Thread: Break Free

I therefore affirm that my heart and mind are as pure as that of a baby.

Originally Posted by espsika

I therefore affirm that my heart and mind are as pure as that of a baby.

That's so good for you!

i think it's good to import rules, or to limit yourself to a certain degree. I personally think things would get really boring, really fast if i knew everything that was going to happen, or if i was able to control every aspect of my dream.

CosmicIron:

You've touched upon a very important -- and often overlooked -- aspect of LD'ing; thanks for sharing!


Since it is very difficult, if not impossible to truly enter a dream "like a new born baby with the purest mind and an innocent heart," do you think there might be other options?

For instance, I think that if you develop a very high level of self-awareness during waking life, you should be able in the dream to remember that all these things, all these rules, are of your own creation and can be changed, manipulated, or simply erased if you set your mind to it.

In other words, it might be better to be fully aware of "Your" presence in a dream, and that you've dragged all of your life's baggage -- rules, expectations, beliefs, endless archetypes and metaphor, etc -- than to attempt to sidestep them. That way you can do something about them as they occur; or at least have an understanding of why you can't fly through your dream house's damn ceiling again.

Also, a possible caveat: entering a dream with innocence and purity might, ironically, make lucidity very difficult, if not impossible (or even necessary, since that kind of attitude would create a wonderful experience unto itself). Why? Because LD'ing is all about bringing our "selves" into a dream, and wouldn't entering one with "like a new born baby with the purest mind and an innocent heart" mean we're leaving our selves behind, in most cases?

These are of course just thoughts -- I really think you've stated something important, and to which all LD'ers should pay attention and think about. Just trying to push the conversation...

Originally Posted by Sageous

CosmicIron:

You've touched upon a very important -- and often overlooked -- aspect of LD'ing; thanks for sharing!


Since it is very difficult, if not impossible to truly enter a dream "like a new born baby with the purest mind and an innocent heart," do you think there might be other options?

For instance, I think that if you develop a very high level of self-awareness during waking life, you should be able in the dream to remember that all these things, all these rules, are of your own creation and can be changed, manipulated, or simply erased if you set your mind to it.

In other words, it might be better to be fully aware of "Your" presence in a dream, and that you've dragged all of your life's baggage -- rules, expectations, beliefs, endless archetypes and metaphor, etc -- than to attempt to sidestep them. That way you can do something about them as they occur; or at least have an understanding of why you can't fly through your dream house's damn ceiling again.

Also, a possible caveat: entering a dream with innocence and purity might, ironically, make lucidity very difficult, if not impossible (or even necessary, since that kind of attitude would create a wonderful experience unto itself). Why? Because LD'ing is all about bringing our "selves" into a dream, and wouldn't entering one with "like a new born baby with the purest mind and an innocent heart" mean we're leaving our selves behind, in most cases?

These are of course just thoughts -- I really think you've stated something important, and to which all LD'ers should pay attention and think about. Just trying to push the conversation...

Sageous,

Thanks for the comment! You are correct this is more an idealistic statement than a practical trick. The main purpose is to let people know that in a dream, the only limit is yourself. The process of learning to go beyond these limits, and to see through the illusions, is the very process of heading toward total freedom of the mind, and maybe even enlightenment. Indeed, this concept is actually at the very core of Dream Yoga.

Originally Posted by lilfrankster101

i think it's good to import rules, or to limit yourself to a certain degree. I personally think things would get really boring, really fast if i knew everything that was going to happen, or if i was able to control every aspect of my dream.

From my own experience it will get even more interesting instead of "boring". When that happens you step into the realm of "higher state of consciousness", which is fascinating beyond words.

Originally Posted by CosmicIron

Sageous,

Thanks for the comment! You are correct this is more an idealistic statement than a practical trick. The main purpose is to let people know that in a dream, the only limit is yourself. The process of learning to go beyond these limits, and to see through the illusions, is the very process of heading toward total freedom of the mind, and maybe even enlightenment. Indeed, this concept is actually at the very core of Dream Yoga.

Understood; I guess I was waxing practical there. And you're right on the money about this ideal being tied directly to those of dream yoga.

Originally Posted by Sageous

CosmicIron:

You've touched upon a very important -- and often overlooked -- aspect of LD'ing; thanks for sharing!


Since it is very difficult, if not impossible to truly enter a dream "like a new born baby with the purest mind and an innocent heart," do you think there might be other options?

For instance, I think that if you develop a very high level of self-awareness during waking life, you should be able in the dream to remember that all these things, all these rules, are of your own creation and can be changed, manipulated, or simply erased if you set your mind to it.

In other words, it might be better to be fully aware of "Your" presence in a dream, and that you've dragged all of your life's baggage -- rules, expectations, beliefs, endless archetypes and metaphor, etc -- than to attempt to sidestep them. That way you can do something about them as they occur; or at least have an understanding of why you can't fly through your dream house's damn ceiling again.

Also, a possible caveat: entering a dream with innocence and purity might, ironically, make lucidity very difficult, if not impossible (or even necessary, since that kind of attitude would create a wonderful experience unto itself). Why? Because LD'ing is all about bringing our "selves" into a dream, and wouldn't entering one with "like a new born baby with the purest mind and an innocent heart" mean we're leaving our selves behind, in most cases?

