Unrest in Iraq, is anyone surprised?

**Caprisun** · 12-28-2011 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Xei

That's nonsense, there are many gullible people in the army who will just have been told, 'your country is under attack', and will have believed it; and that's why they joined. Because they thought it was morally necessary. You honestly don't know anybody like that?

What do you mean, 'how would a military function if people could leave whenever they wanted'? It would function via the soldiers actually agreeing with the conflict.

I know plenty of gullible people. Why is it my problem that they joined on impulse? If you sign a contract in the civilian world without reading the fine print, you only have yourself to blame when you get burned. We have to hold people responsible for their actions or we lose order.

Soldiers would still quit during a war they agreed with. I know a lot of people in the military who hate it. They can't wait until their contracts are up. But every single one of them hates it for reasons other than what we've discussed here. My point is that the number of people who are waiting to leave the military on moral grounds are a tiny minority. A lot of people join without realizing how much hard work it is, so they want to quit because they are lazy, not because they object to the war.

Originally Posted by Xei

The idea that promises are more of a moral imperative than, for example, helping the killing of people when you've decided that it's untenable, is so obviously wrong, I can't imagine how it got into your head other than by conditioning. It doesn't stand to a moment of scrutiny. The people who swore to fight for Hitler; you would advise them, on moral grounds, would you, to continue doing that, and to continue trying to conquer your country and kill your fellows, rather than violate their promise? And the very troops you fight in foreign countries who have sworn to Allah; you would say that it's a moral imperative for them to keep trying to kill you? Surely you see how untenable that is.

No I would not expect a German to continue to fight for Hitler, and the ones who have been "sworn to Allah" are not a part of any official army and presumably have no contracts. Nazis were obviously asked to do horrible things on a regular basis. In such an extreme case it is easy to object. Hitler broke international laws and committed blatant crimes against humanity in his own country against his own people. No such thing is occuring in my country. While the situation is as it is, no person can have legitimate moral grounds for deserting the military.

I think it's rather foolish to consider a problem such as this in such black and white terms. I look at the military as a tool. It is there for our government to wield when it needs it. So the place for philosophy to meddle is in politics, not the military. It's the car, not the driver. It doesn't make sense to waste energy trying to make our military a perfect moral haven if it means undermining it's effectiveness, or even it's basic ability to function. What then would be the point of even having a military if you're just going to immediately cripple it?

Originally Posted by Xei

Uhhhhhh, invade Iraq?

That's pretty weak if you ask me. By now, everyone who is in the military joined/re-enlisted knowing that we were in Iraq. For those who were in the military when we declared war on Iraq, they didn't have to go. They can't physically force you and they won't lock you up if you refuse. They'll be pissed and things won't be good for you, but they'll find something for you to do in America. This isn't 1942 and it isn't Nazi Germany.

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

SEAL, eh? I swam with them a couple of times.

I'll bet considering they're basically your Navy counterpart. I'm excited for the swimming, the drown-proofing not so much.

Originally Posted by Xei

You're creating more terrorists than you'll ever kill.

Actually, if you're speaking to MarineRecon personally, he is probably doing a great deal to eradicate terrorism. The Army and Marine platoons riding through cities, leaving heaps of destruction in their wake are creating more terrorists. Special forces is cleaning up the mess.

**ninja9578** · 12-28-2011 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

Then you can never seriously claim to be acting morally. I consider that to be immoral and hopefully ninja and Spart will concede their defences to be invalid here.

Seeing that he seems to be recon, and knowing what the job market is for ex-soldiers with no education, I won't. I'm sure her knows that our occupation created more terrorists than it destroyed, no one will deny that. We promised them freedom and peace, we gave them war. They wanted us our of their country, they armed themselves and allied themselves with the terrorists who wanted the same thing. Exact same thing happened in Vietnam, everyone knew an occupation would result in that, but Bush probably failed history class.

The middle east knew Iraq had nothing to do with 911, The UN told them that, so they saw the invasion as simply the US doing it's "flex our muscles dare the world to stop us" aggression thing, so the other countries armed themselves to the teeth. Marine Recon knows this, he doesn't seem to be the blind brainwashed redneck that you normally think of when you think US soldier. Even if he was, you know the power of brainwashing, and there are very few people better at it than the US military, hell, a good chunk of the population still believes Iraq was involved in 911.

