Thread: Keeping a dream journal when you don't actually recall your dreams

I'm glad you tried my suggestion. I've never used that for recall (just for increasing lucidity), but that's a great use for it.

I would suggest writing down your feeling state upon waking - if there is any remnant of it. Whether it's a fleeting unexplainable sadness, or even just a neutral feeling. I would also write down any fragments, even if it's just a sense of a color.

Keep trying, and keep a very consistent sleep schedule. Don't give up!

Originally Posted by Hilary

I'm glad you tried my suggestion. I've never used that for recall (just for increasing lucidity), but that's a great use for it.

I would suggest writing down your feeling state upon waking - if there is any remnant of it. Whether it's a fleeting unexplainable sadness, or even just a neutral feeling. I would also write down any fragments, even if it's just a sense of a color.

Keep trying, and keep a very consistent sleep schedule. Don't give up!

Thanks, Hilary! Yes, I keep on reminding myself that I started from the same place before, and within a month or two, I had quite good recall. Unfortunately, I stopped paying attention, and now I have to start from scratch again. But at least I do know that it's possible for me.

Yes, that thing about mood and feelings when you wake up is very interesting. When my recall was better, sometimes I found myself waking up with the residues of a "bad" dream still on me. But I found if I could remember the dream, the "bad" feelings weren't so bad, because I could see where they were coming from and deal with them. With no recall of the dream, and just the feelings, it's a lot harder.

You said "keep a consistent sleep schedule." Well, that's a bit of problem. My sleep patterns have improved a lot of the years, but from a very low base. I used to have shocking insomnia. These days I have a much more healthy lifestyle, yoga, no alcohol, lots of exercise. It helps, but I'm still just generally not a good sleeper. I've improved from appalling, absolutely debilitating insomnia to just slightly disturbed, irregular sleep.

The more data collected the better, beyond a record of just your dreams, additionally recorded data, you can (and should) also record your: sleep times, sleep quality, distractions, level of health, techniques used, sleep environment, hormonal cycles, diet, sleeping arrangements (partner/alone, etc.), and any other relevant factors. You said, " much more healthy lifestyle, yoga, no alcohol, lots of exercise." Put that in there too.

Also, Before sleep, You can use your journal to note any dream goals or intentions for the coming night.
Regularly assess your dream journal for recurring patterns, clues to any lucidity triggers (either from within the dream or external factors), and to become familiar with the nature of your dreams. These assessments are a time to categorize and update your list of dream signs, improve your familiarity with the dream world, search for recurring patterns in your sleep, assess the effectiveness of different techniques, or be creatively inspired by your dreams.

Originally Posted by WanderAbout

You said "keep a consistent sleep schedule." Well, that's a bit of problem. My sleep patterns have improved a lot of the years, but from a very low base. I used to have shocking insomnia. These days I have a much more healthy lifestyle, yoga, no alcohol, lots of exercise. It helps, but I'm still just generally not a good sleeper. I've improved from appalling, absolutely debilitating insomnia to just slightly disturbed, irregular sleep.

Here's a podcast video that Fryingman shared a week or so ago. I found it very insightful. You might want to check it out. It's all about how to leverage light, temperature, exercise, caffeine, supplements, and food to improve your sleep cycle.

#1 take away: run outside first thing when you wake up and soak in 5 minutes of early morning sunshine. Don't stare at the sun, though.

Woo-hoo! Okay, I'm beginning to be able to recall visual images and story snippets! Last night, there was something about a party in a lunatic asylum, where I was the guest of honor. I remember going down the stairs to where the party was going to be and hamming it up, acting crazy to amuse and entertain everyone there. There was a lot of irony to it, it was like we'd all been judged to be crazy, but as a group we knew that WE were sane, and it was everyone else who wasn't. And it was all somewhere near Papua, an island I've visited a few times and about which I'm reading at the moment.

I used the VA recorder. It's a great help. The trouble with writing is ... laziness. Sleepiness. I just don't FEEL like waking up and writing it down. I somehow convince myself that no, I'll remember without doing that, so lets just drift off back to sleep. And then it's gone. The barrier is much lower if all I have to do is grab the phone and talk into it.

I should add that this "recall breakthrough" has happened just when I've had a shocking cold, blocked, fever, low energy, brain like a bowl of pea soup.

