Thread: What do you dislike about the US?

^THIS!! I suspect a secret cadre behind the presidency who cajole and threaten and wheedle until the president is little more than a figurehead.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

They're not even really making movies to entertain people, just to rake in massive megabucks. Moviemaking is big business now. They don't care at all about artistic integrity or message or anything like that - just hand over fist profits. New ideas aren't profitable, neither is art. No corporation spending tens of millions of dollars on a single project is going to risk long shots like that - they want only the safest bets.

Also, independent moviemaking these days is massively expensive too. Most of the independent film studios are now backed by major studios. What passes for 'independent' these days is what used to be big-budget a decade or two ago. Long gone is the true spirit of independent low-budget filmmaking from the 60's and 70's.

That spirit can still exist, but unfortunately it's mostly only in basement studio productions from people who re totally amateur and can't get professional actors or cinematographers etc.

You have to admit though that Indie Film Makers have more creative freedom on the films that they want to write. Where as Hollywood is just focused on money like you said, and even the special effects on Indie Films are getting better ( maybe because their backed by major studios like you said also )

Music and video games are on a whole new level now because of the internet...gone are the days where you need a major record label to produce a album and keep creative control. Gone are the days where you need to thousand dollar studio equipment to make a quality album. GONE are the days where you need a 50 million dollar budget to produce a hit game. Indie games are now approaching mainstream quality. Take a look at this game..this is an Indie game.





Indie is the future. The ability to be creatively free AND make money is here. I'm currently composing music for a small indie game now to be relased for xbox live and windows 7 phone. I'll Post the game here when it's done.

I must admit I haven't seen a lot of indie films in recent years, but I've heard most of them are starting to fit into formulaic categories similar to standard Hollywood fare, but different categories of course.

But I do agree on music and video games. The same is also true for animation - that's one field where true low-budget independents can produce exactly what they want with no limitations and make it look totally professional. Now if only there were a way to make money doing that... (with animation I mean - video games and music do have good marketing and distribution options for indies).

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Initially, want to say that I die a little inside.

But, I tend to think that it really doesn't matter who we vote for. Who we vote for and who we get, after they've been elected, are often two different things. Call me disillusioned, but I feel like our elections are kind of like the Pepsi Challenge; sure, they may not taste exactly the same, but Coke and Pepsi really aren't all that different.

That would make sense if there wasn't any orange juice on the market.

Or tea....

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I must admit I haven't seen a lot of indie films in recent years, but I've heard most of them are starting to fit into formulaic categories similar to standard Hollywood fare, but different categories of course.

But I do agree on music and video games. The same is also true for animation - that's one field where true low-budget independents can produce exactly what they want with no limitations and make it look totally professional. Now if only there were a way to make money doing that... (with animation I mean - video games and music do have good marketing and distribution options for indies).

The same thing goes for animation also...the Internet is the medium, I'm pretty sure if there isn't already there will be an option to submit Indie animation films to netFlix. But there's so much more than netflix..think Digital download/distribution...Itunes, Youtube, Amazon, etc. Then you have to think there are already Internet marketing companies to get your brand or company noticed and heard. Yea it'll cost money and Developers will need a budget, but it'll be way cheaper than what the majors are doing. The Internet has truly connected everything and everyone.

It's cool to hear all these responses thanks you guys.

Originally Posted by Majestic

You have to admit though that Indie Film Makers have more creative freedom on the films that they want to write. Where as Hollywood is just focused on money like you said, and even the special effects on Indie Films are getting better ( maybe because their backed by major studios like you said also )

Music and video games are on a whole new level now because of the internet...gone are the days where you need a major record label to produce a album and keep creative control. Gone are the days where you need to thousand dollar studio equipment to make a quality album. GONE are the days where you need a 50 million dollar budget to produce a hit game. Indie games are now approaching mainstream quality. Take a look at this game..this is an Indie game.





Indie is the future. The ability to be creatively free AND make money is here. I'm currently composing music for a small indie game now to be relased for xbox live and windows 7 phone. I'll Post the game here when it's done.

