Shared Dreaming Debate

[Baron Samedi]

NO AD HOMINEM ATTACKS If you don't know what that means, please learn. Learn some rules of debate, too, and debate tactics, so you can see through bullshit better. PHWEET GO!

[XeL]

I think there should be another option: "I might've experienced it" That's what I'd vote for.

[Mancon]

I think there should be another option: "I might've experienced it" That's what I'd vote for. Same here.

[Bobblehat]

WakingNomad, is there a place on here I can go to see the evidence?

[TwoCrystalCups]

WakingNomad, is there a place on here I can go to see the evidence?

[Marm]

Might be possible with aid of technology; an incredibly advanced one. Can someone give me an actual definition of "shared dreaming" because I typed it into Google and it just comes up with "Inception" *Facepalm*

[Solarflare]

i voted 'i need to experence it'

[JussiKala]

I cannot make such a broad statement as "I need to experience it", so I chose the one below it. I would believe it if I would experience it myself, but only if it was incredibly accurate. As in, if I found out I had a shared dream with someone, and they could tell me in detail everything that happened without errors. And due to the short nature of most of my dreams, maybe a more than a couple of times too. One or two somewhat relating dreams wouldn't be enough to convince me. Don't tell me I'm not being open minded, I am technically. Everything I currently think I know just goes against the very aspect of shared dreaming as people like wakingnomad put it, so I need the appropriate proof of its existance before I consider it "the most probably explonation". Basically, I currently think that it's quite unlikely. But a couple of good experiences would push me in a position where I wouldn't know what to believe. In that situation, I would probably try to do experimentation and see where that leads me. But the last thing I would ever even think of doing is try to explain it away with some pseudo-science and shove it in other peoples faces. No. I am not an expert on any subject fit to this matter, so I don't find myself worthy of even a say in how it all would work.

[MischiefManaged]

Voted for "Yes, because I have experienced it." I'm lucky, because if I had any doubts on this matter, it would eat me up.

[Baron Samedi]

WakingNomad, is there a place on here I can go to see the evidence? Shared Dream FAQ > shared dream Journals Might be possible with aid of technology; an incredibly advanced one. Can someone give me an actual definition of "shared dreaming" because I typed it into Google and it just comes up with "Inception" *Facepalm* Sharing a dream with someone else. Having the same dream as someone else.

[Baron Samedi]

Sorry WakingNomad, my crystal ball is missing. Where do I find Shared Dream FAQ? I looked at the FAQ menu up the top, I looked in the DJs and I looked in Beyond Dreaming. Where is it? It's all around you. Oh... then IMO: Sharing a dream with someone else => Impossible. Having the same dream with someone else => Coincidence. What is the difference between sharing a dream and with someone else and having the same dream with someone else to you?

[Mindraker]

What is the difference between sharing a dream and with someone else and having the same dream with someone else to you? If I could actually "share" a dream with someone else, then I could completely crash the communications industry, espionage, revolutionize warfare, and become a multibillionaire overnight. Having a similar or even the same dream is not the same the same thing -- it could merely be a coincidence brought on by environmental circumstances or pre-dream suggestions. Or we may both be reinterpreting our dreams after we wake up. "I thought I saw a loaf of bread."... "Oh... so that's what that brown dot was... yeah I guess I saw a loaf of bread, too."

[Baron Samedi]

If I could actually "share" a dream with someone else, then I could completely crash the communications industry, espionage, revolutionize warfare, and become a multibillionaire overnight. How could you do that through shared dreaming?

[Bobblehat]

Sorry WakingNomad, my crystal ball is missing. Where do I find Shared Dream FAQ? I looked at the FAQ menu up the top, I looked in the DJs and I looked in Beyond Dreaming. Where is it?

[TwoCrystalCups]

Sorry WakingNomad, my crystal ball is missing. Where do I find Shared Dream FAQ? I looked at the FAQ menu up the top, I looked in the DJs and I looked in Beyond Dreaming. Where is it? Did you actually read what wakingnomad said on his Thread? I feel you are skeptic to actually want evidence and a Faq. NO AD HOMINEM ATTACKS If you don't know what that means, please learn. Learn some rules of debate, too, and debate tactics, so you can see through bullshit better.