These are of course just thoughts -- I really think you've stated something important, and to which all LD'ers should pay attention and think about. Just trying to push the conversation...

What i understood from what cosmiciron is saying is this: clear and empty your mind of natural laws and control your dreams without an atom of doubt.

Originally Posted by espsika

What i understood from what cosmiciron is saying is this: clear and empty your mind of natural laws and control your dreams without an atom of doubt.

...Then you understood CosmicIron well, I think.

I edited my response to CosmicIron above slightly to reflect that I believe what he said was correct, and very necessary here. But I also wanted to suggest that, practically speaking, actually doing that without taking the first steps toward strong self-awareness is next to impossible, and might even backfire.

So yes, a fully cleared mind, with all earthly and egoic illusions left behind, is a mind physically ready for total dream control and perhaps transcendental experience. As you said, not one atom of doubt can be on hand if you're seeking enlightenment in the manner of dream yoga, but those pesky atoms have a real habit of hanging around, unless you have fully mastered your sense of self.

As to the caveat, that still stands. You can indeed abandon all doubt without abandoning your self, and all those things you've done throughout your life to prepare for the jump to advanced LD'ing, transcendence, enlightenment, or whatever else might be waiting for us out there. However: To become a "newborn baby with the purest of mind and innocence of heart" is also to enter the dream with no knowledge of your self, your potentials, and the new laws you can create because you know who and where you are in a dream. Indeed, that kind of perfect innocence might prevent LD'ing from ever happening, because you are unable in that state to remember who you are, or what you seek. Control would not exist at any rate, because you also would have abandoned the mental stuff you needed for it.

As I said, I guess I was congratulating CosmicIron on the thread, but suggesting that there may be a couple more steps to take before that perfectly emptied mind and its reward of spiritual freedom are reachable. You can't just go there instantly -- well, actually you can, but you can't do it without knowing you did it afterward!

I feel like I'm muddying the waters at this point....

Originally Posted by Sageous

...Then you understood CosmicIron well, I think.

I edited my response to CosmicIron above slightly to reflect that I believe what he said was correct, and very necessary here. But I also wanted to suggest that, practically speaking, actually doing that without taking the first steps toward strong self-awareness is next to impossible, and might even backfire.

So yes, a fully cleared mind, with all earthly and egoic illusions left behind, is a mind physically ready for total dream control and perhaps transcendental experience. As you said, not one atom of doubt can be on hand if you're seeking enlightenment in the manner of dream yoga, but those pesky atoms have a real habit of hanging around, unless you have fully mastered your sense of self.

As to the caveat, that still stands. You can indeed abandon all doubt without abandoning your self, and all those things you've done throughout your life to prepare for the jump to advanced LD'ing, transcendence, enlightenment, or whatever else might be waiting for us out there. However: To become a "newborn baby with the purest of mind and innocence of heart" is also to enter the dream with no knowledge of your self, your potentials, and the new laws you can create because you know who and where you are in a dream. Indeed, that kind of perfect innocence might prevent LD'ing from ever happening, because you are unable in that state to remember who you are, or what you seek. Control would not exist at any rate, because you also would have abandoned the mental stuff you needed for it.

As I said, I guess I was congratulating CosmicIron on the thread, but suggesting that there may be a couple more steps to take before that perfectly emptied mind and its reward of spiritual freedom are reachable. You can't just go there instantly -- well, actually you can, but you can't do it without knowing you did it afterward!

I feel like I'm muddying the waters at this point....

I agree with you. From a practical point rasing one's self-awareness is a crucial first step. In addition to being a necessary first step, it also plays a key role in achieving higher state of consciousness.

What espsika said is actually quite practical too. Even though it is difficult to achieve, holding that kind of mentality certainly will give us more control in a lucid dream. In a recent email exchange with Robert Waggoner we discussed the difference between "truly expecting something to happen" and "wishing for something to happen". While the former gives us control, the later usually causes us to lose control. By "clearing the mind" and "ridding doubts", we reach closer to our true inner self with more affirmation. This attitude alone will give us better result in dream control.

Your idea, if I understand correctly, is to first bring the "frameworks" into your dreams, essentially letting them manifest. Once they manifested we can deal with them via direct manipulation. Again, this is really dream yoga, and it is a highly practical way to liberate the mind. I'm with you on that one.

My mind is filled with fear and doubt. When i'm awake i feel i can invoke some higher spiritual being. But when LDing, the sensations i perceive are fearful.
This should be under beyound dreaming, just siting an example. I need help too. . .

Originally Posted by espsika

My mind is filled with fear and doubt. When i'm awake i feel i can invoke some higher spiritual being. But when LDing, the sensations i perceive are fearful.
This should be under beyound dreaming, just siting an example. I need help too. . .

In LDs we face our inner self directly, face to face. In day-time, our fears are suppressed and can often be only dealt with by reasoning, which is very weak. In an LD they can easily manifest themselves and thus open to direct manipulation. Merely emptying our mind and letting go of the fear is often ineffectual. Instead, we should let the fear manifest so we can directly interact with it. Once it manifests, we may choose to confront it with force, or in this case, love usually works better. As soon as you demonstrate your compassion over the fearful creatures, they change into better beings or simply vanish. This act produces profound effects that will benefit us both in day-time and dreams.

CosmicIron; thank you for being so elaborate, i appreciate.