Thread: Geography and Navigation in Dreams

Jakob:

Two final questions for you: When did I ever, even once, say, intimate or remotely suggest that everyone has perfect dream control? That resembles absolutely nothing I think, much less would say here or anywhere else.

Show me the times I wrote LOL or "rotfl" anywhere in my posts to you-- or on any other of my posts on the site. I do not do that, ever... Did you think I might have forgotten that? Why do think I was laughing at you?

Oh, and aside from my "condescension" comment, which Stephen sort of admitted to above, he was never attacked, because he opted not to join the conversation -- unless you consider the sincere questions I originally posited "attacks," which would be very sad.

If you have absolutely nothing nice, comstructive, or at all mature to say, it would be really nice if you kept to yourself. You may worship the man, but I'm betting your posts here are thoroughly embarrassing Mr. Berlin.

Now we're done.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Jakob:

Two final questions for you: When did I ever, even once, say, intimate or remotely suggest that everyone has perfect dream control? That resembles absolutely nothing I think, much less would say here or anywhere else.

And where did Stephen or I ever, even once, say, intimate or remotely suggest that perfect dream control is impossible to achieve?

Show me the times I wrote LOL or "rotfl" anywhere in my posts to you-- or on any other of my posts on the site. I do not do that, ever... Did you think I might have forgotten that? Why do think I was laughing at you?

I just said that it doesn't piss me off. You haven't done it to me, but your buddy Mzzkc did laugh at my comments. Look on page one, you can see it. It's irrelevant though because I really don't mind if I make someone laugh. If you took offense at my LOLs then I apologize, really.

Oh, and aside from my "condescension" comment, which Stephen sort of admitted to above, he was never attacked, because he opted not to join the conversation -- unless you consider the sincere questions I originally posited "attacks," which would be very sad.

Well, you called someone condescending, who really wasn't trying to come off as condescending. Maybe you don't see that as an attack, but your repeated assertions that he is somehow forcing his views upon all lucid dreamers could also be interpreted as an attack.

If you have absolutely nothing nice, comstructive, or at all mature to say, it would be really nice if you kept to yourself.

I believe that I have said some nice, constructive, and mature things on this forum. This is not the only thread I participate in. Although I believe my posts in this particular thread have also been nice, constructive, and mature.

You may worship the man, but I'm betting your posts here are thoroughly embarrassing Mr. Berlin.

We'll let Mr. Berlin be the judge of that.

Now we're done.

Whatever floats your boat. I personally have no problem with you, or with anyone who has different views/experiences. As I said, I really don't get pissed off that easily.

"There is no such thing as bad publicity." - Liberace

"Everybody please keep posting." - Stephen Berlin

Originally Posted by StephenBerlin

"Everybody please keep posting." - Stephen Berlin

On topic perhaps if we can.

This should also be interesting: http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/what-y...ontrol-133070/

I hate jumping into a discussion this late into things, but the OP was insightful and well written.

Originally Posted by StephenBerlin

If you have a specific destination in mind that is not within your current dream scene, you should rule out all forms of ground transportation. Walking or running, notwithstanding their cardiovascular benefits to your dream body, are exercises in futility. Should you elect to traverse your dream terrain on foot, you will soon discover that ruffians will accost, ladies will allure, and your emerging dream surroundings will lead you astray from where you are going long before you don't get there.

Ha! Ain't that the truth! Lucid time is a precious commodity, and the more time you waste, the more likely you are to get distracted by something. Yes, you can learn to ignore these attention traps, but nobody is perfect.

Originally Posted by StephenBerlin

Driving when dreaming made me start drinking. Automobiles in dreams (manufactured in some alloy of anxiety) are notoriously undependable. If your car hasn't been lost, stolen or vandalized, you'll be lucky if it starts. And don't expect the instrument panel to be much help. The gauges only indicate levels and degrees of mocking. Consequently, car problems are a compulsory dreamsign, and the license plate is your registered reality check.