Surprisingly, the person who summed it up best, was Ron Paul

**Xaqaria** · 12-29-2011 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

We are over there because Obama said so. We are killing terrorists and trying to change their government. Its not the soldiers decision on what they do. We're tools. We really aren't helping the American people in this war besides eliminating terrorists that may pose a threat to us. It may be a dumb reason but its not our choice to say so. We do what we are commanded.

Before you admitted to not liking the wars (although still participating in them) you claimed that "everybody in the Military is [great, they risk] their lives to help other people and to protect the American people." and that you "are really helping the kids there". So far you haven't been able to give me a straight answer as to how these statements are true. All you can say is that you don't agree with the war. If you can't defend your own statements then just admit that they are not true.

**Xei** · 12-29-2011 02:04 AM

So basically Caprisun, random authorities are moral arbiters, and not yourself. That's all you have to say in your defence. And then you ignore the moral arbiters when they disagree; again, the head of the UN declared the Iraq war against international law. And you arbitrarily declare other armies to be 'unofficial' in order to maintain your ridiculously asymmetric beliefs that everybody you're in conflict with is not justified in exactly the same way that you claim to be.

The war in Iraq was based on a total lie, hundreds of thousands of civilians are dead, the country is going to fall apart, you've perpetuated terrorism and hence endangered your own country; what is your moral excuse for continuing to serve??

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Seeing that he seems to be recon, and knowing what the job market is for ex-soldiers with no education, I won't.

What the actual fuck. Aiding illegitimate killing is okay if it helps unemployment?

Marine Recon knows this, he doesn't seem to be the blind brainwashed redneck that you normally think of when you think US soldier.

And continuing to do something immoral is made okay if you know it's immoral??

Get a grip ninja.

**Laughing Man** · 12-29-2011 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by Caprisun

I guess I have to respect that everyone has their own set of values. To me, someone who backs out on their word, whether it be spoken or written, is morally reprehensible. Papers hold moral power since they stand for your word. They aren't just inanimate objects, they say words which mean things, and they speak the truth. The papers tell you exactly what is expected of you during your tour of duty and they can never change after you've signed them.

Apparently you've never heard of stop-loss.

**Laughing Man** · 12-29-2011 02:19 AM

I really do not understand this reverence for military soldiers. A soldier here has said that war is terrible and I think many of us would agree. Yet what makes war terrible? The actions of those involved. The inhumanity in which they are enacted. Who is doing these inhuman actions? The soldiers themselves. So why do we revere men and women who do these terrible things? Why paste the false premise that they are securing our rights by killing others? Who gives us our rights? Soldiers and government? I think not. I find the truth to be that my rights, as they stand right now, are more in danger from the institution of government and their "tool" called the military. As my signature says below, war is all the horrors of human nature compacted into a singular event but war is not a separate entity. It is the concentrated actions of individuals. Actions show preference.

**Alric** · 12-29-2011 02:20 AM

I am pretty sure you can't refuse to a deployment because you don't like war. That sounds like a line from a recruiter. Does anyone here really believe you can just say you don't feel like going to Iraq, and they will say yes?

**Laughing Man** · 12-29-2011 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by Alric

I am pretty sure you can't refuse to a deployment because you don't like war. That sounds like a line from a recruiter. Does anyone here really believe you can just say you don't feel like going to Iraq, and they will say yes?

Yes in the sense that "Yes you are going" or yes in the sense of "Yes, that's fine you aren't going?"

**Alric** · 12-29-2011 03:01 AM

Yes in the sense, "Sure you can go any where you want, how about Hawaii?" Which they might say, but only in a very sarcastic way.

**StonedApe** · 12-29-2011 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Seeing that he seems to be recon, and knowing what the job market is for ex-soldiers with no education, I won't.

Wait, so because the job market is bad his actions are OK???

**MarineRecon** · 12-29-2011 06:54 AM

You guys seem to be personally talking about me here now, so Ill guess Ill get more in depth in what I actually do for a living. I do have a masters degree in engineering first of all so that is what Ill do when I get out of the Military. Anyways, I go into hostile areas where there is known to be terrorists, not cites with civilians. I either go in by air, land, or sea. I spy and attack if/when necessary. Then I haul my ass out of there and hope for the best.

Im not killing civilians, Im killing the already known terrorists in their base and I take whatever means necessary to do it. Also, I don't give a damn if you think my actions are immoral. If you think so there really isn't nothing you can do about it besides overthrowing the United States of America.

**Xei** · 12-29-2011 06:57 AM

Or y'know, elect someone who also thinks so.

It is your prerogative to not give a damn, but I personally would be concerned if I were unable to provide consistent answers to such important moral questions.