Shut up and take my money!



I've been detached from current gaming for so long that I had no idea how ahead things were. :O

What I dislike the most about the US, is what I perceive as a disdain for solidarity. The complete lack of a social security net, the severely lacking healthcare, and the general mindset that if you're unlucky you somehow deserved it. Call me a socialist, but shouldn't one at least take care of one's own?

The media, for the most part. With a side of the superficial lifestyle that a lot of people seem to lead. It's tied in with the media.

But I'm not really sure whether the superficial lifestyle is any different in any other country.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Serious question: Do you actually know what the word "unregulated" means?

It's gotten to the point where I'm starting to actually question people's understandings of the words they use when they talk about subjects like this. How can one possibly and honestly say that the U.S. has a free market when the economic history of the U.S. is steeped in obvious interventionism? You don't even have to be a free market supporter in any sense to acknowledge the fact that the U.S. does not operate in a free market system. The only way one can possibly come to the opposite conclusion is if they ignore historical facts.

I think you should learn the definitions of the words you intend to use. You cannot honestly attack the free market system, for it isn't used in the U.S. You have to attack the blatant corporatism that is at the root of the problems you pointed out.

Before you gather the masses to riot, perhaps you should consider that I did not accuse of the Free Market of being unregulated. That would be like calling water wet. ... I accused Capitalism in America of being unregulated.

Capitalism is an economic system of production consisting of two sets of people; owner and worker, which promotes private ownership. It deals in production and profit, as compared to the Free Market, which is what determines the prices of goods and services based on supply and demand. Both Capitalism and Free Market, in historical terms, have been intertwined in their functionality, but they are NOT the same thing, and to accuse one of being unregulated (Capitalism) is not an accusation against the other (Free Market). The Free Market is supposed to be unregulated.

Capitalism, on the other hand, is very dangerous when it is unregulated, and that type of Capitalism has been eroding the middle class since the 80's. The majority of the economy's growth since the 80's has gone to help the rich get richer (specifically the top 10%, as Robert Reich, former Secretary of Labor stated in a recent Wall Street Journal article, September 13th 2011 ... I know cause I read it while at work today.). The progress on the other classes has only been evident because of the trickle down from the capstone of the income pyramid, and it is the capstone belongs to Executives and CEOs of major corporations, not to mention the finance-crazy jerkoffs who push economic bubbles to the breaking point as the bust swoops down and knocks over the middle class like dominoes. ... There is nothing wrong with supply and demand as the Free Market is made for,... but there is something wrong such things as... laying off masses of people for short term profits, rewarding people who plunder natural resource benefits and beauty from the countryside for their own commercial gains, and letting corporations grow so large that they become like governments all their own, pulling strings in media and politics in their facor with no real concern for social responsibility. As you mentioned, it is blatant corporism.

While in the Free Market it is normal for inefficient firms competing against competent ones to go under, if you add in unregulated Capitalism, the larger corporations possess so many resources and so much power that it is almost impossible to compete, and since it is purely financial, it is near impossible for firms to compete unless their central and most 'bled-for' goal is to maximize profits, thus only creating more 'blatant corporism'. ... And even in the redeeming case where two or large firms of the same industry are competing, and thus their products are becoming cheaper via competition, price fixing is really not that uncommon an event in our corporate world. ... This is what I mean by unregulated Capitalism 'tampering' with the Free Market.

Free market has existed in the US, but since the early 1980's, such is no longer true due to the said interventionism of policies such as Reaganomics.
If you are willing to present some examples of prior interventionism, I am all ears.

Also,... whatever here doesn't directly apply to the subject is for further explanation of my stance on point #2 of my love-hate relationship with America.

...
Tl;dr ... 'Unregulated Capitalism' bad. ... 'Free Market' good, but non-existed recently (within the past 30 years).

Originally Posted by MatthewOlson

I did not accuse of the Free Market of being unregulated. That would be like calling water wet. ... I accused Capitalism in America of being unregulated.

