Thread: The Nature of Dream Control

I've got a few bits to throw in..
"everything in your dreams requires your attention" :I think it would be truer to say that everything you perceive requires your perception. It may be true that for an individual, when they're no longer aware of something (volentarily or not) it stops existing for them but you don't really know if everything in your dreams are to do with you. I'm not saying they're not but there's other theories too.. ie, foreign entities like in "the art of dreaming" (carlos casteneda). For those who don't know it, the basis is that other aware entities exist and to be aware of them and interact with them you have to be in the same reality as them. they can come into yours or vice versa but if you ignore them, you're affectivly taking yourself out of that reality and so they won't exist for you but conversely, if you fix yourself in that reality with all your awareness, they are as real as anything reality. That's a bit of a loose explanation but it's a possiblility not to be overlooked and ignored.
also, it's possible that dream elements are preformed and so do exist "outside the door": things happen in your dreams that you're not aware are going to happen and they're not always random or there'd be no sense whatsoever so the subconcious (or whatever does it) must be working it all out beforehand and preforming it in some way. Maybe.

"The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on"
This certainly seems to be true in some respects but there's some other things to it: have you noticed what happens if you stop and try and keep your focused attention on whatever's there? for me, it tends to change and can change into something completely different or unrelated or into nothing at all. it seems that the awareness is something that finds it harder to focus on one thing than on something that changes and seeing more detail in the object of attention and less in things around it is a change of attention and not nessecarily making your attention/awareness more powerful or stronger.

strong emotions
personally, I've found that emotions can be controlled by attention. I've discovered ways of placing my attention on certain emotions and they instantly are there (not thinking of happy thought but actually locating that feeling) so it is possible and I use it sometimes when my natural emotions are doing something I don't want but I've also discovered that what makes other emotions good or bad is the thoughts associated with them - I learnt a way to shut off thoughts and so the emotions are now all simply meaningless feelings, none any better than another. I'm not really sure how usefull it is, but it's interesting. The other thing to mention is that changing emotions is one thing and making emotions stronger is another - that requires frequent practice, like exercising your muscles.

good posts, by the way - and I'm not poopoooing any of it, just adding my mustard.

Originally Posted by jarrick

I'm not saying they're not but there's other theories too.. ie, foreign entities like in "the art of dreaming" (carlos casteneda)

Those would be the exception to the rule, as well as any form of shared dreaming. Learning to recognize and use your own elements should make it easier to recognize any foreign elements.

Originally Posted by jarrick

"The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on"
have you noticed what happens if you stop and try and keep your focused attention on whatever's there? for me, it tends to change and can change into something completely different or unrelated or into nothing at all.

That's what I based the second rule on. The act of focusing your attention is the main creative force in dreams. It's just not always so focused and directed, so it's effects are not always so obvious.

But those changes are not unrelated, they follow schemata or archetypal models. These elements of change seem random, but they can be classed together because they have some relation to the object you are focused on. Some things or concepts can have thousands of related associations that may seem random, but they all have the root element in common.

Most of the time I'm unable to choose which of these associations will rear it's head, but I do feel that I'm able to narrow the choices somewhat.

Just try it. You'll see that the changes that come from focusing on a teddy bear are quite different than those that come from focusing on a severed head. Even if you can't predict the exact change, you can still have a pretty good idea of what to expect. Knowing what to pay attention to and what to ignore, and not getting distracted by every shiny object can go a long way in providing dream control.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Just try it. You'll see that the changes that come from focusing on a teddy bear are quite different than those that come from focusing on a severed head. Even if you can't predict the exact change, you can still have a pretty good idea of what to expect. Knowing what to pay attention to and what to ignore, and not getting distracted by every shiny object can go a long way in providing dream control.

I'll give that a go - it never occured to me they maybe related. it could be possible to map every link between memories in the brain but that would take forever - but i wonder if concentrating on an object and letting it change into it's associated items would strengthen your memory connnections.

Originally Posted by jarrick

-but i wonder if concentrating on an object and letting it change into it's associated items would strengthen your memory connnections.