The problem with cars is that they have baggage so to speak. THe archetype or probability waveform for motor vehicles has associations with all kinds of unhelpful things like running out of gas, flat tire, engine trouble, traffic jams, road blocks, accidents, all kinds of stuff. Maybe none of those things will happen, and some people may be more likely to experience those outcomes than others. But the fact is those outcomes are inherently linked to motor vehicles.

Originally Posted by StephenBerlin

If you travel much in your waking life, you will also find yourself out-of-town in your dreams. Leave your Triple A map on the nightstand though. It doesn't show that New York borders Arizona, and that Mexico is just across the river from Quebec. Our clever inner cartographer pulls destinations together by association. I grew up in Binghamton, New York, but for many years lived in Nevada. Hence New York, in one of my dreams was adjacent to Arizona, presumably because it shares "the designation I call home" with Nevada. In another example, I have crossed the St. Lawrence River to get to Quebec, and I have crossed the Rio Grande to get to Mexico, Consequently, when I recently visited a "dreamed version" of Quebec City, I could see Mexico just across the river. My dream slipped up and missed a suite correlation thought. I should have been staying at the Old Quebec City L'Auberge Hotel.

The human brain does not store data like a computer does. It's a neural network, and neural nets store patterns. These patterns can be thought of as archetypes. Every house you've lived in will be stored in the "home" pattern. This goes for anything, schools, cities, rivers. So if you are familiar with 2 cities that have rivers, you could be in one city, walk to the river, and find yourself in the other city that you know has a river. First city has a link to river, river has a link to both cities, so from the river you could come out in either city.

The collective of Russian dreamers known as the Dream Hackers came up with this solution to dream mapping. Unfortunately the website with their translated work is no longer up and running. Pretty sure I quoted the relevant sections here on DV somewhere, but dammed in I can find it now.

The dream landscape may seem unstable and ever changing, but that's only if you think of it in terms of real world maps. The real dream map is actually the totality of your interconnected archetypes.

@ The Cusp; I like this interpretation of the dream world as actually quite constant, as it it reflects your neural networks. It's funny, my neighbourhood always looks a very certain way in my dreams, it substantially different from reality, and yet it is consistently the same. I wonder what connections cause it to appear that way.

Originally Posted by Jakob

This should also be interesting: http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/what-y...ontrol-133070/

And the results so far, are pretty interesting. They confirm my belief that perfect dream control is not easy to achieve.

Originally Posted by Jakob

And the results so far, are pretty interesting. They confirm my belief that perfect dream control is not easy to achieve.

LOL! No, it is not easy to achieve. I have not reached it. I can not claim perfect dream control after a life largely devoted to this. Let's see. I can teleport very well and that is handy, but DCs still get in my way trying to drag me into little dream plots. I can not usually shrug them off and erase them. I also still have some random events derail my plans. Less distraction now then 25 years back, but the dream still is not completely at my control. I guess we will see what skills ten more years leads to. I assume if we gain total control, the dreams would get to predictable and boring.

Originally Posted by sivason

LOL! No, it is not easy to achieve. I have not reached it. I can not claim perfect dream control after a life largely devoted to this. Let's see. I can teleport very well and that is handy, but DCs still get in my way trying to drag me into little dream plots. I can not usually shrug them off and erase them. I also still have some random events derail my plans. Less distraction now then 25 years back, but the dream still is not completely at my control. I guess we will see what skills ten more years leads to. I assume if we gain total control, the dreams would get to predictable and boring.

Or, perfect dream control is a transcendental event. In other words, it might not be predictable and boring, but something else altogether!

I too, have never achieved perfect dream control -- I haven't even tried very hard to do so. This is because whenever my dreams approach "perfect" control, they tend to head off into directions that leave any interest in control (or the dream itself) far behind. I guess the levels of awareness, focus, and energy needed to control every aspect -- "physical," emotional, intellectual, spiritual -- of dream life are so high that maintaining control of anything, much less everything, becomes very unimportant.

I'm not sure if that makes sense; but I hope it at least made my point.

