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    Thread: PseudoWILDs

    1. #1
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      PseudoWILDs

      I can’t do the traditional WILD with keeping the awareness during the whole process. I either can’t fall asleep or can’t do the transition. The way how I am able to “WILD” is by setting an intent to notice that I am dreaming later, when the dream starts (or to notice the end of the transition). Although it sounds a little bit MILDish, I still do it as WILD, but the anchor keeping me connected with the real world is as subtle as it can be.

      Today, I was unable to sleep, tired after several hours of low quality sleep (including a string of FAs, with one very low quality lucid), I decide to get up but I feel groggy, so I just put a big cushion under my head and close my eyes again, thinking that I could try to WILD or just closed my eyes and watch HI/dreamlets for a while.
      My mind wanders, I daydream a bit and watch HIs and dreamlets and minidreams and my daydreaming mixes with it. It’s all unstable, going from thought to thought, from image to image. I interact with it through my daydreaming. I am keeping my consciousness but I would say I lost “situational awareness”.
      At some point, there was some music and I said to myself, that this music is in my head and not outside, so I can try “listening in” (I read something Raduga-related the day before but only briefly). I was able to make the music louder and I started to see outlines of a room through my eyes (a different room than my real room). It worked! I also tried some phantom movements. But it receded slightly and I felt myself in a bed again (a different bed than my real bed, this was a dream bed). I focused on the music again and it again worked but my vision was still bad and I had an idea to open my dream eyes, I did it and it worked. Then I slowly tried to get up, worried about moving in reality, but at that point, I realized it is more stable than I thought and simply got up, I was lucid and standing in the room. Then I had a short LD.
      After waking up from this at first, I thought I WILDed but then I realized, that I actually did the whole "transition" while I was already dreaming. And that what I thought was a HI/dreamlet was actually a dream. Maybe an unstable and just formed dream, but a dream. The whole experience took between 20 and 25 minutes.

      We have these definitions:
      WILD - going directly to the dream, staying conscious for the whole time
      DILD - realizing “I am dreaming” after a period of unconscious sleep or in the middle of the dream

      I see the possibility of something in-between (getting to the dream after a period of semiconscious, confused, HI-drunk state). It’s like setting for yourself a path of breadcrumbs and then following the path. Never losing the path but somewhat forgetting what I am doing and what the breadcrumbs mean, just knowing that there is something good at the end of the path.

      A similar in-between technique for me is VILD. It can have these outcomes for me:
      a) I slip into a semi-lucid dream, I think I am still daydreaming but I am in fact dreaming.
      b) At some point, I realize “I am not visualizing this” or “this is not a daydream anymore” and get lucid.
      c) I slip into unconscious NREM sleep but then the moment I start to dream, I notice that I am dreaming (“wait, I am not visualizing this”).
      d) I have a DILD later, although it usually isn’t “I am dreaming, this is not real” realization but more like “I am doing something conscious and that what I am doing is dreaming”. Like noticing that something is happening, not questioning reality.

      I see c) and d) as clear DILDs. a) is basically a failure but can be good fun and is only a small step from turning into b). b) is the in-between situation or following breadcrumbs. I daydream with the intention to notice when the daydream changes into a real dream and this eventually happens (although it can take me a while to notice).

      What do you think? Are these all DILDs? Can a clear-cut line be drawn to separate WILDs and DILDs (MILD-like, achieved through autosuggestion)? Where do you draw the line? Or is there a grey spectrum between these?

    2. #2
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      Your issues seem remarkably similar to mine in some respect. I too rarely seem to pull off a 'classic' or 'textbook' WILD. I also recognise the nuances in the transition stages you mention, including the visualisation, the dreamlets and the mini-dreams.

      For example post-WBTB I tried to drop off to sleep normally. At first, I remember consiously visualising on purpose (initially in my minds eye) a route (aka "breadcrumbs") to take ouside my house and onto my street. The visualisation (without me being 'aware' after) formed a dreamlet/dream of myself walking out into the street from my house. However I then noticed an incongruous object appear (like the shape of a car) on the footpath. I noticed it (as not part of my visualisation) and this jolted me out of the dream and back to 'reality' in bed. If I have correctly understood, this sound similar to your VWILD attempts?

      Ironically though I had a DILD this same morning, post-WBTB.

      Back to your classification.
      In my dream journal I sometimes add a question mark after entering it as a WILD. This is due to the odd (long) transition state itself at the start. Sometimes I feel that the transition is a 'dream', akin to an FA perhaps? (E.g. Where does it end/start?) I feel there is an element of subjectivity (regarding WILD) where everybody's experience differs to some degree. (My opinion/hypothesis).

