Thread: Scientists unlock mystery of out-of-body experiences

Okay, but I don't understand anything that scientist said.

SCIENCE,

I wouldn't go as far as to say the title is sensationalist, the phenomenon is well-known enough that it isn't really any longer a mystery. If you wanted to, you could claim any dream is an out of body experience. No, one does not necessarily feel as though one is outside ones body, however the fact that you do and experience things that are not taking place in reality is enough evidence to prove the phenomenon real, at least in the sense that you seemingly can do, see, and experience things that are not actually happening in reality during an altered state of consciousness. The claim that you are actually doing those things is another story. In order to find out what's going on, all you need to do is what this scientist did--brain scans during a reported OOBE or even during sleep where-after just having been dreaming is reported.

I'm not sure if you are serious or not, Zoth...

A "study" composed entirely on the experience of one woman? Seems a bit slim, don't you think? Also, does all that scientific gobble-di-goop imply an actual OBE, or just one woman's brain acting like it believes it is OBE'ing?

And, finally, just because this one woman had what she calls an OBE while awake by no means stands as proof that OBE's and LD's might be different perceptions of the same event. I can't believe you really said that; not like you at all.

This doesn't seem like the sort of high-quality evidence or research you usually unearth and share, Zoth. Seriously: Popular Science is not exactly Nature, is it? Are you just teasing us, or did I miss something substantial?

Sageous, I think you're viewing the thread in the wrong perspective 0o This thread is meant as an attempt to stirring some discussion regarding OBE's, not as a "Definitive proof that OBE are real, fundamental, clear, and single-handily proven by this woman"

This doesn't seem like the sort of high-quality evidence or research you usually unearth and share, Zoth. Seriously: Popular Science is not exactly Nature, is it? Are you just teasing us, or did I miss something substantial?

The study was posted in Frontiers, and I wouldn't exactly call it a "Pop Science" source The link you probably clicked first is - like I said - a brief but not 100% accurate description of said article. It serves the purpose of me not having to explain what the study is about, because most people rather read a version without the scientific jargon. At the same time, it also helps that the same website has a critic to that same article (the one that explains the study), stating some key notes to take when analyzing this type of report.

A "study" composed entirely on the experience of one woman? Seems a bit slim, don't you think? Also, does all that scientific gobble-di-goop imply an actual OBE, or just one woman's brain acting like it believes it is OBE'ing?

It's called a single case-study...about a woman who reports being able to OBE at will. The scientific gobble-di-goop that you've read is the abstract of the article. The woman is definitively OBE'ing (they call it Extra-Corporeal Experience it due the lack of emotional content though), because an OBE is...an experience. In the same way, I linked another report of a study in which scientists induced an OBE in lab for the first time. Like Snoop said, this isn't something new.

And, finally, just because this one woman had what she calls an OBE while awake by no means stands as proof that OBE's and LD's might be different perceptions of the same event. I can't believe you really said that; not like you at all.

Huh? We know for a fact that OBE and lucid dreams are not different perceptions of the same event, or even the same event, because lucid dreaming can only occur when the subject is...dreaming, unlike OBE. Are you sure you've read my sentence correctly ? You're disagreeing with something that I never said 0o

Oh and the title of the thread is merely because that's the name of an article mentioning the study someone gave to me.

PS: BrandonBoss, if you're seeing this, thanks for the clarification, but after sensing this thread might be misinterpreted, I'll stick to lucid dreaming xD

^^ Sigh. So I guess you are serious, and apparently single-case studies are significant. Never mind, then; clearly I happened on the wrong thread today. Have at it, Zoth; I'm out.


p.s.: And yes, I read the abstract, and the articles, and understood your sentences as presented...I simply saw no "unlocking" done, and thought you weren't serious; sorry!

haha, zoth. I don't like posting much in BD either.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Sigh. So I guess you are serious, and apparently single-case studies are significant. Never mind, then; clearly I happened on the wrong thread today. Have at it, Zoth; I'm out.

