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    Thread: Centroid's Workbook

    1. #1
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      Centroid's Workbook

      Hey! Im Centroid, a 15 year-old Parisian!

      So, I've been drawn into lucid dreaming by my brother in November last year. At that time, I had read LaBerge's ETWOLD and followed what he said to do for a little under two months. During that time, I had only one semi-lucid dream, so I got discouraged and gave up. However, now I'm much more motivated and want to give it another go.


      I'll just share what I had been doing when I first started out:

      -DJing, I could recall at least one full dream a night, more often two with fragments of other dreams

      -RCing during the day whenever I saw a dream sign (for me: exams, traveling, childhood friends)

      -WBTB + MILD at least once every two nights


      I've been on holidays for already a week, and have pondered on what I should be doing.

      So first off, DJing. This week I have only been able to recall one full dream with plot etc., the other days 0-3 dream fragments. So, I guess I need some time for it to get as good as it had once been. I think here theres nothing to do except staying consistent and writing everything down.

      Now things get slightly trickier, with day work and night work techniques


      Day Work

      So from what I understand here, RCing with dream signs is outdated, whereas awareness during the day is very important. But Im a bit confused with the number of techniques and which one(s) I should do

      So there is the awareness of your environment (ADA or SAT) and the awareness of yourself (Self-Awareness). Now which one is better, or is it possible to do a hybrid with both?

      Also, my brother is currently obsessed over the awareness of his own weight (Gravity RC). Would this be a viable thing to do? Its kind of related to self-awareness i think. He claims he will become lucid every night, so there's competition which is always good (like with the race to space, if there hadn't been the Soviet Union the USA wouldn't have gone far).

      So Im unsure of what to do during the day.


      Night Work (with WBTB)

      Here Im hesitating between MILD and SSILD. I have already tried MILD for a very long time with (almost) no result. Also I find it very boring after a number of attempts... However I am aware of the fact that some techniques need time to start producing results, and I have heard a lot about MILDs reliability.

      So yeah, and the other technique is SSILD. It has also been very successful for a lot of people, so I think Ill give it a try. I will see if it works better than MILD for me.

      Oh and something very important I forgot to mention: here in France we have school on Saturday too (lucky us huh), and it starts every day at 8. So I guess Ill try and go to bed sooner (at 9 maybe) to have time to do a proper WBTB. It might be tricky because I have to study a lot too. Will see how it goes, but attempting a DILD technique only once a week is not what I had in mind.


      Anyway enough about techniques, lets talk about goals!

      Short-term goals:
      -Recall at least one full dream every night
      -Figure out which techniques to use, day and night
      -Have one lucid dream

      Long-term goals:
      -Recall at least two dreams every night
      -Use the techniques chosen with consistency
      -Become lucid at least once every week, preferably every night lol

      Dream goals:
      -Fly at supersonic speeds
      -Eat a burger at a three-star restaurant
      -Summon fire mentally and burn stuff at will (mwa-ha-ha!)
      -Use the TARDIS to arrive in a random place at a random century
      -Relive the Battle of the Five Armies
      -Become a Jedi and fight a Sith Lord, and then destroy the Death Star (again, I know, Im sorry)


      So there we have it, my first post ever! Yay! I think Ill post my progress weekly, as there probably wont be much to say every day

      Thanks!

    2. #2
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      Hi and Welcome to Dream Views.

      You may want to have a look at FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips and Unified theory of Lucid Dreaming

      Self awareness is the key to lucid dreaming, reflect on your thoughts emotions, feelings, experiences. Although I don't recommend ADA it can help a ton with spotting dream signs more easily or anything that doesn't look normal.

      Ah! The gravity RC, the famous RC! yes, your brother is going to get far with that RC if he sticks to it! This RC was developed by Hukif and he is a member on this forum.

      Good luck!
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      Formerly know as Josh.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
      Hi and Welcome to Dream Views.

      You may want to have a look at FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips and Unified theory of Lucid Dreaming

      Self awareness is the key to lucid dreaming, reflect on your thoughts emotions, feelings, experiences. Although I don't recommend ADA it can help a ton with spotting dream signs more easily or anything that doesn't look normal.

      Ah! The gravity RC, the famous RC! yes, your brother is going to get far with that RC if he sticks to it! This RC was developed by Hukif and he is a member on this forum.

      Good luck!
      Thanks Habba!

      The links are great, I liked FryingMan's approach to LDing. I'm pretty excited he's a teacher here at DVA!

      Anyways, now I kinda wanna try out the Gravity RC, I feel like I'm missing out here haha! But yeah I'm afraid I'll end up giving up, because apparently it takes a lot of time to work, and only a handful of people have had success, from what I have read on the thread.

      I'll give SSILD a try tonight. I'm also always attempting DEILD at any opportunity btw (no success so far though, still trying to get that first LD).
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      Welcome to the DILD workbooks Centroid! My friend FryingMan and I help out with the workbooks. We have a lot of good experience between us.

      I recommend that you consider that learning lucid dreaming is most like a journey of learning and measured progress, a journey where your eyes will gradually open up to a world of possibilities! As you have surely already experienced, it is nothing like learning to ride a bike, as an example. It would only be like learning to ride a bike if you had to learn much about the different parts of the bike and how they work and how to adjust and maintain them to get the maximum speed or efficiency before you ever start truly riding. It would also involve much more falling off of the bike and getting back on. The things you learn during the journey can help you in so many ways in addition to learning to lucid dream regularly.

      I would love to see you overcome the trend of our younger members taking breaks of years at a time before coming back to lucid dreaming (taking a breather for a few days or finding balance is always okay!). In order to do that you will want to find a way to make it fit in with schooling, studying and life in general.

      Recall will come back up fairly quickly I bet and the tips Habba linked can help a lot with getting you back to your previous level and beyond.

      Quote Originally Posted by Centroid View Post
      Day Work

      1) So from what I understand here, RCing with dream signs is outdated, whereas awareness during the day is very important. But I’m a bit confused with the number of techniques and which one(s) I should do…

      2) So there is the awareness of your environment (ADA or SAT) and the awareness of yourself (Self-Awareness). Now which one is better, or is it possible to do a hybrid with both?

