Thread: Natural lucid dreamers

Originally Posted by Hormoz

Are you a natural lucid dreamer?
As I said they may not train for lucid dreaming but may do other things that may help them have lucid dreams.
I don't think children are different from adults.
Naps could be a good way to WILD as you can enter rem without having to WBTB in most of the times.
By beginning I mean from the start(0 years old and 0 months old when you came to this world).

I don't consider myself natural because I don't lucid dream every day and out of no where. What helped me lucid dream throughout my life was intent,curiousity, and influences. No one in my childhood had a clearly defined way of lucid dreaming though.(Like how to DILD or WILD) Basically from this thread I've been getting the idea that Natural could be just a random lucid occurrence but they have to know what a dream is. However, if that happens is it really considered natural without intent and to be having them everyday? Wouldn't that be considered more like a special or kind of weird occurrence?(Sorry if I repeated how weird it is but I'm agreeing with your thoughts if you said this)Children are different than adults in certain ways. I've taken a class that taught child psychology before and have been around kids for a good amount of time.Even when you compare their attention span and memory retention you can tell the difference. I agree with you on the nap and WILD thing and about the beginning. Thanks again for replying. I'm glad I was able to understand you and the others better.

DreamCafe, but combining, I mean being able to have dreams that contain self-awareness, memory, and the ability to learn.

Hormoz, children cannot start lucid dreaming the day they are born because they still lack the self-awareness to identify something as coming from them from the first person perspective. It takes about 3-4 years for their self-awareness to grow to this point.

Many have different ideas about what naturals are some say they learned lucid dreaming when they were a child.
Basically naturals are people who are lucid in almost every dream they have I think so I think a non-natural can become a natural too but if the definition is something else it might be different but the definition is not really that clear and people may have many different ideas about it.
But i think the one thing that is clear is that when people mean naturals they mean people that are really good at lucid dreaming.

"I've taken child psychology before and have been around kids for a good amount of time.Even when you compare their attention span and memory retention you can tell the difference. I agree with you on the nap and WILD thing and about the beginning. Thanks again for replying. I'm glad I was able to understand you and the others better."

I didn't mean the way that most of them act I mean the way that they are.

Originally Posted by dolphin

Children cannot start lucid dreaming the day they are born because they still lack the self-awareness to identify something as coming from them from the first person perspective. It takes about 3-4 years for their self-awareness to grow to this point.

I know. That's why I agree. I didn't understand that's what he meant by beginning before though.

Originally Posted by Hormoz

Many have different ideas about what naturals are some say they learned lucid dreaming when they were a child.
Basically naturals are people who are lucid in almost every dream they have I think so I think a non-natural can become a natural too but if the definition is something else it might be different but the definition is not really that clear and people may have many different ideas about it.
But i think the one thing that is clear is that when people mean naturals they mean people that are really good at lucid dreaming.

"I've taken child psychology before and have been around kids for a good amount of time.Even when you compare their attention span and memory retention you can tell the difference. I agree with you on the nap and WILD thing and about the beginning. Thanks again for replying. I'm glad I was able to understand you and the others better."

I didn't mean the way that most of them act I mean the way that they are.

Okay. At least we can all agree about something. "By the way they are" do you mean in a physical sense? We all know there are differences and similarities in both physical and emotional sense so idk what you mean yet. Sorry. I hope I don't frustrate you by asking so much questions.

Np It's okay .
It may be a little hard to explain I mean like for example there are nothing children can't learn and adults can or the other way.
I mean their ability in doing some things for example not the way the most of them may think.

Originally Posted by DreamCafe11

If you don't mind me jumping in again I still don't get how you can learn something and not know the process. That is confusing. Also,is lucid dreaming really not natural? I can understand everyday being too much but is frequent lucid dreaming bad?

Do you remember the process you used to learn to walk? Speak? Brush your teeth? Negotiate the rules of a backyard game with friends? Get along with those friends? There are by far more functions in life that we have learned without ever considering the process we're using to learn them, much less knowing them, than we will ever learn with an understanding of the process.

A natural LD'er could certainly have learned to become lucid without ever giving much thought to the process. I for one do not consider myself a natural (I still must struggle to gain the higher levels of lucidity I seek), but I can assure you I had no idea of some official process or technique as I was laying down every night in my teens to have dreams wherein I knew I was dreaming (terms like WILD and DILD, much less their techniques, were decades away from being invented when I was in my teens).

To me LD'ing is literally not natural, because you are attempting to do something that runs thoroughly counter to the basic design for human sleep and dreams. When the truly natural format for dreams pointedly includes a parameter that says we should not be self-aware (aka, awake) while we are dreaming (aka, asleep), I can't help but conclude that trying to do the opposite (be lucid) is natural. All the techniques we learn, the struggles we make, the tiny steps we take over great amounts of time toward being able to do something that seems so simple on paper are indicators that we are swimming upstream against a fairly strong current, that current being the natural rules for sleep and dreams... and even after all that we still have trouble fighting the current.

Yes, lucid dreaming is not natural, but there's nothing wrong with that. Just as frequent flying (or driving, or cooking with a microwave, or air conditioning a room, or any of a thousand other things we do as humans that were not wired into our genes) is thoroughly unnatural but not harmful overall, frequent lucid dreaming is certainly not harmful.

Originally Posted by dolphin

Something natural is something that is NOT caused by human kind. So, if only humans can lucid dream, then it is not natural, but if other animals can, then it is. Various primates and elephants also have the dreams, memory, self-awareness, and learning ability needed to lucid dream. It can't yet be proven that these other animals with the abilities needed for lucid dreams can have them, so it can't yet be proven whether lucid dreaming is natural or not.