Most likely. In a neural networking model, every time one of these paths gets used, it gains what they call "weight". The more weight these pathways have, the more likely they are to get used.

But the true measure of the strength of a connection is the strength of the emotions you were experiencing when those memories were formed. THanks to the part of the brain called the hippocampus, which affects memory, learning and emotion, stronger memories are formed in response to strong emotions.

These emotionally charged memories being the strongest, surface first in dreams. I need to revise the third rule to reflect that.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

OK, I finally watched The Secret. I hadn't before now because I felt I knew what it was about, but I never realized how close it is to my dream theory. A lot of it echoes what I've been trying to say. They beat me to the punch!

Still, I'd like to scratch a little deeper than that, or at least approach it from another angle. In this case dreaming.

Heya phonix here from the secret thread. Good article simlar to the law of attraction, but can't ou see that its bascally saying to use the law of attraction but in a more dreaming way. However, you gave me an idea and I must say thank you for this. Emotions are stronger in a dream I thought I was the only one who noticed that so I appald you on that

I'm going to use lucid dreaming to stimulate the feelings of having it now because, they are more powerful and I can remember how I felt after a lucid dream.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Good day

Jarrick - I think it would be truer to say that everything you perceive requires your perception.

Basically, wtf? That's like saying everything you see requires your sight. It's just basically redundant and it has nothing to do with attention anyway. It's a totally different thing, so you can't say that attention thing is wrong and the perception thing is right, it's like saying algebra is wrong because calculus is right.

Also yeah as you make connections more and more you make them stronger, it's how you learn that a piano is a piano and your dog is your dog. You hear those words more around the object so you realise that it must be a piano. etc.

As for figuring out all the connections, I think that would be impossible; too many connections, too many things. Plus you make new connections every day so it would be impossible to keep up.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

But those changes are not unrelated, they follow schemata or archetypal models. These elements of change seem random, but they can be classed together because they have some relation to the object you are focused on. Some things or concepts can have thousands of related associations that may seem random, but they all have the root element in common.

I had a dream last night that I think illustrates this wonderfully. I was in a lucid dream involving being on vacation with my family. I had just been flying up and grabbing the power lines to illustrate to the family DCs that I can't die in a dream. I briefly felt fear as an uncomfortable sharp prickling pain ran through my body. However I easily banished the sensation. When I looked up I noticed the clouds. They were fluffy and the sky was a bright blue. But as I watched they turned gray and orange, the colors that precede a tornado in my dreams. I instantly became afraid for my family. I realized my fear could cause the tornado to materialize. So I glanced at some trees as I tried to calm myself. I noticed a weird shadow. It was shaped like a Tyranasasaurus Rex! The image of my family fleeing before it flashed briefly in my mind. I realized I was in an emotional loop. So I closed my eyes, took a deep breath, and instead became happy and excited about levitating my dad.

I suspect that this list of emotions, sensations, and things are all neurally linked in my brain. Like playing that game where you start with a random word and then make random associations..

Originally Posted by The Cusp

That's quite the inconsistency we have here, in that semi-lucids seem to offer better control than full lucids. Since it's awareness of being in a dream that lends you control, it would be reasonable to assume that the better the awareness, the better the control. That just doesn't seem to be the case.

My only explanation is that we (myself included) are scatter brained victims of the digital age. Technology has conditioned us to the point where we can barely focus on anything for any length of time.

That and our modern culture has no place for the ancient traditions of meditation and disciplines of the mind. The majority of religions have time tested methods and techniques to school and train the mind.

To counteract this seeming lack of control, I would advise some form of meditation of mental training. I'd recommend reading Carlos Castaneda's books, as they deal predominantly with attention. But any type of meditative practice would be sure to help.

Lucidity does not necessarily mean control. Lots of people have no control in their LDs and I know that I can do some amazing stuff while non-lucid. I suspect this discrepancy arises because when you're "semi-lucid", whatever that may mean, you probably naturally control the environment whereas you overthink when you're fully lucid.