      3) Also, my brother is currently obsessed over the awareness of his own weight (Gravity RC). Would this be a viable thing to do? It’s kind of related to self-awareness i think. He claims he will become lucid every night, so there's competition which is always good (like with the race to space, if there hadn't been the Soviet Union the USA wouldn't have gone far).

      4)So I’m unsure of what to do during the day.
      1) I wouldn't really say that it is outdated and it does help with awareness during the day. It does seem like it is not practiced as much or if someone tries it that they don't stick to it very long (perhaps not long enough to get consistent results). That said I do like Sageous' RRC for building self-awareness. I recommend when you stop and look around in wonder that you put a little of yourself into the actual view by doing something like putting your finger on your nose as you look around and contemplate the RRC methods.

      2) I believe self-awareness work is much more applicable to lucid dreaming than ADA (see RRC above), although ADA may have some beneficial side effects.

      3) Yes, the technique is powerful, and it never hurts to try. However, as you mentioned in your later post, it seems very challenging to lock it in for nightly LD's and may be easier after some more experience, or can be part of your longer journey with slower progression of occasional gravity triggered LD's at first and more frequent later. You could also find that the technique fits perfectly for you or your brother. I am not at the every night of the month LD level. I sometimes go 6 nights in a row having LD's. I am in no rush though. I am enjoying the journey and the progress along the way, along with enjoying some fantastic dreams and lucid dreams.

      Night Work (with WBTB)

      Here I’m hesitating between MILD and SSILD. I have already tried MILD for a very long time with (almost) no result. Also I find it very boring after a number of attempts... However I am aware of the fact that some techniques need time to start producing results, and I have heard a lot about MILD’s reliability.

      So yeah, and the other technique is SSILD. It has also been very successful for a lot of people, so I think I’ll give it a try. I will see if it works better than MILD for me.
      I love SSILD due to all of the lucid dreams it has helped me to achieve! I feel the day work was crucial as well and that day work certainly adds to your level of awareness and lucidity which can help you get over the hump between non lucid dreams and lucid ones. With SSILD and any WBTB method, you will want to find the right time to wake up (around 4.5 or 6 hours), how long to stay up (5 to 30 minutes perhaps). You may even want to practice the cycles a few times during the day before the first time you try. That way you can go through the progression of the cycles more automatically, making it easier to do that evening without thinking too much (clear your head of any waking thoughts, maybe writing down any items that pop up that want your attention so that you can address them during the day). The timing of waking up and staying up has to do with finding the right balance of awakeness/sleepiness so that you can go to sleep fairly soon after performing the cycles, but also not so sleepy that you fall asleep at the beginning of performing the cycles.

      Oh and something very important I forgot to mention: here in France we have school on Saturday too (lucky us huh), and it starts every day at 8. So I guess I’ll try and go to bed sooner (at 9 maybe) to have time to do a proper WBTB. It might be tricky because I have to study a lot too. Will see how it goes, but attempting a DILD technique only once a week is not what I had in mind.
      I often don't try when I have something important the next day, or even a game so my physical performance is at a good level, but I do sometimes go to bed early to allow myself to still do a WBTB with SSILD and still have plenty of sleep.

      Nice set of goals!

      So there we have it, my first post ever! Yay! I think I’ll post my progress weekly, as there probably won’t be much to say every day…

      Thanks!
      There is definitely no requirement to post everyday but if you want to quickly jot down a daily (one sentence or more) dream summary or anything that you did that night and during the day towards your practice, I think it could be invaluable for you to look back at. I am often going back over my notes to see what I was doing during hot streaks and dry streaks to maximize my efforts.
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      Hello fogelbise!
      Thanks for your very helpful input!
      So I will look into RRC and start increasing my self-awareness. Btw, how often should one do this? Hourly, all day long, every time I think about it, or every time I see something weird? Also, I didn't quite get what you said about putting my finger on my nose. How does it help with self-awareness? lol
      SSILD sounds great too, I'll keep a log of wake-up time and stay-up time to find the right balance. Already practiced the cycles and feeling confident! I think I'll actually do it twice (or why not three times?) tonight, as I'm on holidays and can wake up late. I also started reading the SSILD thread, lots of interesting stuff in there!

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      Update:

      -Performed SSILD only once (forgot the first time)

      -The timing was perfect I think (5 hours in while staying up no more than 5 minutes) because I was able to finish the cycles, and fall asleep very quickly afterwards

      -Recalled a very long and vivid dream, which sort of turned into a pretty cool movie

      Overall:

      -I'm pretty happy of this dream, definitely something that I will keep for a long time (maybe even someday make an actual movie out of it!).

      -I believe SSILD was behind the vividness of the dream, this technique had great potential for me if it also induces lucid dreams! I'll keep doing it, maybe twice next time if I remember

      Anyway, very happy about this night.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Centroid View Post
      So I will look into RRC and start increasing my self-awareness. Btw, how often should one do this? Hourly, all day long, every time I think about it, or every time I see something weird? Also, I didn't quite get what you said about putting my finger on my nose. How does it help with self-awareness? lol
      SSILD sounds great too, I'll keep a log of wake-up time and stay-up time to find the right balance. Already practiced the cycles and feeling confident! I think I'll actually do it twice (or why not three times?) tonight, as I'm on holidays and can wake up late. I also started reading the SSILD thread, lots of interesting stuff in there!
      -I have a truly random alarm as part of the awoken app (android, there must be similar random alarms for apple devices) that I set to go off 12 random times between 8am and 10pm, so averaging a little over 1 hour between, but choose what works for you. I find that this is more reliable than remembering to do them when you see something weird, especially in the beginning, though if you can remember without an alarm many times throughout the day that is even better for prospective memory.

      -The finger on the nose thing. When you read about RRC, one of the things Sageous wants you to do is really stop and look around in wonder (& more). So try to stop right now and look around you perhaps in wonder that this could be a dream right now, or his idea of your effect on the people and things around you and them on you. Now repeat the same thing but this time put your finger on the tip of your nose as you look around and see if you get a kind of paradigm shift. If it does nothing for you, ignore the idea or try it later, it isn't part of the official RRC.

