Thread: Subconscious talking to you

Agent Smith:

A couple of nit-picky things:

Originally Posted by AgentSmith

Well, at the very least you have two hemispheres of the brain that can operate independently of one another. I'm pretty sure both form thoughts. I think personality disorders and some psychotic breaks occur simply because people have trouble combining these different and independent parts of the brain.

No, you don't. Science has known for years that the "Right-Brain/Left Brain" theory is not valid, though it still thrives in pop culture. For what it's worth, even the Right-Brain/Left-Brain folks never assumed that thoughts were created independently in each side. Conscious thoughts are single operations created by your mind -- there is no teamwork going on inside your head, unless, as you note, there is something very wrong with you.

I don't believe there is more than one "person" in your head, but I think its crazy to assume there aren't conflicting parts inside of you... Technically its all you, but the parts are certainly not identical and some of them operate independently of one another.

Philosophically true. but biologically your brain is operating as a single unit, tapping all of its sections as needed -- usually more than one section at a time. Aside from the sections that operate the autonomic systems, there are no independent sections -- hell. psychologists and holistic medicine practitioners would even argue that those primitive autonomic sections are also tapped by the thinking consciousness, and can influence thought, and vise-versa.

I do a lot of self reflection, but not in any weird metaphysical way. I just try and pay attention to my thoughts, where they are coming from, how they came to be etc. It sounds simple, but I've had great difficulty tracing my thoughts and emotions, and trying to pay attention to what is going on in my head... at least at a low level. Most people are just aware of whatever thought pops into their mind (high level behavior), but there is a lot going on in there underneath. Emotions are commonly regarded as being illogical, but I've often found that after digging deeply, they are rooted with logical concerns or somewhat logical thoughts. Your consciousness is really just the outer layer that brings everything together.. It takes some effort, but you can be aware of certain aspects beneath the conscious part - it just isn't easy.

Agreed, and well said.

There are also clearly parts of the brain that don't directly interact with the conscious at all. People think I'm crazy when I say this, but I have a good example everyone can relate to. Ever day dream while you are driving? I do all the time. Its a bad habit I know... but when I day dream, I don't see the road. I see the daydream imagery I create. What my consciousness sees is not related to driving in any way, and I'm not thinking about steering the wheel or pushing the pedals... yet I still get there. Most of the time I have no real memory of doing it. My consciousness had no part of this. So how did I get there without wrapping my car around a tree?? Well obviously a part of my brain performed this function automatically. You do this for more than you realize, giving the actions zero thought. After all, you don't have to think "left.. ok, now right foot.. ok, left foot again.." when you walk, do you?

Speaking for the drivers out there who do pay attention and regularly dodge drivers who think they don't need to pay conscious attention as they propel 2 tons of steel down public roads: Please, please, please pay attention! You might believe that your body is taking care of everything, but there are many, many decisions to be made in driving that transcend the trained automatic motor functions you mention. Why do you think pretty much every government has made cell phone use while driving illegal? That you haven't decorated a tree during one of your daydreams yet does not make you right -- it makes you very very lucky. I have a brother who manged to drive for almost ten years insisting that his car "drove itself," until it drove itself into a ditch at very high speed. Please pay attention!

Here is another example. Ever try to remember something, like a person's name.. but you just can't do it? Then two hours later, the name just surfaces into your thoughts out of nowhere? Well you weren't consciously doing that. What do you think was responsible for this? People would just say the subconscious, but that is such a vague term. There was a part of your brain that took it upon itself to continue searching your memory for this. You were not aware of it *at all*.

A much better example, I think, but again, your unconscious mind simply took some time to locate a file that you consciously requested earlier -- there really was no independent decision by some other part of your physical brain to help out.

Have you never found yourself arguing.. with yourself? Some people might describe this as being "conflicted", but I've noticed its really more than that. You have different ideas coming from different places that don't mesh. If you've ever had an internal conflict where you had two conflicting opinions about the same topic, you can probably relate. You literally fight with yourself before making a decision. I think this is due to an internal conflict.

There is a difference between having a list of pros and cons in your head that you must sort through before making a decision or conclusion and having a bipolar disorder where personalities in your mind are arguing comprehensively. I hope you meant the former. If you meant the latter, get help! Internal conflict is an intellectual term, not a physical term -- there truly is only one of you in there...

Originally Posted by Sageous

Agent Smith:

A couple of nit-picky things:



No, you don't. Science has known for years that the "Right-Brain/Left Brain" theory is not valid, though it still thrives in pop culture. For what it's worth, even the Right-Brain/Left-Brain folks never assumed that thoughts were created independently in each side. Conscious thoughts are single operations created by your mind -- there is no teamwork going on inside your head, unless, as you note, there is something very wrong with you.

I don't believe this at all.. Ever hear of alien hand syndrome? You can have a hemisphere control a hand... but its impossible for it to form thoughts? I'd just disagree with this. You can argue against how far the separation goes, but its quite clear there are parts of the brain with independent functions that overlap. I'm not arguing for two separate consciousnesses, but rather two different parts of the brain that are likely to perform similar functions. I guess you could call it two (or more) different subconscious processes with the ability to conflict... Even for all of us, there is a conflict between emotions and logic, which is literally the left brain / right brain dichotomy...