[Robo]

I personally believe in shared dreaming. a long time ago, I was playing some online game. I met someone there who was interested in shared dreaming when I talked about it. If I remember correctly, our dreams synced up by the second time we tried it, and worked at least twice more before we fell out of contact. Edit: I also have apparently had several appearances in nomad's old dream journal, although I did not remember any of it.

[Robo]

How many times does something need to be able to be able to be reproduced before it is no longer coincidence? for me, I've repeated shared dreaming enough to prove to myself that there is more than just coincidence going on.

[Baron Samedi]

How many times does something need to be able to be able to be reproduced before it is no longer coincidence? for me, I've repeated shared dreaming enough to prove to myself that there is more than just coincidence going on. It's a coincidence that I see this video and the author has zzz zzz in his username. It's a coincidence that 222 keeps reappearing in my life. Another coincidence yesterday, is when I was talking about UFO's to my family last might, my uncle awoke from a dream, and said, "I just had a dream about big silvery ball in the ground. I was on a construction team, and we were trying to get it out of the soil. A big silver orb thing." Coincidence means 2 things coinciding. My life is one big giant coincidence. It's a coincidence that after 22, 222, and 2222 keep reappearing in my life I find out I was conceived on November 22, 1974. It's a coincidence that my mom is a twin, and I was conceived on her birthday. It's also a coincidence that my ascendant birth sign is Gemini. It's a coincidence that my mom and my aunt both have four children, the first from one father, the last three from another. That's a coincidence. Coincidences happen to me all the time, all around me. When people hang out with me, coincidences always happen, and then they nervously laugh. I laugh madly and tell them I am magic.

[Empedocles]

It's a coincidence that 222 keeps reappearing in my life. Another coincidence yesterday, is when I was talking about UFO's to my family last might, my uncle awoke from a dream, and said, "I just had a dream about big silvery ball in the ground. I was on a construction team, and we were trying to get it out of the soil. A big silver orb thing." Coincidence means 2 things coinciding. My life is one big giant coincidence. It's a coincidence that after 22, 222, and 2222 keep reappearing in my life I find out I was conceived on November 22, 1974. It's a coincidence that my mom is a twin, and I was conceived on her birthday. It's also a coincidence that my ascendant birth sign is Gemini. It's a coincidence that my mom and my aunt both have four children, the first from one father, the last three from another. That's a coincidence. Or you may be trying very hard to find "patterns" in your life, and that way you are much more likely to notice 22, 222, and 2222 appearing, than to notice 0, 239, 4938, or 239819. On a more serious note: Honestly, no I don't believe in shared dreaming. And if it does exist, I think it would be extremely rare, limited only to individuals with extraordinary telepathic/ESP abilities. These two "shared dreamers" would also have to be in REM sleep at the same time in order for it to work. I am not saying it cannot exist, I am simply saying I don't see any evidence for it's existence at this time. So many studies have been done on dreams, by Celia Green, Stephen LaBerge, etc., and there is no study which confirms this supposed phenomenon. It's also a bit funny to me to see all these threads on DreamViews, with people claiming they have shared dreams. Some people on DV are even claiming that they're having it on a regular basis. Something like this would actually be easy to prove if it did exist, and it would be a potential candidate for a succesful victory at the James Randi Foundation (google "randi challenge" for more info). Here's the setup: 1.) Find two experienced shared dreamers (there are supposedly many here on DreamViews). 2.) Arrange a setting where they can't communicate with one another, and make sure they fall asleep approximately at the same time, in order to be in REM around the same time. 3.) Tell subject A, to give a certain password to subject B, once they are together lucid in the dream state. End of story. If they are for real, they'll be able to give information to one another from the dream state. So what are the shared dreamers waiting for? James Randi will give them one million dollars if they can prove it. I don't mean to sound arrogant, since I actually believe in ESP and many other things which are "out there", so I am not a "skeptic" at all. The thing is, this shared dreaming thing annoys me very much, just because I see so many threads with people claiming they experienced it, and others claiming it's easy to experience it, and others supposedly having it on a regular basis. I am simply being as honest as I can be. I am very annoyed when I see threads on this forum such as "The Etiquette of Shared Dreaming." It makes me really angry. No offense intended. Jakob