Hilary, regarding light ... yeah, a few times a week, I wake up before sunrise and walk a few miles to a pretty park near my place to journal and do some study activities as the sun comes up. I live in the tropics, the first hour after sunrise is when the light is soft and gentle. A big Asian city: it's also the time when the streets are still peaceful. On days when I can't do that, at least I sit outside on my balcony for an hour or so, doing some study before yoga. No-one is going to take away my first cup of extremely strong Indonesian coffee in the morning, that's non-negotiable. But it's usually the only coffee I have all day.

Still persisting, but it's very slow progress. This morning I woke up, convinced I hadn't remembered any dreams at all. I looked at my voice recorder, and could see that there was a fifteen second recording from about 3am. I wonder what that was? I played it back and heard my voice saying: "There are eleven types of explorers, and I am the twelfth type." Then a pause, and a cry of anguish: "It was all so clear in my head! And as soon as I try to find words to express it, it's gone!"

The funny thing was that by the morning, not only did I not remember the dream at all, but I didn't even remember waking up and recording the entry.

Originally Posted by WanderAbout

Still persisting, but it's very slow progress. This morning I woke up, convinced I hadn't remembered any dreams at all. I looked at my voice recorder, and could see that there was a fifteen second recording from about 3am. I wonder what that was? I played it back and heard my voice saying: "There are eleven types of explorers, and I am the twelfth type." Then a pause, and a cry of anguish: "It was all so clear in my head! And as soon as I try to find words to express it, it's gone!"

The funny thing was that by the morning, not only did I not remember the dream at all, but I didn't even remember waking up and recording the entry.

That's a good start.
Yes, it is always a very progress. I have still have trouble with remember dreams at times. Even though I have been doing a while.. I laughed when I read that.. That sounds like something like I have that happen to me before.. It is possible to wake up multiple times and not remember it.

Do you have a history of sleepwalking or REM Sleep Behavior Disorder?

Don't give up!!

Originally Posted by Lang

That's a good start.
Yes, it is always a very progress. I have still have trouble with remember dreams at times. Even though I have been doing a while.. I laughed when I read that.. That sounds like something like I have that happen to me before.. It is possible to wake up multiple times and not remember it.

Do you have a history of sleepwalking or REM Sleep Behavior Disorder?

Don't give up!!

Thanks, Lang! No, no sleepwalking or any obvious REM Sleep Behavior Disorder! I'm not sure how accurate the Samsung Smartwatch sleep assessment function is, but it seems to think mine seems okay -- sometimes slightly less REM that is considered ideal, but still more or less normal.

I do find it important to try to recall the dream while my eyes are still shut, to turn it over in my mind and try to find words for it. If I open my eyes before I've done that, the whole thing melts away in an instant.

Well, to answer my own question about how to keep a dream journal when you aren't recalling much ...

One thing I've been doing is reading a few books on the subject, not just lucid dreaming, but dreaming more generally. I journal a bit in the evening, just before going to sleep, writing a few notes about what I've been reading. It gives me something to write about and keeps the idea alive in my mind. When I read people like Waggoner, it's quite inspiring, it makes me WANT to remember. In the mornings, if I don't have much to report, I write frankly about how I feel about that -- sometimes disappointed, sometimes kicking myself a bit for my lack of dream talent -- but then I remind myself that I have managed to stick at things like meditation and yoga practice, even when they seemed difficult at the beginning, and I did make progress. Sort of a self pep talk. Since I use the I Ching a lot, I often cast the coins to see what it says about my journey with dreams. I write down the reading in the journal. Yesterday, I received a great line:

A melon covered with willow leaves. Hidden lines. Then it drops down to one from heaven.

It refers to something, well, hidden, that reveals itself in time, when it's ready, and there's nothing you can do to force it.

I am having this weird thing where I wake up with certain French phrases going through my head. I'm studying French fairly intensively, so perhaps that's not so strange. Still, why those particular phrases? So, I just note them down.

I did have quite a dramatic dream last night, involving visiting a rich Indian expat family's apartment in Jakarta, when the family was out and there was only a baby sitter there. After talking very briefly, we ended up having sex. Dream sex is kind of weird, or at least it was last night. I'm not even sure it involved penetration, but lots of closeness and touching. The whole thing felt like post-sex warmth with a lover you're very close to, without really having sex first. In the middle of this, the Indian housewife returned and walked in and saw us wrapped around each other, but she just smiled indulgently. And then we had a long, involved discussion about frozen raspberries.