      As a side note, I often find on morning reflection I notice a dream event is often a series of dream scenarios rather than seperate dreams as such. (WBTB/awakenings aside).

      I think if your visualisation gives you DILDs after then that is good. That's how I look at it with my practice. I guess we should not get bogged down with what happens during transition as long as we get some result and we learn from it.

      To paraphrase, () I don't think the "noise" (HI, hallucinations, et al) is that important in regard to WILD - they are merely "signposts" to the eventual desired goal. Ironically in order to WILD a person needs to technically fall asleep.

      In answer to your question I would say (from experience) that (c) and (d) are probably DILD.
      With (a) and (b) I'm not sure? In fact they sound like what I get (see above). I have to judge mine case by case. I will sit on the fence with the former two, although if I'm pushed (a) to me does sound like (V)WILD as such.

      No doubt there will be people who WILD on a more regular basis could chime in and answer better than me.
      Last edited by Highlander; 04-08-2021 at 05:15 PM.
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    3. #3
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      My problem with the traditional WILD is falling asleep. It is my problem for any technique after a WBTB. Often even for something as small as setting an intention. Insomnia (the fake one usually - the sleep state misperception) is my worst enemy. I am learning to know it and to manage it but I think it is a part of me and finding my ways around it may be better than trying to push through.
      The other problem is the transition. Hypnagogia is easy. But going in and out of hypnagogia for an hour and a half with nothing more happening is frustrating (that's my record). When I feel that I am close, the anticipation begins to be too much, waking me up. The big downside is that it trains my brain to look for the signposts (and really, I am from the no signposts/ignoring the noise school, I just can't do it) and I can't sleep for the rest of the night, sometimes the night after that too, because I notice when I get very close to sleep. It really messes up with my sleep.
      Because of this, I sometimes "wake up" into the vibrations, without even trying/wanting to WILD. I often have a dream body afterwards, sometimes I can move it a bit, but it is too unstable and I never manage to enter a dream. It always collapses very quickly. The best I was able to do was this - I was standing in our garden door and I sat down on a step there because I knew I had to transition slowly. And then I was thinking "What am I doing, I am already out of my bedroom" and then it collapsed and I was back in my bed.
      I don't try it on purpose anymore, not after a WBTB, because I don't want to pay a day or two of insomnia for being able to move my dream body legs. I think with another 10 or 20 attempts, I would find my way through it but at the moment, I don't want to.

      V-WILD is a way for me how to bypass all this. But I still feel like I have to trade off some self-awareness for being able to fall asleep and to get the visualization going. So I start with a completely conscious and controlled visualization (location in detail, senses) and then I let go off a bit and move to more daydreaming mode, letting my subconscious do the most of the work while being a sort of manager, steering it where I want. I like to interact with the imagined plot and talk to DCs - this really gets it going but the risk of losing all self-awareness is high. It is important not to analyze it or question it too early - when the subconscious does something but not everything, like the object on your footpath - it is not yet stable at that point. Better to question it 5 minutes into the dream than too soon. Or lost the self-awareness completely and regain it later. This makes it different from a fully conscious transition - it is not only almost impossible to tell where the daydream ends and the real dream starts, it is better not to even try to tell.

      At the moment, I like to try 7 hours into my sleep to get the insomnia anxiety out of the way. I can be much relaxed when I am already rested and not too anxious to fall asleep.

      No matter what it was, I am happy about that “WILD” I described in the first half of my first post. That one was without visualization but with strong intention to notice when the dream starts and the self-awareness checking in and letting go again every minute or two. I think it is more WILD than DILD when done this way, although it doesn’t fit the textbook definition.
      It happened in a bonus sleep time, in the “snooze time”. I wake up, perfectly rested, but it’s still easy to go back to sleep almost instantly. I will certainly try to experiment with this timing more, it is risk free and I think it could work for me.
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    4. #4
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      I know what you mean with the traditonal WILD and the sleep issue. I normally always deviate from my anchor and I cannot rest on my back, or the itching starts, etc. I've tried on my sides but I lose awareness and sleep too well normally.

      It may be a case of you having to go through your dream journal/recordings and noting down what seemed to work and what didn't on that particular attempt/night. We often overlook certain things. I know I do. Reflecting on your past experiences may help in this regard. E.g. You may come across a particular pattern or routine; even a counterproductive one perhaps. With me I seemed to notice that I had more of a chance if I was really tired. I also noted that I was poor at initiating WILDS, but I started to have spontaneously more DEILD opportunites instead, yet I did not plan this beforehand.