Capitalism is an economic system of production consisting of two sets of people; owner and worker, which promotes private ownership. It deals in production and profit, as compared to the Free Market, which is what determines the prices of goods and services based on supply and demand. Both Capitalism and Free Market, in historical terms, have been intertwined in their functionality, but they are NOT the same thing, and to accuse one of being unregulated (Capitalism) is not an accusation against the other (Free Market). The Free Market is supposed to be unregulated.

Capitalism, on the other hand, is very dangerous when it is unregulated, and that type of Capitalism has been eroding the middle class since the 80's. The majority of the economy's growth since the 80's has gone to help the rich get richer (specifically the top 10%, as Robert Reich, former Secretary of Labor stated in a recent Wall Street Journal article, September 13th 2011 ... I know cause I read it while at work today.). The progress on the other classes has only been evident because of the trickle down from the capstone of the income pyramid, and it is the capstone belongs to Executives and CEOs of major corporations, not to mention the finance-crazy jerkoffs who push economic bubbles to the breaking point as the bust swoops down and knocks over the middle class like dominoes. ... There is nothing wrong with supply and demand as the Free Market is made for,... but there is something wrong such things as... laying off masses of people for short term profits, rewarding people who plunder natural resource benefits and beauty from the countryside for their own commercial gains, and letting corporations grow so large that they become like governments all their own, pulling strings in media and politics in their facor with no real concern for social responsibility. As you mentioned, it is blatant corporism.

While in the Free Market it is normal for inefficient firms competing against competent ones to go under, if you add in unregulated Capitalism, the larger corporations possess so many resources and so much power that it is almost impossible to compete, and since it is purely financial, it is near impossible for firms to compete unless their central and most 'bled-for' goal is to maximize profits, thus only creating more 'blatant corporism'. ... And even in the redeeming case where two or large firms of the same industry are competing, and thus their products are becoming cheaper via competition, price fixing is really not that uncommon an event in our corporate world. ... This is what I mean by unregulated Capitalism 'tampering' with the Free Market.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Capitalism is essentially private property ownership. How can you speak of regulating capitalism? What would that even entail? Regulating who owns property? If you begin to regulate capitalism, you destroy the whole notion of capitalism itself. And if you remove private property ownership, you destroy the notion of free markets, which are predicated on private ownership and voluntary transactions. You can't half-ass capitalism. Either people can own property or they can't. If they can't, and you regulate who can own property, you end up with a quasi-socialist system where a select few a the top own everything and everybody else gets the shaft.

So it wasn't until I graduated with debt did I actually think "WHY DID I GRADUATE WITH DEBT??"

I don't think it was just me, and it could be generational, but I definitely think my generation grew up believing "were supposed to be in debt". Maybe we didn't think about this consciously, but we certainly accepted subconsciously that we should be in debt for our cars, in debt for our education and in dept for our homes.

WE ACCEPTED, whether consciously or subconsciously that it should take a lifetime to pay it off.

We accepted the idea that debt = success. If the average person doesn't have debt, its assumed: they never went to school, they never bought a car, probably using some hand-me-down clunker or they take the bus, and they don't own a home. By default that places them in the LOW-INCOME bracket. Now take the successful doctor - they owe more debt then they own anything, if they actually own anything! The banks probably own everything they have.

I'm glad 2008 happened, were waking up and realizing how stupid it is to be in dept to evil corporations aka banks. Why private banks have to profit every month because I decided to go to school, whether or not my degree actually landed me a job, is beyond me.

In short, I hate that we were idiots and actually believed that debt = a better life.

^ this is also reason why I don't like taking debts, I have never took one from bank. Granted, I have to work and live poor, but unlike many people I don't see it that bad. There is no blame of "income bracket" there. Nobody is laughing at you or ridiculing you here. Everyone knows it is common at this age and time.