That said: Perfect dream control is not necessary to navigate a dream, or else none of us would even be able to discuss doing so! Indeed, independent exploration of the dreamscape can be done with minimal control: you could even be "going with the flow" of a dream, letting your dreaming mind do all the work, yet still, with appropriate expectation and awareness, move yourself around that "provided" dream at will.

Originally Posted by Jakob

I just said that it doesn't piss me off. You haven't done it to me, but your buddy Mzzkc did laugh at my comments. Look on page one, you can see it. It's irrelevant though because I really don't mind if I make someone laugh. If you took offense at my LOLs then I apologize, really.

Come now, don't tell me you didn't chuckle a bit when reading back over it, too. After all, someone with such great understanding of how this forum operates would know why comparing BillyBob's work to MoSh's is highly amusing and bound to spark giggles from people who've been here awhile.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I'm not sure if that makes sense; but I hope it at least made my point.

It did, and you did. However, I don't think most people will really get what you're saying.

You know, lack of a decent point of reference and all.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

It did, and you did. However, I don't think most people will really get what you're saying.

You know, lack of a decent point of reference and all.

Well that sort of sucks, I think...

Can I suggest then that 'ultimate' dream control (as a transcendental event) lies not in misguided attempts at establishing a ego-driven mastery over dreaming, but in working with the dream and recognising the transitory (and yep, I'm going to say it) illusory nature of the ego.
Robert Waggoner makes the analogy 'no sailor controls the sea', as sailors on the turbulent oceans of the dream, we can only direct our small and fragile craft, the ego. I would say from there it is the dreamer's choice to try to conquer the storms of the sea or sail on a calm ocean. The fruition of a dreamer's potential cannot be realised with the realisation that the unconscious mind is more powerful and creative than the waking mind.

I say that limits to dream control lie with the self rather than the dream.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Can I suggest then that 'ultimate' dream control (as a transcendental event) lies not in misguided attempts at establishing a ego-driven mastery over dreaming, but in working with the dream and recognising the transitory (and yep, I'm going to say it) illusory nature of the ego.
Robert Waggoner makes the analogy 'no sailor controls the sea', as sailors on the turbulent oceans of the dream, we can only direct our small and fragile craft, the ego. I would say from there it is the dreamer's choice to try to conquer the storms of the sea or sail on a calm ocean. The fruition of a dreamer's potential cannot be realised with the realisation that the unconscious mind is more powerful and creative than the waking mind.

I say that limits to dream control lie with the self rather than the dream.

Nicely said, Ctharlhie, and I agree that "limits to dream control lie with the self rather than the dream." No question.

Mind if I mix and match your sea metaphor with my earlier post? What if, instead of sailing upon the calm sea or (arguably but not necessarily worse in the context of your metaphor) fighting the surrounding storms, why not stop being a sailor and become the sea: don't navigate, but unite with the water and learn to absorb (and understand) the energy of the storm? It is all, after all, collectively You, right?

I think that to assume that your unconscious -- and whatever other unknowns there are swirling in the depths of that sea -- must always flow beneath your "hull" is to set illusory limits, based on ego, that might not need to exist. And, mix-and-match continuing, the act of surrendering some or all ego to swim in that sea -- or dissolve into it -- does indeed transcend what we believe we know of control, the dream, and waking consciousness itself. Illusion is swept away.

So yeah, ego, and its innate, illusory, assumption that the "You" attempting to control circumstances and conditions in the dream must be the same sort of "You" that exists in waking life, is a truly limiting thing. To try to form your entire Self (aka the sea/dreamscape) into something that resembles -- but can never be -- your brief time in the waking world seems, from that perspective, a very small and egotistical thing to do indeed!

But then again, if you become the sea, will there even be a need to navigate, or establish a geography at all, since, as the sea/total dreamscape, you know all points of your self (conscious, unconscious, whatever) at once?

I think you've very poetically expressed what I was trying to grasp at, removing the distinctions between the ego and dream to go beyond control, almost like the aims of dream yoga in some ways. Do you think that achieving this in one dream would cause a lasting impact on all subsequent dreams (if not in action then attitude at least), and would aid in the more 'mundane' (if we can indeed call it that) aspects of control such as changing the scene, manifesting objects/characters etc?