      There may be things you can do to help your progress in waking life too. (I'm aware you may have already tried all these, but I will mention them anyhow.) You could try a pre-meditation exercise or some form of relaxation routine? Try a shorter WBTB if you cannot sleep after? Maybe try your WILD experiments when you know you don't have a big day ahead like a weekend. Then you might have nothing to lose in trying.

      Like you, I must admit I would be frustrated at spending nearly 90 minutes just drifing in and out, seemingly going nowhere. I've probably been worse where I just lie there, seemingly wasting precious sleep time. Often I gave up rather than force it. The insomnia - anxiety cycle can be hard to break. However you have to remember though sometimes during your attempt that you may find yourself nearly there with little or no noise, especially if you 'see' a bedroom/bed scene, etc. E.g. when you had the vibrations, etc. Often I've just rolled to the right in the hope it is my dreambody, rather than my sleeping one. (Yes I did get that worry am I 'asleep'/dreaming, including the thought I might be falling out of bed or sleepwalking instead.)

      If you have found that V-WILD is a better option for you than conventional WILD then that is great. (One thing I tried was going through my daytime route around my house or outside. (I even looked at Google street maps to improve my mental route making, etc. Apart from visualisation though you will find trying to invoke the other senses helps enourmously too.) I think through experience you will find a path that works for you without sacrificing too much sleep.

      Good luck.
      Last edited by Highlander; 04-13-2021 at 07:59 PM.
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    5. #5
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      Thank you for your advice.
      Yes, I am making notes and getting to know myself and my sleep better. Sometimes it's like every day surprises me. Yesterday I tried VILD again and failed, today I was too lazy, kept self-awareness for 10 minutes to see if I am in the mood for WILD, was too lazy for that too, so I simply told myself "if I see something, it's a dream" as a catch-all for both WILD transition and DILDs and got two DILDs out of it, which almost shocked me because I gave some time to textbook MILD (mantras, imagining getting lucid) before and it did nothing for me.
      I think for both WILDs and DILDs, the answer for me is simply being relaxed about it, not trying too hard. And the same for DEILD, it's like I can't do it when I really want to and then I do it almost by accident when I don't care.
      Which means it all should get much better and easier the more I get used to it. I like that idea.
      I already do tiny WBTBs (natural awakenings only, sometimes bathroom break) and I work from home and can sleep as much as I want. So it's really all in my head and I also need to get more relaxed about it.

    6. #6
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      A weird thing happened to me today.

      I had a plan to do WILD at a specific time but no alarm set for it. I woke up some time before, tried to sleep again, had some troubles falling asleep and can't say how much I slept or when I fall asleep.
      At one moment, I was dreaming and I felt some back pain and decided it is a good time to change position, take another pillow and try to WILD.
      Yes, I was dreaming! It was a light dream (not too vivid or immersive) but it was a dream, not HH or HI or a dreamlet, it was going for at least two minutes and had a plot and everything. It was like a part of my consciousness was watching the dream and another small part of my consciousness was compartmentalized aside and thinking about the WILD, without noticing the dream.
      The moment I moved and reached for the pillow, it all connected and I was like WTF I've just done.

      It was like when you can count or meditate but still think about something else on the side. Or like (mental) multitasking. I don't know if this is normal, sort of normal (related to my sleep state misperception or ADHD), a superskill or a beginning of a mental illness.
      I think it's related to how I got lucid in some of my LDs - not being prelucid in the dream and questioning it from the "inside" but realizing "i am dreaming" from the "outside".
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    7. #7
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      I managed to fail a WILD in a completely new way today.
      It went well, I was falling asleep quickly in a very natural way, changing position when I wanted to, listening to rain outside. I got through the transition semi-lucidly, there was a sort of dream but a very light dream, it felt like being there a little bit while still being in reality, I still could feel my body ad hear the rain, it felt more like visual thinking than a dream. So I waited a little bit longer and gradually lost the bits of lucidity I had. It evolved in a dream of me trying to WILD in my childhood home, without me noticing the change.
      I remember the whole experience relatively well, there was no blackout, I was conscious the whole time. But the parts of the brain needed for being lucid and for analytical thinking simply gave up.
      The transition from the light imagery to the dream was completely seamless. The transition of the story from WILDing in my bed to WILDing in my childhood house was also completely smooth. Like the "boiling a frog" metaphor.
      This is frustrating but much better than failing by not being able to fall asleep. I just need to get the balance right. The only problem with my WILD attempts is that no matter how many times I try, every time it's different.

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