      -I suggest if you do the cycles multiple times (for example, a set of cycles per awakening, every 90 minutes or so) that you don't start until after 4.5 hours (in case you meant starting at bed time).

      Quote Originally Posted by Centroid View Post
      I'm pretty happy of this dream, definitely something that I will keep for a long time (maybe even someday make an actual movie out of it!).

      -I believe SSILD was behind the vividness of the dream, this technique had great potential for me if it also induces lucid dreams! I'll keep doing it, maybe twice next time if I remember

      Anyway, very happy about this night.
      Awesome!! Let us know if you put it in story or movie script form!! Very nice result!!

      I think I mentioned this already, but I do suggest keeping a log here or in your own notes of what works for you and the various day and night activities you are doing during a given timeframe in order to maximize your results going forward. When I was newer to SSILD I only thought about the lucid benefit, but the vivid dreams benefit definitely makes sense to me now.

    8. #8
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      Hi Centroid (bonjour!) and welcome to the DILD class! Thank you for your kind words, I really appreciate it.

      I'm right at the end of a reeeeeally long day and approaching a huge important milestone at work. I promise I will give you some solid feedback when I can, it might be a couple of days.

      In summary, I remember very well the "What should I do? There are so many options!" feeling. It's not necessarily a feeling that goes away! But over time you will settle eventually into what works well for you.

      I'm a really big LaBerge fan. Doing nothing but what was in Exploring The World Of Lucid Dreaming got me my first LD, a DILD, one month to the day I began the practice.

      What LaBerge says to do:

      + set intention (repeat each of these phrases to yourself for a while) at bed-time, that:
      1) "I have interesting and meaningful dreams"
      2) "I remember my dreams"
      3) "I notice wakings, remain still, and recall my dreams"

      + Build recall and keep a DJ. Every day I think especially to get started. Look forward to it. I have gotten lucid more than once when I did my DJ entry for the previous night right before bedtime. Really gets you thinking about dreaming!

      + Daytime awareness: intention/reflection moments, and RCs

      + Prospective memory exercises: work up to multiple targets during the day

      These things are all described in detail in Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming.

      Great to have you here! Never give up, dreaming and lucid dreaming is one of the most rewarding activities in life. The more you put into it, the more you'll get out of it!
      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
      FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips -- Awesome Links
      No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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      Hi FryingMan!

      Please don't worry about it, I'm not in a rush or anything, and my journey to my first lucid dream may take some time anyway...

      Thanks for the tips!

      I've also tried following LaBerge, but without much success after 2 months, so I gave up. The book is amazing nonetheless. Now I'm more in a self-awareness + SSILD kind of routine.

      About intentions (and affirmations), I never really thought anything about them, and have always regarded it as an unreliable and unscientific kind of thing. Also I have tried multiple times making myself wake up after about 5 hours of sleep with intention, but it has never worked... Maybe my brain isn't very influenced by this, I don't know. I'll still try those you wrote for a couple of nights, just to see...

      Daytime awareness is important, I agree. Btw, are you more into sensory awareness or self-awareness? Of course, both with reflection + RC.

      And is it still worth it to train my prospective memory if I'm not going to use MILD? Actually, I take it back, maybe it's good to have two available techniques to use after WBTB, because if I'm on a dry spell, switching to another could help.

      Vogelbise: I'll try and remember naturally without an alarm for now, will see how it goes. Also, I think I'll save the finger on the nose thing for later, I'm still very confused...

      Now going to bed with some dream recall intentions, will wake up, attempt DEILD if the awakening is natural, DJ, SSILD, and go back to sleep, all of this at least twice. I hope I get some sick dreams tonight!

      Anyway, thanks a bunch for helping us out here guys! I really like this workbook idea, it's the quickest way to progress in my opinion!

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      Hi Centroid!
      One very important part of LD practice is a continual and honest self-evaluation: are you doing you best in your practice? Are you meeting your short-term goals?

      So if you say you were following LaBerge for two months, yet were not doing either intention-setting or prospective memory exercises, then....were you *really* following him? I'm not trying to be critical here, just trying to help you reach a valid conclusion about the practice you were following at first.

      I think it's important to do what feels right to you. But I might suggest giving the "pure LaBerge" approach another shot for a while. Particularly focusing on dream recall and setting bed-time intention. If you have a deep-down suspicion that "ah, this intention stuff is nonsense" then it is possible that it will likely not work for you. LDing is a purely mental discipline, and so state of mind comes in to play in a very major way: beliefs and attitudes have a major influence on our thoughts and dreams.

      As for intention wakings, maybe you haven't made them important enough to you. You have to be really really excited about the notion of noticing wakings in order to practice recalling the dreams from the recent sleep cycle. It should feel similar to having a critical test at school or an important flight you can't miss the next morning. In these situations, we find ourselves noticing all the wakings during the night and constantly checking the time. I think it is not practical to maintain such strong intention over long periods of time (I myself stopped after about my first 3 months, it was pretty tiring), but it is a great way in the beginning to get a solid dream recall practice started.

      Yes! Prospective memory development is IMHO extremely beneficial. LaBerge is right IMO that one major key to getting lucid in dreams is remembering that you want to get lucid, while in the dream state. Another benefit to prospective memory training is that it activates your brain's goal-seeking center, which additionally can help with the intention wakings and remembering to reach for dream recall immediately upon every waking.

      I personally try to follow a path of mindful (self-aware) attention and reflection. It's a matter of emphasis: giving some attention to one's surroundings and sensory experience is part of that, I believe. But just a part: I always try in include a strong sense of self. One of my favorite things to do is to just STOP at random points throughout the day, fully immerse myself in the experience of the present moment and say, "*I*....am *HERE*....*NOW*...having this experience...what's my state? <RC>...." or something close to that.

      I try to avoid auto-pilot mode, or at least to quickly acknowledge when I've slipped into auto-pilot. Always look for opportunities to remain mindful when doing repetitive, habitual things. Like unlocking the door and getting into my car, putting the keys in the ignition, all this I tend to do without any thought to what I'm doing.

