Supernatural Discussion

[Ghost94]

So I kinda did a bit too offensive topic earlier today, and now I decided to do a more calm one. One of the mods actually told me to do this, so it is weird if this gets locked... But anyway: So I believe in god. I am a lutherin, and I think, that our ways are quite right. But god is the only "higher" thing, that I belive in. Now, after reading quite a lot of these threads here, I just need the urge to talk about these things. Because for me, it all seems so obvious, that there are no "higher" things. And it seems so obvious, that the things, that are being talked right here, have a scientifical purpose. Like the "magical rocks". It has been proven, that the rocks have no effect whatsoever to the human brain (brain = mind). But that the actual effect comes from the placebo effect. It basically means, that when the brain (subconscious) thinks something, it acts like it. So if you´d think, that you have cought the fever, you will provoke a fever (this is actually true). The placebo effect has been widely used in medical science too, for about half of the effect of any drug comes from the placebo effect. So the rock only makes the brain think, that the rock has an effect, and the brain acts like it. For example, if you have a rock, that makes you sleep better, then your brain may, just for this effect, be more alert to melatonin. And basically, just about all of these "magical" things can be explained with the placebo effect or another simple fact. And here is the core of this article: When just about all of the stuff here can be explained by science, then why would it not be only, simple science, and nothing "higher"? Why do you believe, that it is not just science?

[Hukif]

Because everyone can have different beliefs of course, also magnets actually have energies <.< That and hallucinations tends to be the only explanation (apart from lies)

[Ghost94]

You´ve got a point there.

[Nicholars]

Thing is science does not account for everything... although we know a lot through science its hardly able to explain a lot of things and things that were "totally impossible" 20 years ago are now accepted by scientists.

[JustSoSick]

Thing is science does not account for everything... although we know a lot through science its hardly able to explain a lot of things and things that were "totally impossible" 20 years ago are now accepted by scientists. Example? I think you are pulling random things from your behind, I mean their profession is to test, observe, validate. Those ''things'' you talk about (if there are any) is now accepted probably because scientists tested it, scientist only accept through testing. So they accepted it because they were able to explain it.

[Nicholars]

All I mean is science cant explain everything for example parallel universes and beyond what we actually presently know about physics and quantum physics, we dont actually KNOW everything eg. the creation of the universe is only made up of theories no one was actually there to prove it (obviously) and i think its a bit of an assumption to say that science at this point can explain a lot of things that have been mentioned in this thread.... Maybe they dont have the apparatus to test these "things" successfully, the human mind far away from being understood as well although a lot is known about it.... As for an example just google for huuman magnetic/energy fields...

[The Cusp]

It has been proven, that the rocks have no effect whatsoever to the human brain *Bashes Ghost94 in the head with a large rock Magnets affect the human brain, and are in essence just rocks. Many rocks have magnetic properties, it's possible some could have some sort of effect. Certainly radioactive rocks would. Those properties might have been considered magical at one time. Not that I believe in magical rocks, or even pet rocks, just felt like being a pain.

[DeathCell]

You believe in God but doubt the ability for anything magical in the world... Huh? Forget what we're told Before we get too old Show me a garden that's bursting into life

[Creation X]

You believe in God but doubt the ability for anything magical in the world... Huh? holy crap, not to be off topic or anything but OP just got seriously owned. on the subject, You just seem to be one of the "see it to believe it" kind of people.

[Ghost94]

*Bashes Ghost94 in the head with a large rock Magnets affect the human brain, and are in essence just rocks. Many rocks have magnetic properties, it's possible some could have some sort of effect. Certainly radioactive rocks would. Those properties might have been considered magical at one time. Not that I believe in magical rocks, or even pet rocks, just felt like being a pain. Well, ofc something like a magnet might have just a little effect, and radiation could kill you, but that is beside the point.