[shadowofwind]

Hi Jacob, You might be less angry if you got some more background on the discussion first. About once every two weeks someone comes in and posts the same 'test' that you did. Then people explain why it doesn't apply to what they're talking about when they speak of shared dreaming. Then a couple of weeks later it comes up again with someone else, ad nauseum. OutlawPig is the last example before you. (Though I see you've been registered for longer than me. Maybe you usually read different threads.) There are also a number of problems with the Randi challenge, except as a device for feeling smugly superior to superstitious people. For instance, to avoid having people randomly try stuff until they get lucky and win the reward, the confidence criteria are extremely high, much higher than for most scientific studies. That's understandable, but it precludes the demonstration of difficult phenomena. You can google for other criticisms, or maybe someone less lazy than me can repost links that have been posted here before. Also I don't understand your outrage about shared dreaming if you accept the possibility of ESP. For me that's all it is, the only difference is in the 'shared dreaming' case you're generating images from your imagination instead of from what is coming through your sense organs. Granted not everybody interprets shared dreaming in the same way, but there does seem to be some general agreement about this. Regarding your critique of WakingNomad's pattern recognition....Your criticism here is typical also. Yes, many people aren't objective about how they recognize patterns in things. But other people are aware of the possible fallacies, and they look at them and weigh them carefully. For example, I'm not at all into numerology, but my son pointed out that my cell phone number starts with the same four digits as my address, then when I got a new job a few months later, my 5 digit employee ID matched the phone number, with two of the phone digits added/sandwiched into the middle of it. These are issued sequentially, so that's pretty hard to do. If this was the only thing like that had ever happened, then I'd attribute it to random luck. But if numerology is your thing, and you have a moderate degree of psychic development, this sort of thing can happen a lot, as in nearly every day. So although I have significant disagreements about WakingNomad about dream interpretation, and would probably disagree with WakingNomad about the significance of 2's in his life, I see no reason to doubt the claim. Of course, its reasonable for you to doubt it if it doesn't fit with your experience and if the only people you've ever met who make such claims are objectively lying or deluded. A lot of what people are going to claim about paranormal experience is just fabrications. Unfortunately, there is good deal of overlap between the fabricators and the real psychics, because the absence of self-doubt makes the phenomena a lot easier. If you believe that shared dreaming might be real, but that some people are twisting or exaggerating their tales of it for self-aggrandizement, maybe we should refocus the discussion on that. Maybe this is what bothers Sageous about the topic also.

[Empedocles]