      In dreams, especially once you get your dream recall built up a bit more, you'll notice that we tend to be propelled forwards into acting or reacting without much thought. If instead you can build a strong sense of mindfulness/self-awareness/critical reflection, you will start noticing and acknowledging what you're experiencing, and can take a moment of thought before entering into action. Having that little pause to reflect is often the difference between lucidity and non-lucidity. The opportunities are small, so we must become fine-tuned to noticing their appearance.

      Any thoughts like "this is different," "that is strange," "hey look at that!", strong emotions like anger or fear or (heh) attraction/excitement, are all signposts prodding us to pay attention and to reflect and perhaps get lucid.

      It also helps to practice thought patterns during the day that include dreaming. Things like "If I were dreaming right now, I'd fly to the roof of that building over there...<RC>...". The more you do that, the more likely it is that you'll have these thoughts in dreams. My last LD was in fact exactly one of these: "If I were dreaming right now...HEY, I think I AM! <RC>, woohoo!" Another similar one is the recognition that "at any time, at any conscious moment, I could actually be in the dream state" (which is true! About 11% of our conscious experiences are in the dream state). I've had LDs from those kinds of thoughts, too.

      I don't want to overload you with things to do, but I personally found one of the most profound differences in my dreaming experience came from simply paying attention during the day, creating "memory markers" like: "I will remember *this* moment tonight when I review my day in the evening" (also a form of intention). At the end of the day, do a day review of the memories of the day's experiences, with special attention to recalling these marker moments. Just like at the end of the night, we do a review of the night's dream experiences. Making this a common practice I think helps our overall dreaming and dream recall.

      When performing your RCs, try to foster a genuine curiosity and skepticism about your state: do not every assume that you are awake (but also never do anything that would be dangerous in waking life without first thoroughly determining your state). If an RC indicates awake, do not think "I am not dreaming," rather think "hmm, well I *will* be dreaming tonight, and I'll notice it and get lucid|!" Also, take the opportunity to really slow down when you perform your RCs and think about the result. Did you give it enough attention? I reached a time where I was doing RCs in dreams but ignored the result even when the result indicating that I was dreaming! The antidote was slowing down and really concentrating on the RC, and that problem hasn't happened since.

      Well there is a more detailed response! I'd like to echo fogelbise's wishes that you younger practitioners stick with the practice: do not quit, and you will have a long life full of amazing dreams, lucid and non-lucid both. Find a way to work the awareness/attention in to your busy lives, and you'll find yourself getting lucid in dreams more and more!
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      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
      FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips -- Awesome Links
      No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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      Hey! Damn, I didn't expect so much that quick. Thanks for the comprehensive feedback! It took some time to absorb all of this.

      Ok, you got me, I did neither... Although I just might reconsider my opinion on bedtime intentions, because I had quite some interesting dreams last night, after repeating intentions before bed. But it's obviously too early to draw a conclusion on this. I will keep making these intentions, maybe throw in some lucid affirmations to make it MILD? Or is it better to focus solely on dream recall for now as you have already mentioned?

      So by improving my prospective memory, in theory intentions become more reliable? I will try and mix it up with daytime awareness, by becoming aware of myself and of the present moment (and past, nod to Sageous' RRC, also maybe on gravity too, why not, nod to Hukif) every time I see a pre-selected object or event. I think my day work will consist of this (aiming for ~10 times a day). What do you guys think? Is it maybe concentrating too many elements together (self-awareness, present and past (RRC), with Gravity RC, and of course the actual RC (nose-plug) at the end) which would diminish their efficiency? What to remove, if necessary? Maybe Gravity RC isn't essential, but I really feel like doing it, if only for a few minutes every hour.

      Also, I like your idea of memory markers, very interesting. Will do that too

      About techniques to become lucid, you mentioned earlier that I should focus solely on dream recall. But it seems to me that this would be wasting the opportunity to already begin trying out and getting used to techniques at the same time, and already starting to actively pursue lucid dreaming. My day work will try and improve my prospective memory, so I think I'll mix in MILD along with dream recall intentions before bed. And when I wake up to go to the toilet, throw in some SSILD cycles.

      Now I'm feeling like I'm trying everything at once, but I really want to have my first LD I hope I won't be overwhelmed by all this, and I'm not sure I'll be able to keep up all that day work when school starts again in a week...

      Now I also realize I'm very flexible in terms of what I want to practice and what I feel can work. I'm sure this is mainly positive, but I feel it isn't that great, because it might make me change easily when results aren't as good as I expect them to be. Thus, if I stick to only a couple of things to see what works for me, I'm afraid I'll convince myself to end the experiment prematurely and try something else. This is why one of my short-term goals is to "figure out which techniques to use, day and night", as I want to figure out precisely the best things to do and stick to them no matter what. So yeah, I might be inclined to throw in too much, which could drain my motivation. I hope you get what I'm trying to say, I'm not the best at getting ideas across on paper.

      Quick recap, the problem is:

      Is it too much stuff to try? If so, what's the least important that I have said above which could be removed/reduced? Also, I don't really feel like forgetting modern techniques/ideas and going all-in pure LaBerge. As you can see, I'm COMPLETELY in the "What should I do? There are so many options!" mindset, but I just don't want to give up on anything, everything you and I said sounds so great!

      Thanks, I really hope you can clear this up, I'm lost here...
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      Quote Originally Posted by Centroid View Post
      Hey! Damn, I didn't expect so much that quick. Thanks for the comprehensive feedback! It took some time to absorb all of this.

      Ok, you got me, I did neither... Although I just might reconsider my opinion on bedtime intentions, because I had quite some interesting dreams last night, after repeating intentions before bed. But it's obviously too early to draw a conclusion on this. I will keep making these intentions, maybe throw in some lucid affirmations to make it MILD? Or is it better to focus solely on dream recall for now as you have already mentioned?
      I will continue to promote the LaBerge approach to beginners. Nothing about this is "out of date" or "not modern" BTW. When you hit a winning approach, it is ageless .