Originally Posted by phonix

Heya phonix here from the secret thread. Good article simlar to the law of attraction, but can't ou see that its bascally saying to use the law of attraction but in a more dreaming way.

Dumbass, "can't ou see" that he's looking for something much deeper, something that explains your stupid law of attraction?

I agree with your last comment valwen but settle down a bit. And If you had read the thread you would know what we mean by semi-lucid.

Originally Posted by tommo

Basically, wtf? That's like saying everything you see requires your sight. It's just basically redundant and it has nothing to do with attention anyway. It's a totally different thing, so you can't say that attention thing is wrong and the perception thing is right, it's like saying algebra is wrong because calculus is right.

I don't follow what you're trying to say at all. In a dream you're not using your real eyes to see.

We know through science that matter exists both as a wave form and as a singularity (particles). Recent advances in quantum mechanics tell us the act of observing these wave forms is what collapses them into singularities. This would suggest there is something "magical" about the act of perception.

Originally Posted by tommo

Jarrick - I think it would be truer to say that everything you perceive requires your perception.

Basically, wtf? That's like saying everything you see requires your sight. It's just basically redundant and it has nothing to do with attention anyway. It's a totally different thing, so you can't say that attention thing is wrong and the perception thing is right, it's like saying algebra is wrong because calculus is right.

what i meant by that is that when the cusp said "everything in your dreams requires your attention" is basicly the same as saying that everything you perceive requires your perception. after all, your attention is just the focus point (to whatever degree) of perception. one is just a simplified version of the other but like the cusp said, it is blindingly obvious. But maybe we've got different interpretations of what the words mean for us.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

That's quite the inconsistency we have here, in that semi-lucids seem to offer better control than full lucids. Since it's awareness of being in a dream that lends you control, it would be reasonable to assume that the better the awareness, the better the control. That just doesn't seem to be the case.

I wonder if detatchment has anything to do with this. I find that the more lucid I am, the more i'm "in my body" and the more real everything seems so maybe it's not so easy to control as you need more convincing that it's not real whereas when you're just aware you're dreaming, you're more detatched and can look at it from from an outside perspective - like in real life. dunno..
do you find that you percieve more (emotions, objects, sences etc..) when you're fully lucid or when you're semi-lucid? I know that in some scary dreams I'll have an abundance of fear and wake up thinking it was really vivid but the total of peception may have been less than that of a fully lucid dream where I'm aware of a much wider spectrum of things and if that's the case then controlling it all might be harder simply because you have to so more imagining. it would be like trying to play a modern pc game with a crappy graphics card.

I definitely perceive more when I'm fully lucid.

Originally Posted by jarrick

do you find that you percieve more (emotions, objects, sences etc..) when you're fully lucid or when you're semi-lucid?

I don't think I perceive more in one state or the other, my perception is just distributed differently in a full lucid than it is in a semi lucid. In a semi lucid, I take in more of the dream. In a full lucid, I have more of an inward focus while I think about the implications of what I'm doing. I still have the same sum total of perception, but a greater portion of it is directed inwards during full lucidity.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I don't think I perceive more in one state or the other, my perception is just distributed differently in a full lucid than it is in a semi lucid. In a semi lucid, I take in more of the dream. In a full lucid, I have more of an inward focus while I think about the implications of what I'm doing. I still have the same sum total of perception, but a greater portion of it is directed inwards during full lucidity.

So you believe that at all times we are "maxing out" our perception, just that the distribution is different?

I'd say, not at all times - there are times when you're bearly aware - though it could be that your subconcious is "maxed out" the whole time but our concious awareness is more variable (but that's just a wild guess). But when you're lucid or semi lucid, your concious mind could well be maxed out but on different things (like the cusp just said) but what I'm thinking is maybe the complexity of control is different; when you're semi-lucid, it's like you're sitting in the directors chair and so it's a lot easier to control as your subconcious is doing a lot of the leg-work but when you're fully lucid, the concious mind has to do everything and that's a lot of multi-tasking.
When I'm fully lucid, I find it easier to make something appear if i will it into existance out of sight and then look round to see it or go into a room and it's there whereas making it appear infront of me or in my hands is a lot more effort so maybe I'm employing the subconcious more when i make it appear off-stage.