I had a LD (very vivid, very real to the point when I woke up I couldn't tell the difference between the real world and that LD). In that dream I tried to transport myself to a far location. I live in California. I couldnt do it though. I find mental mind transportation from A to B at least right now almost impossible when I trying hard to focus on it. Im researching techniques lolol on how to do it. Here is from my diary:

June 16th, 2012:

Around 1PM I took a nap. I tried testing a new mental relaxation exercise for about an hour, but it didn’t work. I let myself drift to sleep for a short time after this failed mental exercise. I did not take G&C before my nap or any suppliments. I fell instantly into a fast Lucid Dream around 2PM. I was downstairs in my living room. I was originally sitting at the island style kitchen table, and then it dawned on me after I got up from the chair that I was dreaming. I said out loud “I’m dreaming" to confirm. Everything look the same as in my non-dreaming real time kitchen except a little out of frequency which is how I knew I was dreaming but it came into focus. But still so very vivid and real feeling even daylight outside. I immediately tried to focus on a location and a person. I was going to try to transport myself. to a distant real life/time location but not too distant.. A test which I said I would do next time I LD for a certain reason. So I focused on fields and ranches in Montana. However instantly I started to fade black, and knew it as if I couldn’t or was prohibited from leaving my present scenery. I was like “I lost the dream now” and woke up instantly. I couldn't even try and fade back in and hold the dream. It could have also been I wasn’t fully tired and only in a soft sleep so I didn’t have the consciousness to transport but as soon as I tried transportaing to a new location it drained me. The whole dream lasted only around about five minutes. I did not return back to napping, and got up from my bed, and continued with my normal day. End of Entry.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I think you've very poetically expressed what I was trying to grasp at, removing the distinctions between the ego and dream to go beyond control, almost like the aims of dream yoga in some ways. Do you think that achieving this in one dream would cause a lasting impact on all subsequent dreams (if not in action then attitude at least), and would aid in the more 'mundane' (if we can indeed call it that) aspects of control such as changing the scene, manifesting objects/characters etc?

In my experience the state of "trancendence" is a good goal, but in the end is not overly exciting, at least not "The Clear Light of the Mind" thing. Here is a quote from my recent DJ entery about it """Yawn" some yogis may fantasize that this state is the ultimate level, but I think it is that they either want the 'goal' to be attainable, or they want to feel that because they can do this, that they have reached an end. I find it just one more state of awareness."""
Here is the link if you want to read the entry.05/26/12 Clear Light of the Mind-Yawn - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I think we all would like to imagine that there is some goal, that when reached, means, you did it, your at the end. That is just not how it works.


Now, to your questions. Acheiving this state in even one dream will have a lasting effect on you in the ego filled waking world; you just 'understand' in a new way. Will it impact dream control? It is like any LD in that practice improves your skills in general, but there is a very very powerful way this can be used to reach extream levels of dream control.
The average Buddhist monk may be appaulled that I am teaching "Transendence" as a useful tool in a hobby, rather than the ultimate end. However, I am not concerned with what anyone may think.
Remember the scene in "The Matrix" where they appear in a world that is all white except for them? In that place the charectors could be free of the Matrix and its dangers while training in a world they choose. Ok, that is a sci-fi movie, but clearly whoever consulted on the LD aspects added in the flick knew about this trick. You must first get to the "Clear LIght of the Mind" phase. In that phase you are not seperate from anything, you are free of thought, form, ego, and there is no sceenery except a magical clear whiteness.
Fine, now what? We can bask in the "oneness" we can free ourselves from "duality", but so what? I mean "what then"? Spiritual growth is wonderful, but you never reach an final end goal. So you can eventually reach this state, why not use it for something?