      Intention/reflection moments: periodically throughout the day, stop whatever you're doing, and think what things would be like if you were currently in a dream: what would you possibly see, what would you feel or experience. Imagine those things happening, see yourself noticing them, realizing they are dream-like, and getting lucid and going on to perform your lucid dream goals.

      These I/R moments are in addition to shorter "RC moments" where you RC. Remember, it is memory and awareness that comes first, followed by the RC. The RC is just a tool to help you quickly determine your state. It is the intention to notice your state, your memory to remind you that you want to notice your state, and your developing habit of paying attention to your experiences that ultimately cause the beginnings of lucidity. "Habit/reflex RCs" in my experience don't happen that much in dreams. People are different, though. I'd never advocate doing so many RCs that you do them without awareness, I think that's counter-productive.

      So by improving my prospective memory, in theory intentions become more reliable?
      Prospective memory helps you successfully establish and follow through with trigger events: the next time "X" happens, then I will "Y". Yes they are related to intention, since you're setting intention to notice wakings, remain still and recall dreams.

      I will try and mix it up with daytime awareness, by becoming aware of myself and of the present moment (and past, nod to Sageous' RRC, also maybe on gravity too, why not, nod to Hukif) every time I see a pre-selected object or event. I think my day work will consist of this (aiming for ~10 times a day). What do you guys think? Is it maybe concentrating too many elements together (self-awareness, present and past (RRC), with Gravity RC, and of course the actual RC (nose-plug) at the end) which would diminish their efficiency? What to remove, if necessary? Maybe Gravity RC isn't essential, but I really feel like doing it, if only for a few minutes every hour.
      do what you feel like doing. Over time you will discover for yourself what you think is too much and what you think is beneficial.

      Also, I like your idea of memory markers, very interesting. Will do that too

      About techniques to become lucid, you mentioned earlier that I should focus solely on dream recall. But it seems to me that this would be wasting the opportunity to already begin trying out and getting used to techniques at the same time, and already starting to actively pursue lucid dreaming. My day work will try and improve my prospective memory, so I think I'll mix in MILD along with dream recall intentions before bed. And when I wake up to go to the toilet, throw in some SSILD cycles.
      You folks are all quite young and you have many decades of awesome dreaming in front of you assuming you never quit. Use that intense desire to establish a regular, consistent practice schedule and *stick to it*.

      Note that my emphasis on dream recall is not just about "remembering your dreams" (which of course is critical, otherwise why bother, right?) It's more about establishing what some of us call here "dream awareness:" meaning, awareness *of* our dreams. Realizing that we *do* dream a lot, every night. Realizing that any experience we're having MIGHT be in the dream state! It's about establishing a strong, close connection with your dreams: What do they "feel like" to you? What happens there frequently? Many times LDers get lucid just because they get "that dream feeling," not brought on by anything in particular, but with their general familiarity with the dream state and how it feels to them.

      Now I'm feeling like I'm trying everything at once, but I really want to have my first LD I hope I won't be overwhelmed by all this, and I'm not sure I'll be able to keep up all that day work when school starts again in a week...
      I remember the build-up to my first LD . I SOOO wanted one. And I got one! Then two, then three, etc. So will you! Just maintain that strong interest, keep thinking about dreaming in general, and work on the fundamentals: attention, reflection, recall. As long as you're doing that every day (and night!) on some way, your practice is sound. Then you just over time make tweaks here and there and try different things and form your own ideas about what works for you.
      Now I also realize I'm very flexible in terms of what I want to practice and what I feel can work. I'm sure this is mainly positive, but I feel it isn't that great, because it might make me change easily when results aren't as good as I expect them to be. Thus, if I stick to only a couple of things to see what works for me, I'm afraid I'll convince myself to end the experiment prematurely and try something else. This is why one of my short-term goals is to "figure out which techniques to use, day and night", as I want to figure out precisely the best things to do and stick to them no matter what. So yeah, I might be inclined to throw in too much, which could drain my motivation. I hope you get what I'm trying to say, I'm not the best at getting ideas across on paper.
      Figuring out what works for you is *not* a short-term goal! This is a long-haul hobby: we measure progress in months and years, not days/weeks. Again, as long as you are paying attention to your experiences, reflecting on them (is this dream like?), and working on remembering them, thinking about dreaming, setting strong intention to get lucid, you're pointed in the right direction.
      Quick recap, the problem is:

      Is it too much stuff to try? If so, what's the least important that I have said above which could be removed/reduced? Also, I don't really feel like forgetting modern techniques/ideas and going all-in pure LaBerge. As you can see, I'm COMPLETELY in the "What should I do? There are so many options!" mindset, but I just don't want to give up on anything, everything you and I said sounds so great!

      Thanks, I really hope you can clear this up, I'm lost here...
      Ah, I know how you feel. I can't tell you how many times I had epiphanies where I realized, "AH, NOW I KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO LUCID DREAM, IT'S JUST <something>!". Then I'd realize, well, wait, <something else> is also really important!

      The reason I love LaBerge is that he lays out a complete, step-by-step recipe. It's easy to follow, and it's not too much. I'd start there, then add/subtract once you get more experience.

      It all begins with becoming more and more familiar with your dreams. Sure, you can work in daytime awareness at the same time, I encourage that in fact.

      Pay attention to your waking life, and pay attention to your dreaming life. Critically reflect on all your experiences, and practice remembering them later on, the more, the better.
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      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
      FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips -- Awesome Links
      No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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      Quote Originally Posted by FryingMan View Post
      The reason I love LaBerge is that he lays out a complete, step-by-step recipe. It's easy to follow, and it's not too much. I'd start there, then add/subtract once you get more experience.

      It all begins with becoming more and more familiar with your dreams. Sure, you can work in daytime awareness at the same time, I encourage that in fact.

      Pay attention to your waking life, and pay attention to your dreaming life. Critically reflect on all your experiences, and practice remembering them later on, the more, the better.
      This, is AWESOME! Thanks FryingMan, you rock! I'm completely convinced, and will re-read ETWOLD in detail, and most importantly follow this quote. I think I'll print it out in big and stick it in my room

      Damn, you're good.