I find that doing day journaling can really help. For one thing, it puts you into the mindset of paying attention to your waking experiences, so that you can later recall them and record them.
Check out my articles linked in my signature on these topics (Unified Theory [pay attention to, reflect on, and practice recalling your experiences, and dream recall tips). For another it's a great exercise of the memory of experience (doing abstract memory puzzles I think is less useful for training dream recall). For another, it gives you more time in stimulating and training the recall pathways in the brain.

Dream memories can be very fragile, I know, I'm experiencing the same thing now as well. It can really help to train yourself to REMAIN COMPLETELY STILL after waking, and to recall dreams. I try to very quickly assign a very short phrase combined with a single image from the dream/scenes which I want to record, run through this list of key words/phrases/images a few times, only then reaching for the recorder/pen/paper. I think the voice recorder captures the most detail and is the most efficient (time-wise) and least disruptive to sleep (once you turn it on you can keep your eyes closed and remain in the dark -- if you use a voice-activated recorder you can even do it without moving!).

In time it gets easier to recall dreams. After a couple years of voice recording during wakings, I started just keeping a mental list of dreams, and found that many would survive until the morning even across multiple wakings. But this takes time, and perhaps risks insomnia for those who are susceptible to it (like I am as well).

I think the most beneficial practices for recall are: 1) live life paying purposeful attention to all experience [waking and dreaming], with the express intent to remember it later; 2) set intent to notice all your waking and recall and record dreams; 3) reach for dream recall on EVERY waking (it helps to ask yourself, "what was I just dreaming about?"); 4) give yourself enough time, it can take a few minutes sometimes for the memories to come. If you're somewhat familiar with your dream signs/themes, and nothing comes, then do free association on different themes and see if anything "clicks".

I totally understand the "I don't want to write this stuff down in the middle of the night," I'm the same way. But I think this can actually build up a block of dreaming, so try to at least scribble or record one word or phrase per waking. I've had early or middle of the night dreams come (at least partially) back to me with those key words.

Good luck! Consistency over time is the most important. Keep it up!

BTW, on the subject of the Andrew Huberman sleep optimization protocols: I find that my sleep seems to be better on the nights where I take his recommended sleep supplement stack. I seem to need 400mg L-Theanine instead of 200mg to avoid early wakings. I also add 500mg L-tryptophan. The Huberman stack includes: magnesium L-threonate, L-theanine, glycine, GABA. See his video for timing and dosage recommendations, and always start with small dosages and single supplements and build up slowly over time to larger dosages and combinations.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I find that doing day journaling can really help. For one thing, it puts you into the mindset of paying attention to your waking experiences, so that you can later recall them and record them.
Check out my articles linked in my signature on these topics (Unified Theory [pay attention to, reflect on, and practice recalling your experiences, and dream recall tips). For another it's a great exercise of the memory of experience (doing abstract memory puzzles I think is less useful for training dream recall). For another, it gives you more time in stimulating and training the recall pathways in the brain.

Dream memories can be very fragile, I know, I'm experiencing the same thing now as well. It can really help to train yourself to REMAIN COMPLETELY STILL after waking, and to recall dreams. I try to very quickly assign a very short phrase combined with a single image from the dream/scenes which I want to record, run through this list of key words/phrases/images a few times, only then reaching for the recorder/pen/paper. I think the voice recorder captures the most detail and is the most efficient (time-wise) and least disruptive to sleep (once you turn it on you can keep your eyes closed and remain in the dark -- if you use a voice-activated recorder you can even do it without moving!).

In time it gets easier to recall dreams. After a couple years of voice recording during wakings, I started just keeping a mental list of dreams, and found that many would survive until the morning even across multiple wakings. But this takes time, and perhaps risks insomnia for those who are susceptible to it (like I am as well).

I think the most beneficial practices for recall are: 1) live life paying purposeful attention to all experience [waking and dreaming], with the express intent to remember it later; 2) set intent to notice all your waking and recall and record dreams; 3) reach for dream recall on EVERY waking (it helps to ask yourself, "what was I just dreaming about?"); 4) give yourself enough time, it can take a few minutes sometimes for the memories to come. If you're somewhat familiar with your dream signs/themes, and nothing comes, then do free association on different themes and see if anything "clicks".