Here we go. I call this trick "White Room" dreams. (The background can actually be grey sometimes) I get to the state of egoless trancendence, and then I pull back just enough to start to remember my own ego and self. I create a dream body to my liking and work on stablizing it. At this point no scenery exists except for my body. You can then, free from DCs and such, begin to create any scene you want. The background only fills in as you wish, so it can be you and a table, or you and a cottage that is floating in a feild of white.
Here is how this creates stunning and amazing dream control,,, you only bring a tiny portion of your ego and sub-concious mind back, so you are free from the distractions normal LDs have.
Pro's: you cn have ultimate control such as shape shifting, levitating a mountain, anything! No distractions.
Con's: All independant aspects of dreaming are gone. This means no DCs unless you create thenm on purpose. The said DC will be very robotic, only moving if you focus on it. Nothing interesting ever happens unless you think it up and cause it to happen.

This advice is probably not much use to most dreamers as you must first reach a state some believe is "the ultimate" so many will never get there. I really just offer it up as an interesting side note on dream control. I enjoy this "White Room" dreaming if I want to practice skills, but the lack of plot and randomness takes all the "Dream" out of it.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Do you think that achieving this in one dream would cause a lasting impact on all subsequent dreams (if not in action then attitude at least), and would aid in the more 'mundane' (if we can indeed call it that) aspects of control such as changing the scene, manifesting objects/characters etc?

Yes and yes. I would say more, but Sivason beat me to it, and did a much better job than I would have anyway, save for one small bit that I'll mention to him in a second.

Originally Posted by sivason

In my experience the state of "transcendence" is a good goal, but in the end is not overly exciting, at least not "The Clear Light of the Mind" thing. Here is a quote from my recent DJ entry about it """Yawn" some yogis may fantasize that this state is the ultimate level, but I think it is that they either want the 'goal' to be attainable, or they want to feel that because they can do this, that they have reached an end. I find it just one more state of awareness.

I'm not so sure about that, Sivason...

Yes, "The Clear Light of the Mind," does seem sort of dull on its face, but that may only be because of how much is left out of its description.

Instead of thinking of reducing/abandoning ego as the ultimate level, period, perhaps you might think of it as the ultimate level that our human consciousness -- as currently "programmed" -- can understand. The yogis may have that Clear Light etc. as a goal not for the sake of reaching it, but for the sake of being able to reach it. Perhaps they sense that in the process of learning to reach that goal, they also learn to step beyond that ultimate level of human experience, to the true transcendental experience that comes with a final unification of all the parts of their mind and -- yes, I know they hate this word -- their soul.

That unification, in non-religious terms, could simply be exposure of your awareness to the full expanse of your unconscious, and of course whatever else might be "swirling in that sea." That to me doesn't seem very dull at all. Dangerous, overwhelming, and spiritually transforming, maybe, but certainly not dull.

So next time you're in your white room (mine's a gray mist, BTW, but to each his own, I suppose), instead of forming a body, or doing anything remotely anthropomorphic, consider doing the opposite: build a unique metaphor that might encourage that "white" to release its secrets and allow you to insert your awareness into the complete being that is You. Don't worry about creating. Instead, become creation. I would bet that it is not very dull at all.

I know that all sounds a little hokey, but think about this -- in the Matrix, that white room wasn't just a white room. It was a "supply room," offering up whatever the characters needed to know or have for their various (and extremely hokey) adventures. The white room was in a sense the "unconscious" of the Matrix, and our heroes were able to tap its resources at will -- without being bored! Indeed, the whole "Neo seeing the code" bit at the end could stand as a metaphor for a transcendent dive into the sea of his unconscious (at least in the first movie, before it all went south). Damn, that's deep... Hey, maybe the Wachowsky Bros were trying to tell us something important after all, and really weren't just a couple of over-amped comic book fan-boys channeling Philip K. Dick to make a cool fists-of-fury movie ... Nah!

Now the real answer to Ctharlhie's question, I think, would be: achieving this in a dream (literally after a dream, I suppose, or after death, if you're a sleep yogi) would likely make that "perfect" dream control and navigation a snap but, having achieved this ultimate goal, and stood on the steps of real transcendence, why bother with the dream?

Okay. It's 2 am, I'm tired, and this is getting weird.