      Thanks again! (Attention, Reflection, Recall, all the way!)


      QUICK UPDATE

      I just napped (for one hour, didn't sleep great that night, damn mosquito), and at the end of this pretty long dream (well, one hour long, I guess), I look at my brother and say, 'Wanna lucid dream bro?', and then I wake up. So, does this count as a lucid dream? Pleeeeease? lol
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      Aw, shucks . Thanks for the nice sentiments!

      The definition of a lucid dream is pretty simple: it is a dream where you know you're dreaming. Awareness (both in the waking and in the dream states) moves on a continuous spectrum: sometimes very low, sometimes very high, but all share an underlying acknowledgement, however brief at times, that you are dreaming. So, if you can say you knew you were dreaming, yes, that would be a lucid dream! Personally, I don't count a dream as lucid unless I have either a solid thought acknowledging the dream state, or I say out loud something like "I am dreaming". There are semi-lucid dreams as well where you know you're in a different kind of experience than a standard waking one, where you maybe have and use powers (flying, magic, mind control, etc.) but where you do not go all the way to concluding that you're dreaming, I also do not count these as lucid dreams, but I'm perhaps stricter than most.

      But who cares what I or others say? Really the most important thing is that you *enjoy your dreams*. Don't obsess about counts or LDs (easy for me to say, right? I've already had my first... ), just really enjoy all your experiences, both waking and dreaming. That will lead to a very happy life!

      (But don't worry, from what you write, I think you are very very close to your first LD!)

      Even if not perhaps fully lucid, it is *very close*. Dreams about lucid dreaming are typically the very last step right before lucid dreams. Check the beginning pages of my DILD workbook and you can see the progression as it took place with me. Right before my first LD I got non-lucid dreams about LDing (saying, "<some guy> I heard is a lucid dreamer!" and "watching" a neighbor having a lucid dream [I could see her dream appear on a board!]).

      I would also recommend playing "RC" games with your brother (this may be in LaBerge as well if I remember correctly): try to say or do dream-like things to get the other to RC, kind of like an ongoing game of tag. Maybe using an agreed-upon "RC word of the day" when you hear that word you must RC. Use your imagination.
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      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
      FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips -- Awesome Links
      No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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      I also recommend "A Course In Lucid Dreaming", a companion book to Exploring The World Of Lucid Dreaming, which gives step-by-step exercises to do. It's not so easy to find now, I have a copy, PM me if you'd like one. His record keeping is maybe a bit too much, but the main thing is he lays out in outline format exactly how to do each exercise.

      I'd forgotten about "reminder:" put something near your bed that you can see easily that reminds you about dreaming, recalling dreams, and being lucid.

      Time for me to re-read as well!
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      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
      FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips -- Awesome Links
      No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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      Hey Centroid, nice workbook!

      I'm sure you'll have your first LD soon!

      Quote Originally Posted by FryingMan View Post
      I would also recommend playing "RC" games with your brother (this may be in LaBerge as well if I remember correctly): try to say or do dream-like things to get the other to RC, kind of like an ongoing game of tag. Maybe using an agreed-upon "RC word of the day" when you hear that word you must RC. Use your imagination.
      This is really really great! It's perfect that you and your brother are both into LDing! Back when I was studying in Germany (Erasmus program) I had a really good American friend really interested into LDing, we weren't really organized or thorough in our practice but I'm sure that the fact that we talked about what we wanted to do helped me having LDs!

      Try the "game of lucid tag" with your brother and give us some feedback

      You're both making me want to read ETWOLD once more!
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      Hey Pornocrates,

      Thanks for the support, I can feel it waiting for me tonight, hiding under my bed... I hope the same for you!

      I read through your workbook too, it's really interesting and helpful to see what other people are going through, and the tips they get.

      I will look into doing 'lucid tag', it seems fun but weird too... Will see what my brother thinks.

      One day we should do something, since we both live in Paris. Maybe like organizing a lucid dreaming event, or taking part in one, dunno if they have this here. But not now, I have a French oral test coming soon, and I want to finish my third trimester with style

      And why are we talking in English, hein? Mdr

      FryingMan: Hi, I already downloaded on my Kindle, Lucid Dreaming: A Concise Guide or something like that, also by Stephen LaBerge. It's short (90 pages) but to the point and with clear instructions, though maybe not as complete as the 'Course'. So I have all I need, thanks anyway!

      I'll make a quick recap of my current LD practice for my future self, who will of course not need to look here, being a master at LDing and all

      Day work:
      Doing 1+2+3 about 10 times a day,
      1) Attention (mostly SA)
      2) Reflection (with RRC + RC)
      3) Intention (with DDA as well)

      Night work:
      -Before bed: intentions about waking up and recalling my dreams (maybe adding in MILD for lucidity later, but I don't want to make the intents weaker)
      -At every waking: write down my dreams and stay up (no more than 10 min, Sensei's Micro-WBTB)
      -Then proceed with SSILD, but not spending too much time cycling as to not lose sleep

      fogelbise: Hey, I know you have some experience (and success I think) with SSILD, I just wanted to know (curiosity) how many LDs you had with it, how mostly (caught FAs, spontaneous DILD, WILD, DEILD), and after how long? And did you follow precisely what is written in the official tutorial, or did you customize it in any way? Also, I read about how Cosmic Iron could DEILD at will when waking after doing cycles, by allowing your head to sink into your pillow. Do you know what he is talking about? Thanks.