Passive-agressive replies don't really contribute to the discussion. Instead of them, you could try to explain what you mean by "apparently single-case studies are significant". Significant to what? Neither the study or this thread (read, me) aims to prove anything, or cling to any particular perspective. I'm still confused

Sorry; I didn't know I was being passive-agressive; I was speaking in the best of graces up there, Zoth, I really did think you weren't serious. Please forgive my presumption.

For what it's worth: you created this thread, I assume now, because you thought that case study was significant, and I also could assume that you thought as much because you entitled the thread "Scientists unlock the Mystery of Out-of-Body Experiences." Such seriousness, including that of your response, tells me you considered this study significant. it was my impression, assuming your were serious, that you were indeed establishing a particular perspective, and were aiming to prove something (or acknowledge that it was proven). Reread your own OP and tell me you were honestly not attempting to prove something.

Guess we're even, because I take offense to you accusing me of being condescending intentionally ^^ Regardless, I'll apologize, even though I'm still hugely confused on what point you are trying to make. Seriously:

For what it's worth: you created this thread, I assume, because you thought that case study was significant, and I also could assume that you thought as much because you entitled the thread "Scientists unlock the Mystery of Out-of-Body Experiences." Such seriousness, including that of your condescending response and subsequent accusation, tells me you considered this study significant. it was my impression, assuming your were serious, that you were indeed establishing a particular perspective, and were aiming to prove something (or acknowledge that it was proven). Reread your own OP and tell me you were honestly not attempting to prove something.

Not. Even. Close. I personally don't even care about OBE, else you'd see me posting way more often in this section. The events that led to the creation of this thread are simply this, and fact that I saw this reddit thread: Scientists unlock mystery of out-of-body experiences (aka astral trips), read the abstract and the 3 articles linked, decided it would make an interesting thread for people interested on the subject, and that's all. So no, I was honestly not attempting to prove something...seriously, what is there to prove in here? Maybe I wasn't being condescending, but trying to respond in a friendly way to a reply that already had assumed that I was either joking or making an illogical claim. Even assuming things I never said, like:

And, finally, just because this one woman had what she calls an OBE while awake by no means stands as proof that OBE's and LD's might be different perceptions of the same event. I can't believe you really said that; not like you at all.

Never too late to ask me my opinion directly on whatever position you're assuming I'm taking though, and finally launch a proper discussion on the topic

You have a nice discussion, then.

At least you've explained why a dreamer of your caliber and intelligence would seriously present such an OP... I really did think you were kidding; you're usually the one who rips such OP's to shreds. I clearly and totally misunderstood you and this thread.

All apologies for that misunderstanding, and interrupting. Since you apparently have no opinion, there is no point in asking it. And, since I'm apparently an idiot, I'll definitely unsubscribe now so as not to interfere with any conversation that might arise from the people who are not you, who understood you were just presenting an article and not an opinion, but are interested in OBE. (And yes, that was passive-agression!)

No need to apology Sageous, I'm starting to think your argument was mainly about the relevance of this study design for a statement I made of whether OBE and lucid dreams are/are not the same thing. If it clears your doubt, I don't think studies are needed to differentiate them, but once again, I'm of opinion that OBEs are just a type of hallucination, which is what differentiates them from dreams. Still, I guess the host can't blame the guests for not guessing what the food is, so thank you for bothering, I'll take your advice next time I make a thread about any study and be more clear

On topic: Still gotta read the rest of the study, because what makes me most curious is the physiological state the woman seeks when inducing the OBE.

'"Scientists unlock mystery of out-of-body experiences"

Dammit, they beat me to it!

I call bullshit on the woman even having an OBE. The very fact that she is activating parts of the brain is an (albeit debatable) indicator that she is still in her body is it not?

The debatable part is wether or not she is able to do Remote Viewing etc. and that the brain is the translator. At the very least, the brain has to be storing memory somehow gathered from an out of body source. Atleast, I think so.

Delta sleep or other coma states are way more logical mechanisms for having true OuterBody experiences.

Originally Posted by Zoth

I find this perspective on OBE much more interesting than the idea of astral projection, especially if it means one day we could have this kind of experiences just for the fun of it ^^ Also, this is yet another proof that OBE and lucid dreams are NOT the same concept, since the latter cannot occur in the waking state.