Wtf is a Yogi?

*two seconds later*

Oh. Okay.

Why does everyone talk about this stuff like it's a big deal? You'll just confuse people into thinking it's hard.



/me wonders if anyone saw what he did there...

^^ For me it's not so much a big deal as an easy reference for context's sake.

The Dream and Sleep yogis have spent centuries accumulating a handy set of terms for things that otherwise might not have them. So, if I wind up in a conversation with Sivason -- who is well versed in this stuff -- it is easier to reference the yogis, and everything Sivason immediately draws from that reference, rather than root around for words and pictures to otherwise state my case.

In all honesty, I'm not much of a fan of the whole yoga thing, and all its associated doctrine and tenets -- sorry Sivason! Indeed, it turns out I was practicing dream and sleep yoga for years before I ever even stumbled into the Tibetans and their terms. That these guys were doing it all along was both encouraging and very handy for turning my thoughts into words someone might understand. Although Ctharlhie's Sea metaphor worked okay, too...

Now that I think of it, the basis of what the dream and sleep yogis are doing is a big deal. Big enough for them to have attached a religion to it, I suppose. Some of it is pretty hard, too, though none of that has much to do with LD'ing, I think.

So I hope you'll bear with us ( for what it's worth, I do try to avoid the terms as much as possible, mostly because I'm probably misusing them half the time anyway)

It's fine.

I'm finding out much the same thing, myself; I just wonder why people claim some things are so difficult. Sure, everyone's path might take a bit of traveling, but you're fine if you don't stray too much. It also helps if you can manage to hitch a ride.

But that's neither here nor there. Just an implicitly interesting parallel between the former discussion and the current...

As for the clear light being the 'ultimate' I'd like to think there's no 'end' in this crazy world of lucid dreaming we know and love.

Here we go. I call this trick "White Room" dreams. (The background can actually be grey sometimes) I get to the state of egoless trancendence, and then I pull back just enough to start to remember my own ego and self. I create a dream body to my liking and work on stablizing it. At this point no scenery exists except for my body. You can then, free from DCs and such, begin to create any scene you want. The background only fills in as you wish, so it can be you and a table, or you and a cottage that is floating in a feild of white.
Here is how this creates stunning and amazing dream control,,, you only bring a tiny portion of your ego and sub-concious mind back, so you are free from the distractions normal LDs have.

This is pretty awesome and it's funny that when I first learned of lucid dreaming I wanted to go into the 'construct' from the matrix and spawn things in it, unaware of the metaphysical implications of existing in a void unified with your unconscious.
But like Sageous I think you might be discounting the experience a somewhat lightly.

Indeed, the whole "Neo seeing the code" bit at the end could stand as a metaphor for a transcendent dive into the sea of his unconscious (at least in the first movie, before it all went south). Damn, that's deep... Hey, maybe the Wachowsky Bros were trying to tell us something important after all, and really weren't just a couple of over-amped comic book fan-boys channeling Philip K. Dick to make a cool fists-of-fury movie ... Nah!

I did, and still do, get hair standing on the back of my neck when I first saw the scene in which Neo realises he is 'The One' and sees the matrix clearly for the first time, before I had any idea of the Buddhist/Taoist subtext.

I'm finding out much the same thing, myself; I just wonder why people claim some things are so difficult. Sure, everyone's path might take a bit of traveling, but you're fine if you don't stray too much. It also helps if you can manage to hitch a ride.

It would defeat the purposes of drawing up a complex and prescriptive set of doctrines dating from thousands of years ago, only to say that goals are ultimately easy and for everyone to find their own way.

I just remembered something really quite interesting. In my first lucid dream, at the instant of attaining lucidity I suddenly found myself hanging in a white void without a dream body, and this was before I read anything about dream yoga.

Does this mean that the results of dream yoga don't simply arise from expectation from the teaching and have a basis in some underlying mechanism of lucidity, is the 'base reality' of tibetan buddhism simply a state of consciousness where one is inherently connected with the unconscious, past the egoic duality?