      MY FIRST LD WILL BE TONIGHT!!! YOU HEAR ME, SUBCONSCIOUS, TONIGHT!!!
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      Quote Originally Posted by Centroid View Post
      fogelbise: Hey, I know you have some experience (and success I think) with SSILD, I just wanted to know (curiosity) how many LDs you had with it, how mostly (caught FAs, spontaneous DILD, WILD, DEILD), and after how long? And did you follow precisely what is written in the official tutorial, or did you customize it in any way? Also, I read about how Cosmic Iron could DEILD at will when waking after doing cycles, by allowing your head to sink into your pillow. Do you know what he is talking about? Thanks.
      Sure. I got my first adult LD after performing SSILD. It was after 2 weeks of practicing various things and to answer your question, I have probably had somewhere around 350 LD's that I attribute to SSILD. Mostly spontaneous DILDs, but also a fair number of caught FAs, WILDs and DEILDs but most of those came later with more experience. Yes, I did start by precisely following what was written but I have been using a customized version for quite a long time and still do. I don't think I have ever used his head sinking into the pillow technique specifically but if you can connect with it, I am sure it can work for you too. I am a big fan of SSILD so let me know if you have any other questions on it.
      Last edited by fogelbise; 05-02-2016 at 06:29 AM.
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      I will start doing a recap of every single day and the night that follows, as well as my thoughts and worries, to keep better track of my lucid dreaming practice. The day mentioned is the day where I do my day work, not the day I wake up. So: Day work --> Night work --> Workbook recap using the date of the day work

      01/05/16 Recap

      Day work:
      I was trying out being self-aware all-day style (ADSA?) to see how it works out. Very difficult, had to keep reminding myself all the time. Maybe that's what's good, the fact that I'm always thinking about how I wasn't doing it and how I had to do it now. Probably. Anyway, I also questioned my reality with RRC+RC 10x, so that went pretty well. No DDA+intent though. I didn't find it very easy/natural and always forgot to do it.

      Night work:
      At bedtime I set intent to wake up after 5 hours, and I woke up 3.5 hours later. Not bad for a first attempt, but it was still too early for SSILD because I fell asleep before I could finish the first long cycle... And then I woke up for real... No LD, and no dreams recalled at all either. Very weird, usually I always have at least a couple of fragments. Will re-read FryingMan's dream recall post.

      A thought I had: I read in another thread that the best awareness to have is self-awareness, but critical awareness is important too. So self-awareness all-day (with RRC) I already am working on, and critical awareness would be reflection right? So, questioning reality with RC? I was thinking of doing instead of that an ADRC (All Day Reality Check), which would for me be Gravity RC. So going back to the bare bones of day work:
      -Attention = ADSA
      -Reflection = ADRC
      -Recall = RRC (good for SA too)
      So I would focus on SA with Gravity RC. I think maybe prioritizing SA, but checking out my weight for a few minutes when I usually reflect about reality (10x a day). This sounds good to me, it's something I would be glad to do, and it also follows FryingMan's theory (kind of).

      And fogelbise, how did you customize SSILD? Did it work better than before? Give me your secret please thanks!

    20. #20
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      Yes I imagine "critical awareness" is the reflection I mention so much. It's where you're thinking about your experience and analyzing it to try to determine your state ("is this weird?" "Is this a waking location?").

      I think it's good to keep critical reflection "general". By all means, try out an ADRC like gravity if you wish, but also keep looking for the unexpected, strange, new, odd, surprising, emotional, etc. in *everything* you experience.
      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
      FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips -- Awesome Links
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      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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      Quote Originally Posted by FryingMan View Post
      I think it's good to keep critical reflection "general". By all means, try out an ADRC like gravity if you wish, but also keep looking for the unexpected, strange, new, odd, surprising, emotional, etc. in *everything* you experience.
      Yes, will keep that in mind. Thanks! Making my day work is currently summed up by: ADSA (aware of myself internally + RRC) + ADRC (Gravity RC) + Critical Mindset
      I like writing down exactly what I need to do, it makes me more motivated (I can't say I'm unsure what to be doing so I don't do it out of laziness), and there's maybe some OCD involved too...

      Another thing: What I like to do, is once in a while retrace my steps in an imaginary map, going through every general location I had gone to that day, maybe an event or two for each to confirm I'm not inventing it, until I arrive at my bed. It's kind of what Sageous' RRC is about, but I find this "cleaner", haha. But I'm wondering if this actually does something to increase my SA...

      Also, while I was looking at threads here, one lead to the other, and I came across this, 2 years ago:
      http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...ta-twotld.html
      I was wondering:
      1) Is there anything new or worthwhile in there?
      2) Should I try out the exercises?
      3) Is the book actually coming out?

      Thanks

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      Quote Originally Posted by Centroid View Post
      Day work:
      I was trying out being self-aware all-day style (ADSA?) to see how it works out. Very difficult, had to keep reminding myself all the time. Maybe that's what's good, the fact that I'm always thinking about how I wasn't doing it and how I had to do it now. Probably. Anyway, I also questioned my reality with RRC+RC 10x, so that went pretty well.
      On SA and RRCs this recent post from Sageous is very good and it inspired me to achieve quite a good level of self awareness yesterday. That stepped up self awareness may have been responsible for my spontaneous DILD last night (no induction used last night). Here's his post : http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...ml#post2193957

      And fogelbise, how did you customize SSILD? Did it work better than before? Give me your secret please thanks!
      I'd say my customization worked better for me, but feel free to take parts of the original and my variation to create something that works best for you. My variation with the cycles is to start with a really brief warm-up. I do two breaths while focusing on the backs of my eyelids, two breaths focusing on hearing and then two breaths focusing a tactile feeling (I use the pressure that I can feel in my sternum area when laying on my back). This "warm-up" quickly reminds me what I am using for each of the 3 senses that make up SSILD. It is super quick and takes however long it takes to take 6 total breaths unless I start over due to feeling too sleepy and having trouble getting the three points of focus correct. (I usually no longer need this warm up step, but it may be useful until the process becomes more automatic or natural). Here's all I usually use now: I combine the 3 senses into each breath. I focus on vision as I start to breathe in. I focus on hearing as I am at the transition from breathing in to breathing out. I focus on feeling as I complete the process of breathing out. When I am trying to DILD I will do this for 2-3 minutes and then attempt to fall asleep.

      Quote Originally Posted by Centroid View Post
      Another thing: What I like to do, is once in a while retrace my steps in an imaginary map, going through every general location I had gone to that day, maybe an event or two for each to confirm I'm not inventing it, until I arrive at my bed. It's kind of what Sageous' RRC is about, but I find this "cleaner", haha. But I'm wondering if this actually does something to increase my SA...
      This sounds good, especially if you can visualize yourself and your interactions in each event.