^ Zoth, you have to agree that the title is very misleading. But that aside,

I think there needs to be some clearing up here. I suspect that the article itself opts for the "Lucid dreams and OBE are two perspectives of the same thing" is it not?

Even though you did not state this. I do get that impression from the abstract.

Correct me if i'm wrong. Haven't read the entire article. It is a gem though. It looks GOOOOD.

And i'm talking about this one : http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journ...014.00070/full

Thanks for sharing.

Btw.. I don't get what you mean by... Lucid dream requires one to be dreaming and OBE does not.. Can you explain the difference in more detail?

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

I call bullshit on the woman even having an OBE. The very fact that she is activating parts of the brain is an (albeit debatable) indicator that she is still in her body is it not?

I thought that it was already obvious to everyone that the brain is still active during OBE. The body would die without brain activity, and without brain activity related to the OBE experience there would presumably be no physical memory of it. I also don't see why we should expect the connection between the spirit and the body to stop during the experience.

As I've been pointing out since I first joined the site, one's experience of being 'in' the body is always imagined, usually involuntarily, and if you consciously screw with that mental model you have an out-of-body experience. Its easiest for most people to do while asleep, since its easier to overpower the current sensate impressions when they're already mostly turned off. But it can be done while awake also. This is neither here nor there for concluding whether or not there is anything else going on during the OBE experience, like extra-sensory perception.

I don't see the problem with conducting and reporting an experiment involving one subject. Where is a research team going to get a large sample of people capable of voluntarily triggering an out of body experience? I think we need more such studies, we'd get a lot further with proving shared dreaming that way for instance, rather than these stupid statistical studies where we test a lot of people who can't do it. Of course its bad to draw conclusions from the study that don't follow from the experiment, but that's true with any study. At least this study shows that some people have brain activity during an OBE, since apparently that wasn't already agreed upon.

I call in the "Astral chord" as the last piece of brain activity that is keeping alive a dying body.. LOL

An unusual find, wrote the scientists, University of Ottawa researchers Andra M. Smith and Claude Messier--this is the first person to be studied able to have this type of experience on demand, and without any brain abnormalities. Instead of an "out-of-body" experience, however, the researchers termed it a "extra-corporeal experience" (ECE), in part because it lacks the strong emotions that often go hand-in-hand (such as shock & awe, for example).

To better understand what was going on, the researchers conducted a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) study of her brain. They found that it surprisingly involved a "strong deactivation of the visual cortex." Instead, the experience "activated the left side of several areas associated with kinesthetic imagery," such as mental representations of bodily movement.

Her experience, the scientists wrote, "really was a novel one." But just maybe, not as novel as previously thought. If you are capable of floating out of your body, don't keep it to yourself!

If I want to go outside of my body of course there need to be balance of emotion in my mind, and no imagination. After I'm relaxed bodily and mentally enough for separation I separate. There is no strong emotion, emotions disrupt feeling of astral reality and tends to end the walk. I try to be as unattached as I can.
If I would use imagination I would fall into LD, which has less real feeling of surrounding. It feels like dream.

When body is not dead, when I can feel my physical body when I'm moving around in my astral one(or some mental construct) then it is possible to measure EEG waves. I don't think that there is some kind of cord... I never see any. If she is projecting close enough to this reality then she could observe things and report them. That would be real proof. Then there is a thing about 5D nature of astral dimension theoretized... It could be hard to project close to this physical dimension and timeline... (for me it is a thing of coincidence, sometimes I see things which are real... but much more often it is different. There is a need of healthy skepticism)

Well. My addition: When people talk about Astral travel. And that Chord. It encompasses Strong emotions of Life and death.

This guy i spoke to said he did it twice. And he swears if he snapped the chord he would be dead by now..

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

This guy i spoke to said he did it twice. And he swears if he snapped the chord he would be dead by now..

If the chord is how he represents his connection to his body to himself, then the inverse of that would be a tautology, where if he dies the chord snaps. I doubt that the reverse is true though, hence the experience of psionik.