Hi Jacob, You might be less angry if you got some more background on the discussion first. About once every two weeks someone comes in and posts the same 'test' that you did. Then people explain why it doesn't apply to what they're talking about when they speak of shared dreaming. Then a couple of weeks later it comes up again with someone else, ad nauseum. OutlawPig is the last example before you. (Though I see you've been registered for longer than me. Maybe you usually read different threads.) This is ridiculous. People on an internet forum claiming they exchanged "passwords" in a dream is not the same as a controlled study. I can't believe you are making this comparison. There are also a number of problems with the Randi challenge, except as a device for feeling smugly superior to superstitious people. If I were psychic, or a shared dreamer (which is essentially the same thing), I'd be the first in line to prove those a$$holes wrong. For instance, to avoid having people randomly try stuff until they get lucky and win the reward, the confidence criteria are extremely high, much higher than for most scientific studies. That's understandable, but it precludes the demonstration of difficult phenomena. You can google for other criticisms, or maybe someone less lazy than me can repost links that have been posted here before. Someone who has psychic abilities won't have any problem meeting the challenge. If you have the slightest telekinetic power to move a psi-wheel in a controlled setting, you will win the money. The same goes for remote reading, telepathy, and so on and so forth. Also I don't understand your outrage about shared dreaming if you accept the possibility of ESP. The outrage is in the fact that there is no evidence for shared dreaming at this time. No studies have confirmed this phenomenon that supposedly every 3rd or 4th DreamViews poster can induce at will. On the other hand, there have been controlled studies in which telekinetic abilities have been demonstrated. These people (for example: Nina Kulagina), aren't alive today to meet the Randi Challenge. For me that's all it is, the only difference is in the 'shared dreaming' case you're generating images from your imagination instead of from what is coming through your sense organs. Granted not everybody interprets shared dreaming in the same way, but there does seem to be some general agreement about this. Pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo that has little value. First we need controlled studies which support it's existence, and then you can tell me about "how it works." In other words: We need to see that it does work in the first place. And simple claims about doing it aren't good enough. Regarding your critique of WakingNomad's pattern recognition....Your criticism here is typical also. Yes, many people aren't objective about how they recognize patterns in things. But other people are aware of the possible fallacies, and they look at them and weigh them carefully. For example, I'm not at all into numerology, but my son pointed out that my cell phone number starts with the same four digits as my address, then when I got a new job a few months later, my 5 digit employee ID matched the phone number, with two of the phone digits added/sandwiched into the middle of it. These are issued sequentially, so that's pretty hard to do. If this was the only thing like that had ever happened, then I'd attribute it to random luck. But if numerology is your thing, and you have a moderate degree of psychic development, this sort of thing can happen a lot, as in nearly every day. So although I have significant disagreements about WakingNomad about dream interpretation, and would probably disagree with WakingNomad about the significance of 2's in his life, I see no reason to doubt the claim. Are you saying these patterns are evidence of psychic abilities? Of course, its reasonable for you to doubt it if it doesn't fit with your experience and if the only people you've ever met who make such claims are objectively lying or deluded. A lot of what people are going to claim about paranormal experience is just fabrications. Unfortunately, there is good deal of overlap between the fabricators and the real psychics, because the absence of self-doubt makes the phenomena a lot easier. I believe in the paranormal. Lots of it. I also believe shared dreaming might exist. I just don't see an evidence for it at this time. Forum posts with people claiming they have it are really meaningless to me. If you believe that shared dreaming might be real, but that some people are twisting or exaggerating their tales of it for self-aggrandizement, maybe we should refocus the discussion on that. Maybe this is what bothers Sageous about the topic also. Yeah, I believe it might be real. I already said that. But until I see a good study on it, I refuse to believe these tons of DreamViews users who are writing spectacular tales of shared dreaming adventures. Best wishes, Jakob

[dutchraptor]

1.) Find two experienced shared dreamers (there are supposedly many here on DreamViews). 2.) Arrange a setting where they can't communicate with one another, and make sure they fall asleep approximately at the same time, in order to be in REM around the same time. 3.) Tell subject A, to give a certain password to subject B, once they are together lucid in the dream state. Unfortunately that would be extremely ineffective as we would have no idea ass to how both dreamers will interpret the dream and the password. Here is a more appropriate test 1.) Find two experienced shared dreamers 2.) Tell that once they communicate in the dream they must both perform a particular eye-movement. If both dreamers simultaneously did the eye signal there is evidece of its existence.