      Also, while I was looking at threads here, one lead to the other, and I came across this, 2 years ago:
      http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...ta-twotld.html
      I was wondering:
      1) Is there anything new or worthwhile in there?
      2) Should I try out the exercises?
      3) Is the book actually coming out?
      1) I really liked many of the exercises. Some of the exercises may look similar to others you may have come across but likely with a new twist which can really help you to get that much closer to the goals of such exercises. 2) You are juggling quite a bit, especially considering that gravity RC can be quite a challenge, but it sounds like you are up for the challenge. I would say go through them slowly when you feel like you have time to or when you are looking for new material to keep your mind on lucid dreaming. I still use exercise 3A quite a bit and I will often go back over some of the others. 3) Last I heard he was toying with the idea of a different book somewhat related book. He also created a website not geared towards lucid dreaming but which has a great release technique, which was a free short course last time I checked. I find the release technique there very helpful for multiple scenarios related to lucid dreaming. The exercise is so simple that it is mind blowing. Search his name if you are interested and let me know if you don't see it. I am not allowed to link directly to websites that may be selling something.
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      I've recently started he Gravity RC also, so you're not alone!
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      On SA and RRCs this recent post from Sageous is very good and it inspired me to achieve quite a good level of self awareness yesterday. That stepped up self awareness may have been responsible for my spontaneous DILD last night (no induction used last night). Here's his post : http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...ml#post2193957
      Very interesting read, thanks. He should definitely write a book

      I'd say my customization worked better for me, but feel free to take parts of the original and my variation to create something that works best for you. My variation with the cycles is to start with a really brief warm-up. I do two breaths while focusing on the backs of my eyelids, two breaths focusing on hearing and then two breaths focusing a tactile feeling (I use the pressure that I can feel in my sternum area when laying on my back). This "warm-up" quickly reminds me what I am using for each of the 3 senses that make up SSILD. It is super quick and takes however long it takes to take 6 total breaths unless I start over due to feeling too sleepy and having trouble getting the three points of focus correct. (I usually no longer need this warm up step, but it may be useful until the process becomes more automatic or natural). Here's all I usually use now: I combine the 3 senses into each breath. I focus on vision as I start to breathe in. I focus on hearing as I am at the transition from breathing in to breathing out. I focus on feeling as I complete the process of breathing out. When I am trying to DILD I will do this for 2-3 minutes and then attempt to fall asleep.
      Thanks for sharing, I like it! But I think I'll stick to the original version, until I have some more experience. Or not, I'll see. Damn, last night I simply slept through my alarm and couldn't attempt to SSILD I'll have to crank up the volume tonight I guess.

      1) I really liked many of the exercises. Some of the exercises may look similar to others you may have come across but likely with a new twist which can really help you to get that much closer to the goals of such exercises. 2) You are juggling quite a bit, especially considering that gravity RC can be quite a challenge, but it sounds like you are up for the challenge. I would say go through them slowly when you feel like you have time to or when you are looking for new material to keep your mind on lucid dreaming. I still use exercise 3A quite a bit and I will often go back over some of the others. 3) Last I heard he was toying with the idea of a different book somewhat related book. He also created a website not geared towards lucid dreaming but which has a great release technique, which was a free short course last time I checked. I find the release technique there very helpful for multiple scenarios related to lucid dreaming. The exercise is so simple that it is mind blowing. Search his name if you are interested and let me know if you don't see it. I am not allowed to link directly to websites that may be selling something.
      I think I'll stick to Self-Awareness + Gravity RC (+ Critical Mindset), all day long, it's hard enough as it is!

      I've recently started he Gravity RC also, so you're not alone!
      Thanks Habba, we're all in this together! Yay! But I think it's kind of risky going all in with Gravity RC, so that's why I also practice being self-aware, with SSILD at night for some lucids along the way too, you know. Actually, if I get good at Gravity RC, and start getting gravity-induced lucids, then I'll make SSILD being aware only of gravity, without sight, sound, or touch, to boost the success. One day, maybe in a couple of months, who knows if I even will have my first lucid dream


      03/05/16 RECAP

      Day work:
      -I tried combining Gravity RC with Self-Awareness, its kind if difficult to do both at the same time, so I did Gravity RC, focusing on my legs, when walking, and Self-Awareness, while doing an activity that doesn't require walking. I'll try and keep that up today, will see how it goes.
      -I kind of like it actually, so I guess that's REALLY gonna help me stick to it.

      Night work:
      -Slept through my alarm. Will make it louder tonight, and intend to wake up when I go to sleep.
      -NO RECALL TODAY! Can you imagine that??? I woke up motionless with my mind completely blank. Will definitely make an effort reading dream recall threads, and intention at night, along with the intention to wake up to my alarm. Its maybe because I have gone to bed a bit later than I am used to (midnight instead of around 10:30). I'll try and go to bed sooner this time.

      Additional notes:
      Not been lucid yet, but still motivated and confident. Its been almost two weeks though. BUT I WILL NOT GIVE UP. I WILL LUCID DREAM!
      Habba likes this.

    25. #25
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      The thing about the ADRC is that the target you choose should really be something you notice in dreams on a regular basis. Thinking about it a lot can induce the occurrence in dreams, though. I had several occasions of acute gravity awareness (for me, always a feeling of being too light) after I'd done it for a little while.

      That's why Hukif says the target really should be personal for every practitioner, depending on what you notice how dreams feel like.

      Argh, I do not like no recall days! Usually that's a sign that there is stress going on in other areas of your life that is dominating your thoughts. If you just stick to the practice, these will remain rare. I myself have them from time to time, but probably somewhere around only 1% of nights.

      Two weeks is really just a drop in the bucket. LD practice is a life-long pursuit. If you continue you WILL get lucid, of that there is no doubt. Probably very soon, but everyone's timetable is different.

      A regular sleep schedule definitely helps recall, as does reaching for dreams as soon as you find yourself awake.
      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
      FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips -- Awesome Links
      No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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