[jatoo]

I've been on the forums a bit but only recently heard about 'dream sharing' or dreamwalkers/nightstalkers. I guess the proposed mechanism for it is something like telepathy. It's my opinion that anything like this is completely impossible. I think that people might believe it's happened, but the much more likely explanation is that they have just had a very realistic dream character, and Occam's razor would tell us that this is the explanation to accept. Thing is science does not account for everything... although we know a lot through science its hardly able to explain a lot of things and things that were "totally impossible" 20 years ago are now accepted by scientists. You're correct that science doesn't account for everything, and yes, there have been some surprising discoveries, but that doesn't mean that there aren't things we can categorically rule out. Scientists know an awful lot about a lot of different fields now. Neurologists can tell you without a doubt that there is no such thing as telepathy/telekinesis etc., and therefore no such thing as dream sharing. As for an example just google for huuman magnetic/energy fields... Someone mentioned something about the different 'energies' that could be what enables this sort of thing. Well there are only 4 different types of forces in the universe, and we know about all of them. We know that there aren't any others, and we can measure all the ones that exist, so this doesn't leave any room to explain an 'energy' that could enable something like this, like two minds communicating while dreaming. So I guess in summary, while dream sharing would be totally awesome, it's just not a real phenomenon. At least we have lucid dreaming, that's good enough for me.

[ChaybaChayba]

Science can't even explain gravity next to a 3 word explanation of "bending of space-time". How do you suppose science will explain dreamsharing? Lol you're at a dead end there for sure.

[jatoo]

Science can't even explain gravity next to a 3 word explanation of "bending of space-time". How do you suppose science will explain dreamsharing? Lol you're at a dead end there for sure. Well firstly gravity can be explained a great deal more than that. And there's also a fair bit of evidence for gravity. Check out Occam's razor on wikipedia. It basically states "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." Anyone can tell that gravity exists. We get pulled toward the Earth, and the Earth orbits the sun. Perhaps it is all just a dream, or an elaborate deception? Well Occam's razor would tell us to just accept that gravity exists. For dream sharing to work, there would need to be some way for people to communicate, right? There must be some link between their minds. But we know all the forces that exist in the universe. If this link existed we could measure it. But it doesn't. And we can't. It sounds like you don't understand how science works. If science didn't have good explanation of gravity, then it wouldn't be a well established theory. Science can explain exactly how gravity acts upon objects.

[ChaybaChayba]

Ok Mr Scientist, please feel free to explain exactly how gravity acts upon objects. (except for the 3 word explanation of "bending of space-time").

[jatoo]

ChaybaChayba, Firstly, I'm not an expert in the field. From what I've read gravity is explained by the general theory of relativity. This is some pretty complicated stuff, and I think it would take you or I a long time good deal of reading to understand it. The thing is though, this is 'good' science. And that means peer reviewed science. So even if neither of us understand it. Each scientist who has made contributions to this theory has had their work reviewed by their peers, i.e. other qualified scientists, to ensure that it's correct, and there are no mistakes. If their work doesn't stand up to review, it doesn't get accepted, and this is how we can have confidence in what scientists say. Also, scientists will tell you how confident they are in their theories. If there is a new theory for something that is being investigated, then they won't be too sure about it yet, they well tell you. That theory might then get thrown out. But after a long time, and lots of reviewing, they can be very confident in a theory, like they are with general relativity. The knowledge we have of the universe from these theories does explain gravity. It also provides a huge amount of evidence against things like telepathy or dream sharing. jatoo

[Arutad]

Wow, interesting discussion. Always funny to see how scientific-minded and open-minded people collide. I wonder if any understanding is ever possible, though. These two groups look like different species, one is oriented at "we can prove or disprove everything by science and logic", another is oriented at "science and logic are too limited to serve as proof or disproof". But the person who started this topic believes in God, I find his stance towards the supernatural a little strange. After all, it's known via the Bible that magic exists and that God dislikes its users. According to the Bible itself, there are other beings along with God who are capable of helping a human being perform unusual deeds. Magical rocks he mentioned are also explainable via the Bible, as our desires are divided into bad and good, bad coming from or summoned by demons. "The subconscious" is swarming with demons, and it's no surprise that something a little extraordinary may happen once in a while if we want it a lot, why wouldn't demons help us satisfy selfish desires as much (or rather as little, as they can't do much) as they can!