Philosophically true. but biologically your brain is operating as a single unit, tapping all of its sections as needed -- usually more than one section at a time. Aside from the sections that operate the autonomic systems, there are no independent sections -- hell. psychologists and holistic medicine practitioners would even argue that those primitive autonomic sections are also tapped by the thinking consciousness, and can influence thought, and vise-versa.

Well, I'd say that the only job of your conscious is to tie everything together. It really just serves to combine the different functions into a high level and usable form. I don't think there is much more to it than that.. There is obviously a lot of communication between different parts of the brain, but they do serve different functions.

Speaking for the drivers out there who do pay attention and regularly dodge drivers who think they don't need to pay conscious attention as they propel 2 tons of steel down public roads: Please, please, please pay attention! You might believe that your body is taking care of everything, but there are many, many decisions to be made in driving that transcend the trained automatic motor functions you mention. Why do you think pretty much every government has made cell phone use while driving illegal? That you haven't decorated a tree during one of your daydreams yet does not make you right -- it makes you very very lucky. I have a brother who manged to drive for almost ten years insisting that his car "drove itself," until it drove itself into a ditch at very high speed. Please pay attention!

Well, some times I can't help it. My safe driving aside, its still an automated function that I'm literally not consciously involved in..

A much better example, I think, but again, your unconscious mind simply took some time to locate a file that you consciously requested earlier -- there really was no independent decision by some other part of your physical brain to help out.

Well I can't really disagree. If I'm not consciously doing it, my unconscious is doing it. There is obviously some part of your brain that is working to do this, without conscious effort. How complicated it needs to be is irrelevant, I've just been given examples of functions your brain essentially performs without you.

There is a difference between having a list of pros and cons in your head that you must sort through before making a decision or conclusion and having a bipolar disorder where personalities in your mind are arguing comprehensively. I hope you meant the former. If you meant the latter, get help! Internal conflict is an intellectual term, not a physical term -- there truly is only one of you in there...

You've NEVER had a situation where you literally wanted something, but at the same time didn't? I have gone through the pros and cons, but its different than being internally conflicted. Some times its an emotional response versus a logical response. Other times its just two different opinions.

Personally, I think the people who have serious problems are really just "destabilized" and their conscious has less control over their parts. I don't think the mentally ill people physically have any differences than us. I don't think they operate any differently, but rather their controlling portions don't work as effectively.

Do you think they are physically built differently? Do you think the chemical inbalances in their head are creating the thoughts, or just preventing their control over them?

Originally Posted by AgentSmith

I don't believe this at all.. Ever hear of alien hand syndrome? You can have a hemisphere control a hand... but its impossible for it to form thoughts? I'd just disagree with this. You can argue against how far the separation goes, but its quite clear there are parts of the brain with independent functions that overlap. I'm not arguing for two separate consciousnesses, but rather two different parts of the brain that are likely to perform similar functions. I guess you could call it two (or more) different subconscious processes with the ability to conflict... Even for all of us, there is a conflict between emotions and logic, which is literally the left brain / right brain dichotomy...

I didn't deny that a hemisphere might be able to control a function (a la Alien Hand Syndrome), or that whatever other (usually anecdotal) proof of Right/Left Brain Theory is not true. What I said was that scientists, through actual experimenting using new tools like FMRI, have found that when they looked at the brain during conscious activity, they found that the brain "lit up" throughout, regardless of what that conscious thought was. Sure, some spots were more active than others, but at no time did one hemisphere operate independently from the other, especially in the thought department. So believe what you will; science begs to differ.

Well, I'd say that the only job of your conscious is to tie everything together. It really just serves to combine the different functions into a high level and usable form. I don't think there is much more to it than that.. There is obviously a lot of communication between different parts of the brain, but they do serve different functions.

That's a fairly meager expectation for the thing that makes us human, don't you think? I think I will continue to believe, or at least hope, that I've got a bit more control over my thoughts, mind, and I suppose mental destiny than simply organizing what happens outside my conscious purview!

You've NEVER had a situation where you literally wanted something, but at the same time didn't? I have gone through the pros and cons, but its different than being internally conflicted. Some times its an emotional response versus a logical response. Other times its just two different opinions.

Sure I have, but it has always been an intellectual issue -- I never felt like there was another me inside actively arguing, vocally, against my wishes. Internal conflict comes from a collision of differing desires, expectations, or memories (i.e., experience speaking through blind optimism) that might well up while processing an important decision. That certainly includes dealing with -- or considering -- emotional responses, but in no way is there another rational mind presenting counter arguments to me in English. That would be incredibly disturbing.

Do you think they are physically built differently? Do you think the chemical imbalances in their head are creating the thoughts, or just preventing their control over them?

Yes. That would be an excellent explanation. And, by extension, people so afflicted tend to consider those chemical imbalances to be quite balanced, and that their "conversations" are real, and everyone else is sick.