Thread: Stop Making Sex Out To Be Bad/Dirty/Gross/Special/Important/Criminal/Unnacceptable/Unsociable

Originally Posted by Xei

Because there is an issue about the nature of consent. A toddler does not have the ability to make autonomous decisions, but most 18-year-olds do. So presumably there is a point somewhere in between where there is a transition from one state to the other.

Because having sex is a huge huge decision, right?

Stop making sex out to be Special/Important/Criminal/Unacceptable/Degrading/18+.

Originally Posted by Xei

Considering I wasn't trying to produce one you could be waiting a while.

Then I'm waiting for a real argument of any kind. Stop pussy footing around. At what age does someone become capable of making decisions for themselves?

Not once did Xei say sex should be limited to people above the age of 18 or that people below that age are somehow magically unable to give consent. All he said was that a range or sliding scale should be used rather than a strict 18+ rule.

From le Wiki: "In June 2006, the Canadian government proposed a bill to raise the age of consent from 14 to 16, while creating a close-in-age exemption for sex between 14-15 year olds and partners up to 5 years older, and keeping an existing close-in-age clause for sex between 12-13 year olds and partners up to 2 years older."

Imo, that works out out perfectly and it'd be nice to see other countries adopting similar systems.

Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

Because having sex is a huge huge decision, right?

In our society? Yes. There's a myriad of potential physical and social risks/consequences when it comes to having sex. At times it may not be a big deal between consenting parties but under certain circumstances, it can be a monstrously huge decision to make. Sex is just one big grey area... like the blur of thrashing black and white limbs...

*starts searching the web for interracial porn*

Don't tell me what to do.

Originally Posted by GavinGill

In our society? Yes. There's a myriad of potential physical and social risks/consequences when it comes to having sex; at times it isn't really a big deal between consenting parties but under certain circumstances, it can be a monstrously huge decision to make. Sex is just one big grey area... like the blur of thrashing black and white limbs...

Exactly. In our society. That's what this thread's about, how society views sex, and why it's fucking retarded.

Physical risks are limited to STDs, which are not only semi-preventable, but also a risk that anyone can recognize and take measures against. It's possible a ten-year-old could fall off his bike, get a scrape, and get infected. Doesn't mean he can't consent to riding the bike.
Oh, and also getting pregnant. But, y'know. Birth control, abortion, other stuff that's very debatable and very not the point of this thread.

As for the social risks, those only exist as long as we allow them to exist. Whereas a cure for STDs is far far in the future, sex can only ruin your reputation if you let it ruin your reputation.

Assuming you were talking about reputation. "Social risks" could mean other things.

Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

Exactly. In our society. That's what this thread's about, how society views sex

Yeah, maybe in like the 50s.

I definitely see the point in having a sliding age scale for extremely young cases, below 16 etc. I think kids younger than 10 often fuck around in inappropriate ways and that as long as they're the same age it shouldn't be viewed as some sort of heinous act. But I think 16 is an appropriate age to consent to sex with anyone. And I'm not saying that for any personal inclination for younger girls, I simply think prohibiting under aged sex won't stop them from sexing and that a sexual partner their own age is no more likely to be responsible about it than someone older.

Originally Posted by Wayfaerer

Yeah, maybe in like the 50s.

No, maybe in like now.

As far as I can tell, casual sex is pretty much accepted in today's society. It's generally not viewed as the "sacred" kind of important decision it once was.

Tell that to one of the kids that have been labeled sex offenders for the rest of their lives because they forwarded, sent or received a nude picture

Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

Exactly. In our society. That's what this thread's about, how society views sex, and why it's fucking retarded.

That's kind of what I was getting at, it is a big deal. Sex is like the biggest deal since... since the Wu Tang Clan managed to get the group signed to Def Jam and then had solo contracts for each individual member drawn up for competing labels. shit was mad tight yo, na'msayin g, ?? [/word]

I agree that we shouldn't think of it as being gross, bad, unacceptable, unacceptable, etc but it's still a big deal because of the social implications* and the simple fact that it's a social thing, it's just like a conversation. It's not bad or good, it's just there and it happens. It's a big deal in small situations, but not so much in the big picture. Does that make sense?

* Not sure how to explain what I'm getting at so here's a blurb for you to sort of piece together and decipher: Sex can make or break relationships instantly, that in it self is huge. If a girl has sex with more than one guy, she's made out to be some sort of filthy, amoral whore. If a girl in highschool has sex and people find out about it, there's a good chance she'll end up being marginalized and/or hounded until she moves or graduates. And then there's things like having to deal with someone else's close-minded views on sex. My parents are Indian, about as conservative as you can get, and if they were to find out I had sex with someone (lolnope, virgin) before marriage, that'd be like... Well they'd probably go apeshit if they ever saw me holding hands with a white girl so I have no clue what they'd do when it comes to premarital sex. Maybe disown me. Not that it matters to me, but it definitely would for others. For them, that'd be a huge risk to take.

Idk, it's late and I'm tired so I'm having a hard time piecing my thoughts together, but hopefully you got the gist of it.