[jatoo]

right, but the article says they use this energy to explain forces that are observed to be exerted on celestial bodies that are abnormal with the current model...could further research lead to another force unique to this energy? No. The four fundamental forces explain all the interactions in the universe - Occam's Razor, once again. Use the least assumptions. There is no need for another force. The ones we know explain everything. The effect is unexplained because it wouldn't make sense without the dark energy. The dark energy allows an explanation for these unknown effects, but through existing, known forces, i.e. one of the four fundamental forces. No Im not implying this, that would be asinine. Im simply stating we do not have a complete model yet. So it is relevant. Especially if these effects on waves (which carry energy) are not accounted for. You are right in that we do not have a complete model yet. The strive for a complete model, is a strive to unify the four fundamental forces. The overwhelming scientific consensus is that there are four fundamental forces in the universe and only four. No serious science is being done looking for a new force because of the huge amount of confidence in that there are only four. Energy, force, seems to be a jumble of wordology. Use the force luke. Energy and force are two, very distinct things. It's important to understand this to understand anything about the claims being made about what forces are in the universe. The four forces are as mentioned. Types of energy include kinetic energy (the energy a moving object has) thermal energy, chemical potential energy, etc. See that is where you are wrong, I'd be willing to bet they said only two forces exist because that was the information they had. Or did they say, we got two knowns and two unknowns that we are working on.. Other forces could be left undiscovered in our backyard, or billions of miles away. I didn't say anything was a mechanism for dream sharing, I only said other forces might exist in our galaxy, or simply in the universe. In our bodies, in our souls, who knows. To simply assume because four have been discovered that nothing else exists or it's irrelevant because of distance. I on the other hand look at distance as nothing but an illusion in a time-space continuum. To each his own, some are destined to be open some closed. Some logical, some imaginative. Some both. Once again I was not claiming anything about mechanisms of dream sharing. My analogy was quite simple, close minded thoughts like something isn't close so it doesn't matter just holds back our race. It's not gonna help science learn anything, assuming the impossible and you will find the impossible. I didn't say hurricanes were extraordinary, I said not preparing for them or just choosing not to believe in them because of a lack of proof would be. Yes, we all know hurricanes exist. Live in a world defined by what we already know, instead of defining the future with the unknown. I won't. No, I am not wrong. Any good scientist of that time would not have claimed that we know all the forces in the universe. Good scientists do not make such claims unless they have reason to believe so. Reason obviously did not exist then, but it does now, and this is why scientists tell us that there are only four. The overwhelming scientific consensus. You really missed the point. You are claiming dreamsharing is possible, I am claiming it is not. If you say that we don't know the forces that exist in the universe as part of your argument then you are suggesting that a new, unknown force could be the mechanism for dreamsharing. If this is not what you are claiming then we should not be debating the existence of forces in the universe. Please stop arguing points which are not relevant to the discussion. The point of distance, I'll explain once again. If the force doesn't exist on earth this means that it cannot be experienced by anyone on earth, be created by anyone on earth or affect anyone on earth. If this is the case, then it cannot have any effect on dreamsharing as all humans are on, or very close to earth. It is therefore completely irrelevant to the topic of dreamsharing, and I wish you need to stop bringing it up, or explain the relevance. Whether or not any claimed thinking on the part of people arguing against the existence of dreamsharing hinders the progress of the human race is irrelevant to whether or not dreamsharing exists. This is an ad hominem attack. Stop this attack of closed mindedness and present actual arguments or evidence for your case. If we can observe distant parts of the universe (which we can) then it is relevant. I'd like to propose an unknown force. What is it that shapes every single snow flake into a six sided hexagon, as well as the craters on the moon and other planets/moons into perfect hexagons? (Detailed moon image here: http://www.rc-astro.com/photo/id1018_big.html) This can't just happen for no reason, and if it can be explained with the current known 4 forces, I'd love to hear the explanation. Unfortunately most of the close minded people refuse to even let themselves see the obvious hexagonal craters on the moon, which is mind boggling, since it's so obvious. No it is not relevant. No humans are dreaming in distant parts of the universe. There is no mystical force creating hexagons. The reason people see things like shapes, or faces (or even Kermit the frog) on the Moon or Mars, or the clouds is due to a phenomenon known as Pareidolia. As for ice, "The 6-fold symmetry arises from the hexagonal crystal structure of ordinary ice." See wikipedia. I wonder when I said I was in the side of supernatural <.< Anyway, because the forces we know say its impossible for telekinesis and the like to be real, its useless to show "proof" as it can be easily called a "lie" and/or "cheating". Also, the proof wanted, as how I see it, needs the use of the technology we currently have, which, because that technology is based on the 4 forces, its impossible to create the proof with it, or at least, one that satisfies everyone. That in the case its real and a new force. In the case its real and within the 4 forces, then there is the chance to create a new machine that allows to show the proof, but that would take tons of money and time, or even better, there is already the machine, but nobody wants to believe it/needs improvement lol In the case its not real, we can all live a happy life, right? Now that I look at it... the moon doesn't seems to have "perfect" hexagons. And, isn't there a study on water and the shape it takes? Like its linked to certain emotions? Eh... Water is not affected by emotion. A test to convince even the most sceptically minded person would be easy to design. Have two people claiming telepathic abilities who have not met one another communicate a randomly selected word from a very large database from one to the other. Repeat this many times, with many people. Ensure the test is run with proper scientific controls. If such an ability exists, this would be easy to do, and would provide extremely compelling evidence.

[DeathCell]

o, I am not wrong. Any good scientist of that time would not have claimed that we know all the forces in the universe. Good scientists do not make such claims unless they have reason to believe so. Reason obviously did not exist then, but it does now, and this is why scientists tell us that there are only four. The overwhelming scientific consensus. You really missed the point. You are claiming dreamsharing is possible, I am claiming it is not. If you say that we don't know the forces that exist in the universe as part of your argument then you are suggesting that a new, unknown force could be the mechanism for dreamsharing. If this is not what you are claiming then we should not be debating the existence of forces in the universe. Please stop arguing points which are not relevant to the discussion. The point of distance, I'll explain once again. If the force doesn't exist on earth this means that it cannot be experienced by anyone on earth, be created by anyone on earth or affect anyone on earth. If this is the case, then it cannot have any effect on dreamsharing as all humans are on, or very close to earth. It is therefore completely irrelevant to the topic of dreamsharing, and I wish you need to stop bringing it up, or explain the relevance. Whether or not any claimed thinking on the part of people arguing against the existence of dreamsharing hinders the progress of the human race is irrelevant to whether or not dreamsharing exists. This is an ad hominem attack. Stop this attack of closed mindedness and present actual arguments or evidence for your case. My point was never dreamsharing, never. I have really almost no opinion on that subject. My point was other forces could exist, if not here somewhere in the universe. I don't believe the laws of physics to be static, I believe they could possibly be amended at some time to an unknown force. And once again, never was my point dreamsharing, only the possibility for other forces to exist. I don't need to prove to you that it is possible, you need to stop the closemindedness. You keep telling me that because a lot of scientists agree than it is an unshakable fact, and than claim distance makes the existence of another energy unimportant, maybe to dream sharing but once again not my point. Yes I did say it is possible for dreamsharing, but the argument of other forces existing wasn't assuming it was affecting dream sharing. I'm quite able to understand the point of distance, thanks for your interpenetration.. Interpretation maybe

[WaterSquirrel]

Why are we DEBATING this in Beyond Dreaming? I thought the whole point of this section was to stay open minded. To assume the thing exists, and discuss it from that point of view. Summary: Some if not most people experience amazing things in their lives. The others pass these things off as coincidence or overreaction. I say in a few centuries, if not decades, most of these new preposterous things will fall under the category of "science". And we'll look back at our ancestors and laugh at how close minded they were.

[Hukif]

I don't think a test of the kind would work, there are many things to consider, like the guy is just too good at reading peoples body, got lucky on some, the things people "think" gets greatly affected by the knowledge of the experiment, so its easy to cheat, or everyone is just doing a collective lie to win themselves some money, unless there were a machine to make it easy for everyone, because people like easy things <.< And I think BD is open to debate, as long as there is no flaming/trolling going on. That and I don't think believing on science is close-minded lol

[JustSoSick]

Why are we DEBATING this in Beyond Dreaming? I thought the whole point of this section was to stay open minded. To assume the thing exists, and discuss it from that point of view. Summary: Some if not most people experience amazing things in their lives. The others pass these things off as coincidence or overreaction. I say in a few centuries, if not decades, most of these new preposterous things will fall under the category of "science". And we'll look back at our ancestors and laugh at how close minded they were. Well, those who don`t believe in the supernatural doesn`t say the supernatural doesn`t exist, we just don`t believe it does. We don`t say to stop research it. So why not discuss it even if we don`t believe it?

[juroara]

So I kinda did a bit too offensive topic earlier today, and now I decided to do a more calm one. One of the mods actually told me to do this, so it is weird if this gets locked... But anyway: So I believe in god. I am a lutherin, and I think, that our ways are quite right. But god is the only "higher" thing, that I belive in. Now, after reading quite a lot of these threads here, I just need the urge to talk about these things. Because for me, it all seems so obvious, that there are no "higher" things. And it seems so obvious, that the things, that are being talked right here, have a scientifical purpose. Like the "magical rocks". It has been proven, that the rocks have no effect whatsoever to the human brain (brain = mind). But that the actual effect comes from the placebo effect. It basically means, that when the brain (subconscious) thinks something, it acts like it. So if you´d think, that you have cought the fever, you will provoke a fever (this is actually true). The placebo effect has been widely used in medical science too, for about half of the effect of any drug comes from the placebo effect. So the rock only makes the brain think, that the rock has an effect, and the brain acts like it. For example, if you have a rock, that makes you sleep better, then your brain may, just for this effect, be more alert to melatonin. And basically, just about all of these "magical" things can be explained with the placebo effect or another simple fact. And here is the core of this article: When just about all of the stuff here can be explained by science, then why would it not be only, simple science, and nothing "higher"? Why do you believe, that it is not just science? there is no such thing as 'magic', in the sense or the way you are using 'magic' there are no such things as magical rocks. but no one is running around saying that this is a magical rock. the belief has nothing to do with 'magic', but energy the belief is that certain objects have a particular energy about them that is beneficial to the human being in some way, be it beneficial to the material OR other energy bodies. take for example: food obviously there are foods that are good for you, and foods that are not so good for you. now extend the idea of good and bad food for the body, to good and bad food for the astral body. or energy body, or etheric body, or mental body - take your pick. the belief is we have many bodies, not one. one of our most important bodies is the energy body. without it, we die. this energy body is linked to all of our vital organs. this is not physical energy as we know it. science can not see it, or measure it. we can only see the end result of how it effected our material body, thus, it looks like a placebo effect. the chakra system is a system in both our energy and material body, effectively uniting the two. so let's go back to those magical rocks. everything is energy. everything is energy resonating. the idea that things are truly solid is an illusion. the higher the frequency something resonates at - the higher up in the chart of reality it is. heaven, or your idea of heaven is resonating at a higher frequency than our physical earth. just like the bible says, heaven is here on earth but we can not see it. we can not see it because our eyes are only capturing the parts of reality resonating at a much lower vibration/frequency, what ever. energy workers then look for items that help the energy body, or mental body, or astral body and so on. this is the body you are running around in when you dream. and the body most of us will be running around in when we die. Helping this body, in turn helps our material body. Do they turn to items sometimes, like rocks? Yes. its a complicated story. but crystals are considered to be some of the most purest substances on earth that allow higher vibrations of energy to channel through them. Some of these healing rocks radiate energy, that is yours to freely take if you choose to. Whose energy do you think it is were talking about here? Energy workers know. Other rocks do the opposite, they are like sponges, they take in lower negative energies from your own bodies. Mud baths aren't just good for the skin, its believed to be taking a load off your energy body as well. The earth herself is also believed to absorb bad energy, if you are first willing to let go. are these 'magical rocks' a science? yes. is it a 'higher thing?'. yes. old fashioned religions pit science against heaven, and say "this is a scientific thing" and this is a "heavenly thing". but in this belief, thats nonsense. everything is explainable, just CURRENTLY not by OUR science. and what is 'heavenly' or 'higher' is something that helps align yourself in some way to all that heaven is. its completely dependent on where you are in reality and whether or not it helps you. here is an example of energy 'magic' healing. slow down. sit some where nice and quiet. take several, long and deep breaths. feel good? other people call it prana. it is the energy of God all around us, though we are ignorant to it, our physical body is always 'breathing' this energy. theres no point in asking a scientist to prove this energy is here. this is pure spiritual energy. and it is first absorbed by your other bodies then experienced in the material. I'm not asking you to believe in all of this stuff, but if you believe in a soul you might want to look into it. Its very beneficial to understand higher and lower vibrations of energy and how it effects you, and your relationship to God. What I am really trying to get at is, magic is a false understanding behind energy work. Energy healers treat what they do as a science. It is such a science to them, its down to the books. Look at the chakra system. They have it mapped out and relate the system to your organs, to your nervous system, to your digestive system. That they have channels that work like veins. What the chakras are prone to. What activates them. What blocks up their channels. How food effects them. How sleep effects them. And someone might recommend, sleep with this stone on your forehead or under your pillow and so on. And you can say "silly magic". But ask them. Their reason isn't magic. Their reason would be along the lines of the energy of the stone resonates with the energy of the brow chakra. In their eyes, it is both science and spiritual at the same time. No separation of heaven and earth. so before you knock off 'magical' rocks as silly, ask yourself, do you believe everything is energy resonating?