I'm not sure I can agree with this assertion -- indeed, it seems a bit Victorian to me. I think if an elephant or chimpanzee were to choose to have LD's then they too would also not be doing something natural, without ever once being human. Other creatures than us, I think, ought to be permitted to have the potential to rise above their programming and do something unnatural.

When I use the term natural in this context I mean that the lucid dreamer never tried to learn or doesn't remember how they learned to lucid dream. It doesn't mean that they get lucid dreams every night or even very often it is just a useful term to use to distinguish them from those who actively tried to induce lucid dreaming for the first time.

Originally Posted by DreamCafe11

I've been lucid dreaming for most of my life,curious about it and don't consider myself talented.But now that I think about it the main cause of it was my fear of obe,spirits, and dream meanings coming true.But I don't pay attention to obe or dream meanings anymore. Thoughts about spirits...sometimes.

The interest in dreams I mentioned in my post could be driven by curiosity but it is often driven by fear of a nightmare or closure with some reocuring dream. I just emphasized curiosity to keep the length of the post down. Unfortunatly, I think many if not most naturals started out fearing some nightmares.

Do you remember the process you used to learn to walk? Speak? Brush your teeth? Negotiate the rules of a backyard game with friends? Get along with those friends? There are by far more functions in life that we have learned without ever considering the process we're using to learn them, much less knowing them, than we will ever learn with an understanding of the process.

I was thinking about that too but to me lucid dreaming is different. From the moment you are able to understand what a lucid dream is shouldn't you be aware, even a little, of how it started? How you felt that day? or What thought was going through your mind before and during that first impacting moment?

A natural LD'er could certainly have learned to become lucid without ever giving much thought to the process. I for one do not consider myself a natural (I still must struggle to gain the higher levels of lucidity I seek), but I can assure you I had no idea of some official process or technique as I was laying down every night in my teens to have dreams wherein I knew I was dreaming (terms like WILD and DILD, much less their techniques, were decades away from being invented when I was in my teens).

What constitutes higher level of lucidity though? If you are aware it's a dream,are able to find your way around lack of control,and have your waking memories with you what more do you need? What stumbling blocks do you come across? I think I read that part of your past somewhere too. I think its nice that you were able to start that way because its like reading a book but without spoilers. Even though you might get lost more than those who have a guide you find your way around it. Sorry if it sounds confusing but that is the best way i could describe it for now.

To me LD'ing is literally not natural, because you are attempting to do something that runs thoroughly counter to the basic design for human sleep and dreams. When the truly natural format for dreams pointedly includes a parameter that says we should not be self-aware (aka, awake) while we are dreaming (aka, asleep), I can't help but conclude that trying to do the opposite (be lucid) is natural. All the techniques we learn, the struggles we make, the tiny steps we take over great amounts of time toward being able to do something that seems so simple on paper are indicators that we are swimming upstream against a fairly strong current, that current being the natural rules for sleep and dreams... and even after all that we still have trouble fighting the current.

Sorry, I don't know much about the literal parts of what makes dreams, dreams so you are probably right about it. But if you think about it in the terms of "fighting the current" than why does the current let you ride it at times? I think for me it has been like the waves. (Current's are considered dangerous so I guess that's why I prefer waves too) I can see how lucid dreaming can have more complications but there are times when it feels like its okay to play or do what you want in the waves.(Like calmer waves?) But than again there are those moments when you get thrown off and back to non lucidity...Perhaps it isn't natural that we go against our dreaming mind to stay or get lucid everyday but I think we were mean't to have lucidity because when it became known it became possible and it was fine, even for only a moment. Like we knocked on lucidity's door and it let us in. Other times we knocked on it's door and it kicked us out. Than the last time it let us in, it let us stay longer until we got on it's nerve and it kicked us out again.

Yes, lucid dreaming is not natural, but there's nothing wrong with that. Just as frequent flying (or driving, or cooking with a microwave, or air conditioning a room, or any of a thousand other things we do as humans that were night wired into our genes) is thoroughly unnatural but not harmful overall, frequent lucid dreaming is certainly not harmful.

^.^ Okay. Guess that has been proven throughout time but just knowing why you saw it that way is helpful.

Other creatures than us, I think, ought to be permitted to have the potential to rise above their programming and do something unnatural.

That's evolution and that is okay. But I can't imagine furrys living in our world yet.

When I use the term natural in this context I mean that the lucid dreamer never tried to learn or doesn't remember how they learned to lucid dream. It doesn't mean that they get lucid dreams every night or even very often it is just a useful term to use to distinguish them from those who actively tried to induce lucid dreaming for the first time.

"Doesn't remember how they learned to lucid dream"...I think the word "learned" throws me off. Could you mean "Doesn't remember how they got lucid"...So they just knew what a dream or lucid dream was and didn't intend to have one. Became lucid and woke up not knowing how they got lucid if they weren't thinking about it. Than went to sleep the next night and randomly became lucid again not knowing how and it continued until it became routine. Seeing it that way you could consider it as a innate gift.(Excluding those who don't want to lucid dream) However, if it wasn't them making themselves lucid it would have to be something else. Maybe physical?

The interest in dreams I mentioned in my post could be driven by curiosity but it is often driven by fear of a nightmare or closure with some reoccurring dream. I just emphasized curiosity to keep the length of the post down. Unfortunately, I think many if not most naturals started out fearing some nightmares.

'Okay. I pretty much understand what you mean now so its all good. : 3

I mean their ability in doing some things

I think this sentence helps me understand what your trying to tell me. Some things adults do, children are capable of doing and vice versa.

there are nothing children can't learn and adults can

But there are also things that children can learn that adults can learn. Perhaps we are having somewhat of a language barrier but for the most part I understand what you are trying to say to me. : ) So I'm okay. Thanks.