Originally Posted by GavinGill

That's kind of what I was getting at, it is a big deal. Sex is like the biggest deal since... since the Wu Tang Clan managed to get the group signed to Def Jam and then had solo contracts for each individual member drawn up for competing labels. shit was mad tight yo, na'msayin g, ?? [/word]

I agree that we shouldn't think of it as being gross, bad, unacceptable, etc. but it's still a big deal because of all the societal implications and the simple fact that it's a social thing, it's just like a conversation. It's not bad or good, it's just there and it happens.

Without being taboo, no, it's really not that big a deal. Those implications only exist because we let them exist.
There was a time when maybe having sex with everyone in sight wasn't such a good idea. It's still not a good idea, condoms break and what-not, but that doesn't mean we should discourage people from having it at all, which we tend to do.
"Don’t have sex, because you will get pregnant and die." isn't far off from what I was told in school. Maybe it was a bit more subtle than that, but the message was still there.

Oh no, you posted while I was editing my post. D:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's currently a big deal because it's still seen as somewhat taboo. And because of that, the general public's close-minded views create certain social risks when it comes to having sex. But once those close-minded views and social risks are taken out of the equation, it isn't a big deal.

Originally Posted by GavinGill

Oh no, you posted while I was editing my post. D:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's currently a big deal because it's still seen as somewhat taboo. And because of that, the general public's close-minded views create certain social risks when it comes to having sex. But once those close-minded views and social risks are taken out of the equation, it isn't a big deal.

Will reread. Expect this post to be edited in response to your newly edited post.

[Edit:] Looks like we pretty much had the same thought process then. The only reason sex is Special/Important/Censorworthy is because we think of it as Bad/Dirty/Gross/Criminal/Unacceptable/Unsociable/Unthinkable/Degrading/Sinful/Immoral.

I think there should be less stigmatization of sex, but I don't think the aspect of sex being "special" or "important" should be erased.
For a woman to have too many sexual partners, having sex before marriage and generally not preserving her "purity" she will be labelled a "slut" by society.
That's the type of thing I would see erased, the double standards between the genders and also the portrayal of sex as something "forbidden" or "disgusting".

We should be more open about sex so that we can educate our children.
Gone are the days when abstinence was the only effective birth-control, and modern sex education should reflect that.
As a child, I was given almost no sex education and learned most of what I knew through classmates or the internet.
If we had been given more information, then perhaps there would have been less teen pregnancies in my high school.

However, I do think age of consent exists for a good reason, and should continue to exist.
I like the idea of the age of consent being lowered to 16 with a sliding scale like GavinGill mentioned.
However, whereas young children may fool around together, that child or preteen cannot give consent to an older teen/adult.
In this case, sex is unacceptable. The child is being used. They are too naive to understand what is happening, and their bodies are not fully developed.
This is pedophilia, even if the offender is a teen and the victim a preteen.

I can understand how this age limit is arbitrary, seeing as all children develop at their own rates, but the limit is more of a protection against pedophilia than anything.
Even if a 10 year old seems "developed" for their age, or perhaps is wise enough to engage in sex (unlikely), an adult should understand that they are still children, developing and are not acceptable as sexual partners.
Likewise, an adult should understand that a teen under 16 is not an appropriate sexual partner. There's a difference between a 15 year old and a 17 year old having sex, and a 15 year old with a 21 year old or 50 year old. The law should reflect this. The arbitrary limit there is for people (pedophiles) who do not understand who is appropriate as a sexual partner, and who is not. It's not there to punish an 19 year old for having sex with a 17 year old.
I think that's how the law is supposed to work, and how it should be carried out in a court of law.

Originally Posted by Savy

However, I do think age of consent exists for a good reason, and should continue to exist.

Why.

Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

Why.

I just spent two paragraphs explaining why.
Reading comprehension. It's difficult.

Originally Posted by Savy

I just spent two paragraphs explaining why.
Reading comprehension. It's difficult.

Your post basically says "The age of consent exists because pedophilia."
That doesn't say anything except what we already know. My question is why you think pedophilia is wrong and needs to be illegal.

It's not a great idea for school kids to have kids - it screws up lots of lives. You shouldn't be encouraged to have kids until you're no longer a dependent yourself and have some way of supporting a family. If a high school sophmore gets pregnant who's going to take responsibility, both for childrearing and financially? It's kind of forced onto the parents. Most 16 year olds aren't mature enough to think these things through - just listen to how they argue with parents. It's quite common for teenagers to make impulse decisions - especially since their hormones are raging - without taking the right precautions.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

It's not a great idea for school kids to have kids - it screws up lots of lives. You shouldn't be encouraged to have kids until you're no longer a dependent yourself and have some way of supporting a family. If a high school sophmore gets pregnant who's going to take responsibility, both for childrearing and financially? It's kind of forced onto the parents. Most 16 year olds aren't mature enough to think these things through - just listen to how they argue with parents. It's quite common for teenagers to make impulse decisions - especially since their hormones are raging - without taking the right precautions.

That's why birth control exists. Like Savy said, abstinence is no longer the only form of birth control (not that it ever has been, but birth control is a lot more plentiful nowadays). The problem is that we still have people who tell our kids that condoms are sin, or that they "don't protect the heart", or that sex in itself is sin, because they think sex is Bad/Criminal/Unacceptable/Degrading/Sinful/Immoral.

If birth control could be 100% effective, then it would be absolutely no problem to encourage kids to have sex all they want. But it isn't. