Thread: Stop Drop and Roll. Why Lucidology and Nicholas Newport are creating misinformation.

Originally Posted by moonshine

In my mind human physiology must have a way of determining whether the mind has drifted asleep. I've no idea if this particular theory is right, but it does chime with my admittedly limited WILD experiences.

Interesting point Moonshine, and as you know I always respect your opinion, as we generally share the same distaste for nonsense and pseudoscience.

I'm unsure if the body would need to be aware of the conscious minds current state in the way newport suggests, because I think it is a huge oversimplifcation and misleading way of looking at the human system. If you consider the body to be the tool of the brain/mind, then you could consider the argument in a similar way to this statement:

Does a car know when the driver is no longer in it?

However in reality, with the human brain-body scenario, the car and the driver are one organism. So things are not this simple.

I suspect what happens whilst falling asleep is not some kind of divide between mind and body. I suspect that brain/mind and body fall asleep in unison. I would imagine the process is far more based around a hormonal and chemical basis that effects the entire human entity rather than some kind of "psychological testing game between the independent mind and body" that Newport suggests.

Or lets look at things from a different perspective:

You can choose to go to sleep (this is a psychological choice that will effect the biological system)
or
You can feel so tired, that you have little choice but to fall asleep.
(this is a biological choice that will effect the psychological system)

Sleep is not a choice of the mind, that the body then has to test and respond to. Fatigue and tiredness are system wide responses to certain conditions.
Factors such as circadian rhythm, hormonal levels in the body (depending on the activity levels proceeding them), sleep cycle stage, light sources, external cues etc. etc. are all going to create a symphony of signals to both mind and body, that in turn set of a system wide response.

In the same principle that a cup of strong coffee, can wake you up (because the caffeen enters your bloodstream and hence effects your entire system)
Chemicals released in either the brain or the body, will effect your levels of awarness and need for sleep. Melatonin being one example. If it's in your bloodstream, it's going to effect both body and mind.

Why would the body need to test if the brain is asleep with an urge to move, if it can simply respond to the homonal levels in it's bloodstream?

It's all too easy to focus on dreaming and sleep as a purely psychological issue, when in many cases our psychology is a slave to our biology and hormones.

I think staying still, can help some enter WILDs not because it is "tricking the body", but because reduced activity in the body will help facilitate the following:

*less external signal strength to occupy the mind and hence keep its focus looking outwards rather than turinging inwards.

and

*A lowering of "activity" hormones which will counteract sleep inducing hormones.


I don't think you can "trick the body into thinking the mind is asleep". That just a bit simplistic and childish in my honest opinion.
I would imagine, it's similar to the process that when you put on a fake smile, your body will actually start to produce chemicals releated to happiness.

I also think that overplaying the "staying still" part to falling asleep, as newport does, is as counterproductive as tossing and turning constantly. There are partial truths in what he is saying, but the theories and majority of information is misleading.
It's the old saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and the concept that a lie told with a pinch of truth, is far more convincing.


Falling asleep, should be a passive retreat from the external world. A letting go.
Too much mental focus on "staying still", is not a passive activity, it's an active process even if your body seems inactive.

I think a healthy, common sense middle ground should be the way to approach the idea.

That's my take on it.
Fits far more with what i've learnt about biology, sleep and psychology
than the sound-bite, informercial pseudoscience that Newport claims to be an expert in (god, even the sticking "ology" at the end of the word lucid, says enough about his approach to me)