**MarineRecon** · 12-29-2011 07:01 AM

You have to have personal experience to actually get the point I was trying to make. Your mind was set on one goal, you tried to prove your point without taking into consideration what others here have said. Im fine with that because I don't give a damn.

Originally Posted by Xei

It is your prerogative to not give a damn, but I personally would be concerned if I were unable to provide consistent answers to such important moral questions.

I thought about it long and hard before I joined. I have already made my choice.

**Xei** · 12-29-2011 07:28 AM

You say that, yet you don't seem to be able to supply answers to the simple questions that some posters are asking you. So I would question that, or at least that you did it effectively.

**StonedApe** · 12-29-2011 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

You guys seem to be personally talking about me here now, so Ill guess Ill get more in depth in what I actually do for a living. I do have a masters degree in engineering first of all so that is what Ill do when I get out of the Military. Anyways, I go into hostile areas where there is known to be terrorists, not cites with civilians. I either go in by air, land, or sea. I spy and attack if/when necessary. Then I haul my ass out of there and hope for the best.

Im not killing civilians, Im killing the already known terrorists in their base and I take whatever means necessary to do it. Also, I don't give a damn if you think my actions are immoral. If you think so there really isn't nothing you can do about it besides overthrowing the United States of America.

I was just talking generally about anyone who does something that they think is wrong. I can't really understand how anyone ever justifies invading another country. Force doesn't solve problems, it creates them.

**MarineRecon** · 12-29-2011 07:49 AM

I don't really care if I did it efficiently or not. You all can have your views on the subject at hand and I can have mine. I don't really care.

**StonedApe** · 12-29-2011 08:01 AM

You don't really care what we think, or whether or not what you did is right or wrong?

**Laughing Man** · 12-29-2011 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

Im not killing civilians, Im killing the already known terrorists in their base and I take whatever means necessary to do it. Also, I don't give a damn if you think my actions are immoral. If you think so there really isn't nothing you can do about it besides overthrowing the United States of America.

I just want to know what makes someone a terrorist.

**ninja9578** · 12-29-2011 01:56 PM

No, I'm saying because the job market is terrible, he has no choice but to stay in the army, it doesn't make up for the war crime. Recon is meant to aid intelligence to make sure the bombs hit the right targets and minimize civilian casualties. If he has no choice but to participate in an immortal and illegal war, he might as well help make sure the bombs hit the right places.

Acting on bad intelligence is why the war was such a clusterfuck for so long, remember:
UN - No WMDs, no connection to 911
FBI - No WMDs, no connection to 911
CIA - No WMDs, no connection to 911
British Intelligence - No WMDs, no connection to 911
CIA document by someone within the Bush administration - WMDs, connection to 911 (took UN 20 minutes to identify it as forged)
Rafid Alwan's testimony with no proof - WMDs
There must be WMDs and a connection to 911, wouldn't you have rather the president have acted on the good intel?

We are already there, I'd rather the intel being used is good. If he was in recon before the war and reported that there was yellow cake uranium or some other lie, yeah, he should be executed. He had nothing to do with that though.

**MarineRecon** · 12-29-2011 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by StonedApe

You don't really care what we think, or whether or not what you did is right or wrong?

If you would read what I said then you might actually understand what the hell Im saying.

I have already made my choice. I know what Im doing. I think what Im doing is right. I don't care about what your think. End of story.

**Different** · 12-29-2011 04:00 PM

Imperialism

it never benefits the country that you want to colonize...

The US itself is based upon imperialism anyway...no surprise that they want some more pieces of the pie.
Soldiers need to wake up to what they're actually doing...they're just pawns in the game.
Anyway, Ron Paul 2012...yada yada..

**MarineRecon** · 12-29-2011 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Different

Imperialism

Soldiers need to wake up to what they're actually doing...they're just pawns in the game.

Thats what a Military is. A tool that is used by the government. If you join the Military then you do what your told. We're pawns.

**Different** · 12-29-2011 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

Thats what a Military is. A tool that is used by the government. If you join the Military then you do what your told. We're pawns.

Not a job for freethinkers then.

**MarineRecon** · 12-29-2011 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Different

Not a job for freethinkers then.

Exactly, Im happy that you are starting to see the point. In the Military people don't really want your opinion. You do what you're told and thats it.

**Different** · 12-30-2011 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

Exactly, Im happy that you are starting to see the point. In the Military people don't really want your opinion. You do what you're told and thats it.

Reminds me of the Nazis.