About movies, most of them are too predictable as previously said. I love other than American movies, also since not being American I have also watched them probably more regular basis than American. But they are big money. I can understand the reasons why the quality has sank so low. It is same with games, as mentioned. Especially with internet games. People love to pay for theme park games, they are all clones of each other ( talking about role playing games here ). Kill stuff, get more powerful, kill more stuff. Luckily there are waves of different minds that think out of the box. The best ideas make the best games. Take ADOM for example. That game is done with fucking ASCII symbols by a single man and its still ways better than most of the games big game studios do. It doesn't have those precious graphics that are so loved nowadays. I don't mind graphics, but games are made for them, not for the actual game.

Originally Posted by Majestic

The same thing goes for animation also...the Internet is the medium, I'm pretty sure if there isn't already there will be an option to submit Indie animation films to netFlix. But there's so much more than netflix..think Digital download/distribution...Itunes, Youtube, Amazon, etc. Then you have to think there are already Internet marketing companies to get your brand or company noticed and heard. Yea it'll cost money and Developers will need a budget, but it'll be way cheaper than what the majors are doing. The Internet has truly connected everything and everyone.

This is getting pretty far off-topic, but I want to respond to this.

It's true, you can get your work seen all around the world now, no problem. Of course, by exactly the same token, so can thousands of other animators - which results in being essentially a needle in haystack. To emerge from anonymity you have to really be outstanding or have some kind of gimmick that people really like or get your work shown on a major TV show or something.

You don't make any money by posting your films on YouTube.

Yes, you can sell through Amazon or various custom DVD/CD services and they'll even deal with customer satisfaction and distribution etc, but again, unless you're a world famous animator and your work is in massive demand, you'll be lucky to sell a few DVDs the first month or two and maybe one every few months after that. It's no way to earn a living, that's for sure!! Pretty hard to even make back what you invest to make the films to begin with. Same for digital download... I know people who have tried it and just scraped together a few dollars from it.

Also, once your film has been released in any form, someobdy will pirate it and put it on P2P or YouTube or any number of other places. Once people have seen it for free, they're not going to pay for it. A friend of mine posted a film to YouTube once and then checked a few months later and found it posted all over the net by different people. Most of them didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with it - as if they thought they were doing him a favor or something, like free advertising - putting up crappy low-res versions with the wrong info written next to them and that often didn't mention his name at all!! In his case, he wasn't trying to make money from it, after all he did post it on YT, but it was just shocking to see how fast the pirates struck and how far they spread it.

I've spent many years on a site for animation, and we've discussed all this - many people there have tried various ways to "monetize" their films - but you just can't sell animated shorts in this day and age. Unless you happen to luck out insanely and get it included in some kind of compilation. We even tried to create compilations of films by many of us, but it takes a long time to make an animated film working alone and it's just not feasible to wait maybe a few years until you get enough people with completed films - and a lot of animators like to put their work out on the festival circuit when it's done (costs major buck$$) in hopes of winning some kind of prize - probably the best hope an indie animator has of earning anything on his hard work and investment. When a film is entered in a festival - according to the rules for MOST festivals, you're not allowed to show it online and might not be allowed to let anyone see it outside of the festival appearances for a year or so.

Ok sorry - I now return you to your regularly scheduled topic.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

This is getting pretty far off-topic, but I want to respond to this.

It's true, you can get your work seen all around the world now, no problem. Of course, by exactly the same token, so can thousands of other animators - which results in being essentially a needle in haystack. To emerge from anonymity you have to really be outstanding or have some kind of gimmick that people really like or get your work shown on a major TV show or something.

You don't make any money by posting your films on YouTube.

Yes, you can sell through Amazon or various custom DVD/CD services and they'll even deal with customer satisfaction and distribution etc, but again, unless you're a world famous animator and your work is in massive demand, you'll be lucky to sell a few DVDs the first month or two and maybe one every few months after that. It's no way to earn a living, that's for sure!! Pretty hard to even make back what you invest to make the films to begin with. Same for digital download... I know people who have tried it and just scraped together a few dollars from it.