It does sound like the lady in the study linked to is not doing what psionik does:

The participant was a right-handed woman, age 24, who was a psychology graduate student at the time of testing. She signed an informed consent approved by the University of Ottawa Research Ethics Board. The participant was in an undergraduate class that presented data on body representation hallucinations in patients that report experiences of their body outside their physical body (Blanke and Arzy, 2005). The participant spontaneously reported after class that she could have a similar “out of body” experience. She appeared surprised that not everyone could experience this. The participant described her experience as one she began performing as a child when bored with “sleep time” at preschool. She discovered she could elicit the experience of moving above her body and used this as a distraction during the time kids were asked to nap. She continued to perform this experience as she grew up assuming, as mentioned, that “everyone could do it.” This was often done before sleep onset as an aid to enter sleep. She described the experience as variable depending on her frame of mind. She was able to see herself rotating in the air above her body, lying flat, and rolling along with the horizontal plane. She reported sometimes watching herself move from above but remained aware of her unmoving “real” body. The participant reported no particular emotions linked to the experience. As an adult, the participant only infrequently “practiced” the experience; the experience does not occur spontaneously but is induced wilfully. The participant describes the experience in the following terms: “I feel myself moving, or, more accurately, can make myself feel as if I am moving. I know perfectly well that I am not actually moving. There is no duality of body and mind when this happens, not really. In fact, I am hyper-sensitive to my body at that point, because I am concentrating so hard on the sensation of moving. I am the one moving – me – my body. For example, if I ‘spin’ for long enough, I get dizzy. I do not see myself above my body. Rather, my whole body has moved up. I feel it as being above where I know it actually is. I usually also picture myself as moving up in my mind’s eye, but the mind is not substantive. It does not move unless the body does.” - See more at: Frontiers | Voluntary Out-of-Body Experience: An fMRI Study | Frontiers in Human Neuroscience

It seems to me that what she's doing is similar to other out of body experiences in an important way, even though its obviously not the same.

I had just thought about reality feeling... If "my form of OBE" feels so superreal, isn't it possible that it is because of high activity of left side of brain? (right side is dealing with creativity, imagination... and arguably I'm right brained in real life - in test I found that I'm right brained to 72%)

Maybe activity of brain is mirroring activity of our soul... if brain has to be in sync with it... to be aware in this bodies, to not to be confused by bodies sensory inputs... Maybe, when brain is out of sync with soul the man would be referred as crazy... not be able to take care of himself.

Wouldn't it be great if Zoth, Sageous and Brandon could refrain from their junior high school badgering antics, their condescending, passive-aggresive taunts, their threats to unsubscribe, and their insinuations that they know anything at all while clearly the other doesn't, and simply discuss their direct experience with the matter being discussed?

One can dream...

From my perspective, this study is fascinating. Unfortunately the authors have no idea what to do with a woman of such clearly advanced capability. They simply attempt to harness her to machines that add almost no significance at all to the understanding of consciousness, its source, or how it connects with the physical being. Many people, including the curious investigators at this site, are reaching levels of awareness that have no measurable effects on the instruments of science today.

I have many experiences that are beyond what science comprehends. I don't care that science cannot measure or understand what they are. I feel that these experiences are leading me to something. I have made guesses about what they could be on these pages. I am reminded about the story of Bruno in the new Cosmos series. He revolutionized our understanding of the cosmos, and what did he base his insights on? A dream. A dream that turned out to be true. Thank you to Neil deGrasse Tyson for reminding us of this.

JJ

Originally Posted by JJFrank

Wouldn't it be great if Zoth, Sageous and Brandon could refrain from their junior high school badgering antics, their condescending, passive-aggresive taunts, their threats to unsubscribe, and their insinuations that they know anything at all while clearly the other doesn't, and simply discuss their direct experience with the matter being discussed?

One can dream...

And here I thought Zoth and I resolved our misunderstanding quickly and maturely a few days ago; and Brandon wasn't even involved. Not only that, the thread continued without us for many posts.

It would be nice, JJ, if you would read all the posts before regaling us with such a remarkably inaccurate snap judgment. It would also be nice if you took your own advice and stuck to the topic, rather than render your own post unread by prefacing it with uncalled-for insults.

One can dream, indeed.