourself for an important meeting in which you must pitch an idea and marshal support for it. You could tell yourself, “I’m the best. This is going to be a breeze,” and that might give you a short-term emotional boost.

But if you instead ask, “Can I make a great pitch?” the research has found that you provide yourself something that reaches deeper and lasts longer. You might respond to yourself, “Well, yes, I can make a great pitch. In fact, I’ve probably pitched ideas at meetings two dozen times in my life.” You might remind yourself of your preparation. “Sure, I can do this. I know this material inside out and I’ve got some great examples to persuade the people who might be skeptical.” You might also give yourself specific tactical advice. “At the last meeting like this, I spoke too quickly— so this time I’ll slow down. Sometimes in these situations, I get flustered by questions, so this time I’ll take a breath before responding.”

Mere affirmation feels good and that helps. But it doesn’t prompt you to summon the resources and strategies to actually accomplish the task.

The second reason is related. Interrogative self-talk, the researchers say, “may inspire thoughts about autonomous or intrinsically motivated reasons to pursue a goal.”

As ample research has demonstrated, people are more likely to act, and to perform well, when the motivations come from intrinsic choices rather than from extrinsic pressures.

Declarative self-talk risks bypassing one’s motivations. Questioning self-talk elicits the reasons for doing something and reminds people that many of those reasons come from within.

The words we use

The words we use are important according to multiple studies. One study compared "I can't" to "I don't."
http://www.bauer.uh.edu/vpatrick/doc...versusCant.pdf

"The "can't" framing implies an external restraint, which feels disempowering (even if you imposed the restraint on yourself). You might even be tempted to disobey solely to assert your independence. To say that you "don't" do something, by contrast, suggests autonomy, as well as long-term commitment. Who wouldn't rather be the self-directed, principled type who doesn't have more than one beer, or check email after 9pm, et cetera, than the rule-oppressed drudge who can't?" - Oliver Burkeman, "This column will change your life: don't say 'I can't' if you can say 'I don't'" - The Guardian

Self talk and self esteem

One study suggests that the power of self talk may be limited to those with high self esteem, and then only to a limited degree. On the contrary, the same positive self talk could have a negative effect on those with "low self esteem", the people who need it the most. Study title: Positive Self-Statements - Power for Some, Peril for Others

What does all this mean for lucid dreamers?

That is what I hope discover through discussions in this thread. I am guessing that, like many lucid dreaming practices, each person finds what works best for them within a framework of solid lucid dreaming fundamentals. I do believe that self talk, worded optimally and likely personalized, can be the easiest tool to deploy as part of one's arsenal.

I find the studies very interesting fogelbise - thanks It's nice to see that there something about my " crazy questioning mind" that's being seen and appreciated here in such useful constructive manners

I'm a questioner myself so I was realy happy to see how useful this can be for self development. I have self questioned for as long as I can remember - at times it has had negative undertones but interesting and luckily these have as I grow more mature especially ( in years lead to positive developments and new allyways opening ( as it says in the research ) new ways to challenge myself etc. I am the sort of person who often asks herself things like " Could I do that?" " How would I cope with that"" And more seriously " Will I cope with death when it comes?" - I seem to have asked quite intensely since being a nipper - thank goodness I can have a laugh too

With my LD practice I often stop to RRC and RC - at these times I usualy have the internal questions like " Am I dreaming?" " Could I be dreaming right now" etc and it's getting some good results. I am keen to see how I can increase the efficiency by phasing some questions in the way it's suggested here in your research...so does that mean asking myself more questions like ;

" Will I lucid dream tonight?"
" How will I maintain and enjoy my lucid dream tonight?"
" Will I manage to wake up for a good wbtb tonight?"
" will I remember to remember and stay aware tonight?"

It seems to make sense it would help

This is a very interesting topic! I have been thinking about this a lot recently in terms of intention and manifestation. I have long believed that the words we use (both mentally and out loud) can change the outcome. I have been using a small journal that I carry with me at all times to write affirmations in. I have been experimenting with how different words and phrases feel to me. I have decided that using phrases like "I will have a lucid dream tonight" is not effective for me because it is oriented in the future instead of the present moment. If my subconscious takes "I will have a lucid dream tonight" literally, what I create is a constant state of "I will...." instead of manifesting in the present moment. Since the present moment is all we ACTUALLY experience, I have been working on strengthening my intention HERE and NOW. So....I have been using phrases like:

I am a lucid dreamer.
I am strengthening my dreaming practice.
I am increasing my awareness of my experience.
I am committed to my dreaming practice.

These present moment statements are effective for me because they not only keep me focused on the present moment, but they are also easier to believe because they aren't projecting a future experience that my self-doubt can question.

I love this stuff!

My main induction method is primarily tactile in mode, using visualisation as a auxiliary function to further the 'feelings' of orientation outside of my physical body. When I use this tactile imaginational technique it produces a sense of pulling or pressure on my body and these sensations increase the closer I get to the vibrational state. When the method is continued into the vibrational state the automatic tactile effects become highly erratic and intense, I do not think that part can be overstated, it is very disconcerting at first. In my personal case this procedure has been most effective, perhaps by a factor of 2 or 3 when compared to auditory affirmations or visual methods alone.