[Empedocles]

Unfortunately that would be extremely ineffective as we would have no idea ass to how both dreamers will interpret the dream and the password. Here is a more appropriate test 1.) Find two experienced shared dreamers 2.) Tell that once they communicate in the dream they must both perform a particular eye-movement. If both dreamers simultaneously did the eye signal there is evidece of its existence. This is nonsense. There is nothing to "interpret" if one is given a simple assignment to remember a word and write it down after waking up. They meet in the dream, and the rest is a piece of cake: Subject A: There you are! Awesome, we're both lucid now. Subject B: Ok, here we go. Let's prove it to them. What's the password he gave you? Subject A: The password is "Buckchaser". Subject B: Buckchaser, buckchaser, buckchaser... alright. Subject A: See ya later. Subject B: Bye bye. And that's it. The experiment can be repeated once more, but the "other way around", so that the other subject has the password this time, but it isn't necessary. This would be enough for the James Randi Challenge, so I don't understand why these hundreds if not thousands of shared dreamers do not want to be rich. In any case, similar eye-movements can be written off as coincidences, but if the two dreamers can transfer passwords such as (for example) "Buckchaser", or "Fox 88" or "Dream 97", then this is 100% proof. Jakob

[TwoCrystalCups]

This was his first post i read, and already when i read it, i knew i wasn't going to like you, and i don't know you. All the energy and reading from this made me interact in a way he is to this thread. Also talking about telepathy that he believes in it yet he just said now that he need evidence that i have this ability to read minds and people and energy. Yet he comes to me and asks about religion and some sort that does not have anything to do with telepathy and esp. I do not like the way he is approaching this and mocking this thread with his anger. The best bet is to ignore him and once he quotes you and it "feels" like his usual run around then just don't talk back, because all he wants is attention and more havoc once his attention is noticed. And if he does say that we are desperate and have no proof etc then so be it let him down play without attention. Thanks for reading this. Or you may be trying very hard to find "patterns" in your life, and that way you are much more likely to notice 22, 222, and 2222 appearing, than to notice 0, 239, 4938, or 239819. On a more serious note: Honestly, no I don't believe in shared dreaming. And if it does exist, I think it would be extremely rare, limited only to individuals with extraordinary telepathic/ESP abilities. These two "shared dreamers" would also have to be in REM sleep at the same time in order for it to work. I am not saying it cannot exist, I am simply saying I don't see any evidence for it's existence at this time. So many studies have been done on dreams, by Celia Green, Stephen LaBerge, etc., and there is no study which confirms this supposed phenomenon. It's also a bit funny to me to see all these threads on DreamViews, with people claiming they have shared dreams. Some people on DV are even claiming that they're having it on a regular basis. Something like this would actually be easy to prove if it did exist, and it would be a potential candidate for a succesful victory at the James Randi Foundation (google "randi challenge" for more info). Here's the setup: 1.) Find two experienced shared dreamers (there are supposedly many here on DreamViews). 2.) Arrange a setting where they can't communicate with one another, and make sure they fall asleep approximately at the same time, in order to be in REM around the same time. 3.) Tell subject A, to give a certain password to subject B, once they are together lucid in the dream state. End of story. If they are for real, they'll be able to give information to one another from the dream state. So what are the shared dreamers waiting for? James Randi will give them one million dollars if they can prove it. I don't mean to sound arrogant, since I actually believe in ESP and many other things which are "out there", so I am not a "skeptic" at all. The thing is, this shared dreaming thing annoys me very much, just because I see so many threads with people claiming they experienced it, and others claiming it's easy to experience it, and others supposedly having it on a regular basis. I am simply being as honest as I can be. I am very annoyed when I see threads on this forum such as "The Etiquette of Shared Dreaming." It makes me really angry. No offense intended. Jakob

[Empedocles]

This was his first post i read, and already when i read it, i knew i wasn't going to like you, and i don't know you. All the energy and reading from this made me interact in a way he is to this thread. Also talking about telepathy that he believes in it yet he just said now that he need evidence that i have this ability to read minds and people and energy. Yet he comes to me and asks about religion and some sort that does not have anything to do with telepathy and esp. I do not like the way he is approaching this and mocking this thread with his anger. The best bet is to ignore him and once he quotes you and it "feels" like his usual run around then just don't talk back, because all he wants is attention and more havoc once his attention is noticed. And if he does say that we are desperate and have no proof etc then so be it let him down play without attention. Thanks for reading this. I am seriously debating with myself right now whether or not to ignore each and every one of your nonsense posts.