I totally understand the "I don't want to write this stuff down in the middle of the night," I'm the same way. But I think this can actually build up a block of dreaming, so try to at least scribble or record one word or phrase per waking. I've had early or middle of the night dreams come (at least partially) back to me with those key words.

Good luck! Consistency over time is the most important. Keep it up!

BTW, on the subject of the Andrew Huberman sleep optimization protocols: I find that my sleep seems to be better on the nights where I take his recommended sleep supplement stack. I seem to need 400mg L-Theanine instead of 200mg to avoid early wakings. I also add 500mg L-tryptophan. The Huberman stack includes: magnesium L-threonate, L-theanine, glycine, GABA. See his video for timing and dosage recommendations, and always start with small dosages and single supplements and build up slowly over time to larger dosages and combinations.

Well, I've had a daily journaling practice for a long time now. I've also been practicing a fairly simple Theravada meditation for decades, just sitting with a commitment to being aware of the breath for about half an hour every day. Funny, it certainly doesn't give you super powers. I've had friends ask me what benefits I get from doing the practice, and I always have to reply: "I don't know. I don't know what my life would be like if I hadn't done it." I still have at least my fair share of neuroses and so on. But yes, I do find I can be aware of my thoughts to some extent. Like, walking along, suddenly becoming aware that I've been imagining some interview for a job I never applied for 20 years ago, with an imaginary conversation with the interviewer. Haha. It is quite possible to think about something or to create a scenario in your head without being aware that you're doing it, it's just there in the background.

Thanks for your advice about keeping still on waking up. Yes, I've found that a sleep mask helps. You have to make a conscious decision to remove it and open your eyes, so you can wait until you've reflected a bit before doing it.

Since I posted my first post on this thread, my recall has got a fair bit better. Maybe every second night I can recall at least fragments of dreams. Although quite often I check my recorder in the morning and find that I recorded something in the night, and have no memory of doing so, or of the dream. A few times, there is just an incomprehensible mumble on the recorder, although it's clear that I am describing a dream.

I found a recording about being in the forest, with lots of violent events occurring around me, the other day. That was exciting. I'd been reading a book about the Yanamamo, the so-called "Fierce People," a very warlike group in the Amazon basin. I'd also been reading about dream incubation. As I went to sleep, I said I wanted to visit them in my dreams. And the next morning, I found that recording. So, I probably DID meet them in my dreams! I just don't remember it at all.

So, after a couple of weeks, I'm now recalling at least one and sometimes up to three dreams each night. My dreams seem to be getting longer and more interesting, with something approaching a narrative structure, rather than just isolated visual images - sometimes. I still wake up, look at my voice recorder, and see more recordings than I expect to find. When I listen, there are dreams, usually from earlier in the night, where I don't even remember waking up. Sometimes, the messages are pretty cryptic - What the hell was that all about? I usually record an intention just before going to sleep. At first, I just said something like I'll be open to any dreams, thoughts, images that come to me and I'll make a sincere attempt to record them. Now, I add something about asking the night-time me to be kind to the day-time me who will be listening tomorrow, to explain as fully and carefully as possible so that he can understand what the night-time me experienced.

I'm posting this update in the hope that it encourages anyone else who is having difficulty at the beginning. One of the good things about successfully recording some dreams is that I start becoming more confident that I'll remember more dreams. I'm not feeling anxious about it anymore.

Hehe. Not all the dreams are that flattering to my self-image. Last night, I made a clumsy pass at a woman that I'd grown to be quite friendly with, giving her a big, sloppy kiss on her cheek. She gave me a withering look, wiped her cheek, and pointed to her female friend, who was sitting with us, saying "You are aware that she's my partner, aren't you?" I shriveled and muttered some weak apology.

Lucidity seems still like a long way off. Actually, I'll do the work, but even if I just get good recall, I'm finding the process fun and interesting. I look forward to going to sleep with excitement!

Originally Posted by WanderAbout

Lucidity seems still like a long way off. Actually, I'll do the work, but even if I just get good recall, I'm finding the process fun and interesting. I look forward to going to sleep with excitement!

Hey, Congrats on your three dreams each night.

And yes, I can relate with some of those dreams too.