Originally Posted by anomanderis

So you believe that at all times we are "maxing out" our perception, just that the distribution is different?

I can't really say for sure at the moment, I need to experiment with that more. Yet another thing to add to my research list.

Ok I think we just have a different meaning for the word perception. And Cusp I wasn't saying the sight thing as any point just an analogy.

I think that awareness part is true; that it takes more of your attention in a full lucid because your focusing more on everything.
Cusp, you said that 'I don't think I perceive more in one state or the other, my perception is just distributed differently in a full lucid than it is in a semi lucid.'
That kind of contradicts the rule that everything you dream requires your attention. If you aren't focusing on something as much it isn't going to be as detailed. I don't know if that made sense, tired again lol.

So basically, in a semi-lucid everything is not as real, right?
In a full-lucid everything is more real thus taking more attention to keep everything the same. Because your taking into account feelings, senses, etc.
Although in a semi-lucid it's more attention from your sub-conscious than it is from your conscious. Ok I just realised we covered that already.

I agree with the nightmare thing. They are always more real than dreams with less strong emotions. Dreams where I fall in love or something are even more memorable than nightmares though I think.

Anyway sorry for the rambling, gotta get on here earlier so I can make sense.

Originally Posted by tommo

So basically, in a semi-lucid everything is not as real, right?

No, just the opposite. Full lucidity by definition requires more focus on your thoughts, most notably the "Holy crap, I'm lucid!" thought. This leaves less attention to sustain your surroundings.

In a semi-lucid, more attention is focused on interacting with the dream, which makes it more real.

I just realized a little something my brother and I do could provide a practical engineering project using those rules that anyone reading this could help me with. The main problem with understanding these rules in action is that they can be pretty abstract. Here we will try to create something very small and simple, with a very clear and simple intent. Plus we'll limit ourselves to using only words to accomplish it.

Background
Now my family has a bit of a history for bullshitting. My brother and I like to make up interesting little factoids that are complete fabrications, and tell it to someone. First of all, it's funny getting someone to believe something stupid, but it's even better when they repeat it and get called for being so completely wrong.

My brother inadvertently set a new standard when one of his bullshit fabrications caught on and spread. He actually had something he made up on the spur of the moment repeated to him by someone he didn't know in a completely different city from where he first told it.

I'm sure every one of you has heard the rumor about the Don't worry be happy guy committing suicide, or the one about Richard Geir and the gerbil. Those may sound stupid and immature, but what those simple rumors accomplished was awe inspiring. They spread around the globe like an infectious disease with a speed that rivaled the internet. Just think of how many perverted gerbil conversations you've had to suffer through as a result of that one.

Just a handful of words can have far reaching consequences. In that light, it's easy to see where the classical portrayal of wizards and scorcerors performing acts of magic by reciting magic words or incantations might have come from.


Applying the Rules
1. Every thing requires your attention to exist
-This is a brilliant example of the first rule in action. Make no mistake about it, we are creating something from nothing here, and the goal is to keep it alive through attention. A lot of people have trouble understanding how this works, and I hope these rumors will clarify things.

These rumors sustain themselves through the attention people give them. If it's a lame rumor that nobody cares about, it will soon be forgotten and cease to exist. But if the rumor is good, it takes on a life of it's own, it becomes something quite real and almost tangible.

The person sustaining the existence of these rumors needn't consciously focused on them to keep them going. They reside somewhere in the mind, but remain active. This is a great analogy of how we carry over residual stuff from waking life that influences our dreams.

2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.
-This rule provides the building blocks for creation. There are maybe three elements tops in these rumors. They extremely simple. But the right combination of a very few element creates an irresistible hook.