[Scatterbrain]

What I am really trying to get at is, magic is a false understanding behind energy work. Energy healers treat what they do as a science. It is such a science to them, its down to the books. Just because they make up a bunch of words and concepts doesn't mean they use the scientific method in any way. Their methods lack empiricism, rationalism and skepticism, the three are essential to science and critical thinking. And someone might recommend, sleep with this stone on your forehead or under your pillow and so on. And you can say "silly magic". But ask them. Their reason isn't magic. Their reason would be along the lines of the energy of the stone resonates with the energy of the brow chakra. In their eyes, it is both science and spiritual at the same time. No separation of heaven and earth. so before you knock off 'magical' rocks as silly, ask yourself, do you believe everything is energy resonating? Energy and chakras are made up concepts, they explain nothing, it's not science. Pretending for a second the magic stones actually have some sort of effect on the body, using just our imagination we could get a completely different but just as good explanation(if you can call it that) for what had happened.

[Firewalker]

So I kinda did a bit too offensive topic earlier today, and now I decided to do a more calm one. One of the mods actually told me to do this, so it is weird if this gets locked... But anyway: So I believe in god. I am a lutherin, and I think, that our ways are quite right. But god is the only "higher" thing, that I belive in. Now, after reading quite a lot of these threads here, I just need the urge to talk about these things. Because for me, it all seems so obvious, that there are no "higher" things. And it seems so obvious, that the things, that are being talked right here, have a scientifical purpose. Like the "magical rocks". It has been proven, that the rocks have no effect whatsoever to the human brain (brain = mind). But that the actual effect comes from the placebo effect. It basically means, that when the brain (subconscious) thinks something, it acts like it. So if you´d think, that you have cought the fever, you will provoke a fever (this is actually true). The placebo effect has been widely used in medical science too, for about half of the effect of any drug comes from the placebo effect. So the rock only makes the brain think, that the rock has an effect, and the brain acts like it. For example, if you have a rock, that makes you sleep better, then your brain may, just for this effect, be more alert to melatonin. And basically, just about all of these "magical" things can be explained with the placebo effect or another simple fact. And here is the core of this article: When just about all of the stuff here can be explained by science, then why would it not be only, simple science, and nothing "higher"? Why do you believe, that it is not just science? I've read some of the posts on this topic and it is an interesting subject. I have a question for the person who started this post. How can you believe in God and nothing else supernatural or "higher?" You say you are a Lutheran, so I assume you believe the Bible which is full of various supernatural beings other than God, such as Angels, demons, spirits, magic and sorcery abounds from Genesis to Revelation. Also do you believe you have a soul, will go to heaven or hell? If not I don't believe your faith is based on the Bible. Note: This is not an attack on anyones belief or lack of belief in whatever God they choose or not choose, it is just very strange for me to read from someone who says they believe in God, but nothing else "higher". As for the science debate, I agree with those who say science has not proved everything, or not found the answers to everything including the amount of forces in the universe. I have had experiences many on this messageboard would say are impossible but they happened, I can't prove it too you, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen for you can't prove they didn't either. I have had things move in my house without anybody touching them, had precognitive dreams, and other things. Science is constantly being amended and changed. Poltergiest investigators such as William Roll have documented proof of the supernatural, in one investigation on Unsolved Mysteries William Roll recorded bangs, knocks, and voices in a sealed hull of a ship. Nobody was there, it was sealed off, and this isn't some crack pot either but a parapsycholgist from Duke University. He doesn't beleive they are ghosts but PK from the mind, something modern science can't explain.

[Ghost94]

Now this is my and ONLY my opinion, do not think it is the truth. I am not recommending this way of viewing things to anyone. But here is my point of view: Human wrote the bible, not god, not jesus but human. You know what I mean.