Also, once your film has been released in any form, someobdy will pirate it and put it on P2P or YouTube or any number of other places. Once people have seen it for free, they're not going to pay for it. A friend of mine posted a film to YouTube once and then checked a few months later and found it posted all over the net by different people. Most of them didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with it - as if they thought they were doing him a favor or something, like free advertising - putting up crappy low-res versions with the wrong info written next to them and that often didn't mention his name at all!! In his case, he wasn't trying to make money from it, after all he did post it on YT, but it was just shocking to see how fast the pirates struck and how far they spread it.

I've spent many years on a site for animation, and we've discussed all this - many people there have tried various ways to "monetize" their films - but you just can't sell animated shorts in this day and age. Unless you happen to luck out insanely and get it included in some kind of compilation. We even tried to create compilations of films by many of us, but it takes a long time to make an animated film working alone and it's just not feasible to wait maybe a few years until you get enough people with completed films - and a lot of animators like to put their work out on the festival circuit when it's done (costs major buck$$) in hopes of winning some kind of prize - probably the best hope an indie animator has of earning anything on his hard work and investment. When a film is entered in a festival - according to the rules for MOST festivals, you're not allowed to show it online and might not be allowed to let anyone see it outside of the festival appearances for a year or so.

Ok sorry - I now return you to your regularly scheduled topic.

I think there are ways for animators to monetize their films, not just animators though, this goes for any creative artists, music artists, game developers , musicians. I think the whole thing now with the internet is you have to build a brand for yourself, and to market. NUMBER 1 thing people have to realize is that you will NOT make money or you will make little money if you don't know how to market. People don't just buy products that are good, people buy what is emotionally appealing to them. People have to be motivated to buy.

That's why I think the majors had the advantage over Independent people. Firstly they have a huge budget, then they have effective marketing. I mean when you see a movie trailer, it's not just the movie and story that is making you want to see the movies, it's music in the background that's building energy, that's making you excited, it's the emotional impact.
95% of buying decisions come from the subconscious.

I don't even think they teach marketing in school. But anyway, your brand is you..DarkMatters Studios, or DarkMatters Animations, your product is animation films. You can simply have your own website with your films on there available to buy. Maybe give away your first couple of films for free, put them on youtube, submit them to video sharing sites, etc. Once you get your brand out there, and people know who you are and that you make quality films, they will buy.


I'm not saying you'll be living off animation, it may be possible, but at the very lease you can get money for your creative work.

You mentioned that people pirate stuff, yea that is true....but I think once creators concentrate on creating original and creative work and not just focusing on making money, they will build a loyal fan base. A loyal fanbase won't pirate your stuff, they will support you and buy from you faithfully.


What type of animation do you do?

There's a link in my sig to my animation thread. Maybe we should move this to its own thread? I've been up all night and getting ready to crash - running out of steam, but if you don't create it then maybe I will tomorrow. If you do start it, can you put a link here or send me a PM so I can find it?

Let me see what best summarizes it. I do love living here, and most of my friends are not the typical stereotypes that xei pointed out. BUT....wait for it....more people vote for american idol than for the presidential election. Yep, theres a lot you can take from that.

By the way, I dont blame public schools for that, I am a product of public school and I feel I learned a lot, you get out of it what you put in, and sadly most kids here put in too little.

Other Americans who make the good ones bad? I feel as though I'm informed, intelligent, not fat (the opposite of fat... I'm quite unfat), not uber-religious, not uber-conservative, I don't think we should be in foreign wars, I don't think we should keep spending trillions of fucking dollars that aren't ours, I don't believe that gay marriage is bad, I don't believe marijuana should be under prohibition... And I don't think that my country is BETTER than your country. I'm patriotic in the sense that I think we need to be modest again.

That's what I assume people dislike about us. Also Fox News.

Foreign Policies. Everything else I don't care about as long as I can just go do something else.

So how many of you have been in the US?

So how many of you have been in the US?

Half my family is there so I have gone down on road trips to visit them. Honestly apart from the over abundance of American flags, I didn't find the people obnoxious or anything.

Originally Posted by ooflendoodle

So how many of you have been in the US?

I've been to New York and California, and I'm going to Florida later this year.