Just look in the Dream Gallery section of this forum (http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...splay.php?f=60), and you'll see my dream entitled "Mormon Sex Cult" has over 5000 views. Not to brag, but that blows away any other dream posted there by leaps and bounds. Why? It's the right combination of elements. Of course sex is always a good one, but combined with Mormon and Cult, it's even more alluring.

3. Emotions strengthen memory and flavor those memories accordingly. (Still trying to rework that rule to better summarize what's happening. I'm not happy with that rendition, but it will do for now)
-Emotions can be considered the power source for this project, which keep the rumor going. Ideally we want something that people are strongly polarized either for or against. Something that provides a strong sense of shock or surprise. Something deliciously captivating.



I've been trying to write this for two weeks now. I'm not happy with how it turned out, but I still think it gets the point across, so I'm just going to post it and move on.

Ideally I want a rumor that will rival those two I mentioned, that will spread across the globe and get back to my brother so I can gloat. We could also do it on a smaller scale withing the DV community. I was going to suggest something about Asher, but he's been quick to wield the ban axe these days, and I don't want to get booted just yet. I'm just using him as an example.

They way these rumor implant and sustain themselves in the back of your mind is the kind of thing you want to accomplish with the desire for lucid dreaming. You want to turn it into something real that takes on a life of it's own. A site like this helps amplify that reality due to the number of people in agreement on lucid dreaming.

cusp... probably the most intersting thread i have ever read on my entire time on dream views.

My mind, before reading this has been going to and fro on the subject of awareness and schemas and how these affect our levels of lucidty and control.

After reading the bible of lucid dreaming "exploring the world of lucid dreaming" by Laberge, and more importantly his theories on schemas, i was confused as to how we could create such scenes depending on our own individual life experiences, but after reading your post about the fact that nothing exits if we are not aware of it (nice example of Schrödinger's cat) would account for the fact i have been very aware that when i try to see a larger view in my lucid dreams as such instead of things i am aware of i tend to lose lucidty.

i am now beginning to find a way of making dreamscaping a much easier task. I came accross a thread a few months ago where a method of lucid dream induction was described in realtion to mediation and "mental mapping" whereby we walk into a room, and as we exit it we reconstruct as much of the room as possible. I think that by putting this into better practice, our awareness in dreams can be greatly increased through increased awareness.

you post has really excited me again about lucid dreaming.

cheers

I think the 3rd part is spot on, no need to change it.

That post about rumours reminds me of this joke kinda thing I made up one day and told my brother in like grade one or prep or something and it spread around the whole school and this random grade 6'er told it to me. Then I'm like hey I made that up, and he's like BS etc etc. No one ever believes you lol!
I also started that 'Hey (insert name, say jack) jack, jack JACK JACK!!!! hey JACK.' "WHAT!?!?" "nothing"
LOL although I'm sure other people thought of that before because I've heard almost EVERYONE say it. But I said that in like grade 2 or something just to annoy my mum. Probably just one of those 'inventing an existing thing' things.

BTW I'd never heard of richard gere thing but had heard of the gerbil thing and never heard of the Bobby Mcferrin thing either, had to look it up. I thought Bob Marley wrote that song! lol

It would be funny if LD'ing was just a rumour and we all really just dreamed that we were having an LD.

Oh yeh and I don't know if it was this forum or the other one I go on, but the mods all played a prank where they pretended the forums had been hijacked and none of their accounts worked lol. Panic was spread. It all started from one little joke and then someone took it seriously and other people saw that post and posted and then people saw their posts etc. So the mods decided to make it 'real'.

EDIT: Oh and I was thinking....
Since emotions make strong connection in your brain....
I've realised that whenever I think about sex before sleeping I seem to have a dream about sex, the strong emotions are obviously exacerbated by horniness. So if you could have the same strong emotions about Ld'ing then you could have an LD every night. The problem is there is no natural chemical that makes you excited about an LD. So I'm thinking, somehow you could get the connections crossed between horniness and Ld'ing. Just like people with weird sex obsessions get the wires crossed between say, shoving gerbils up their ass and sexual pleasure (to keep on topic) HAHA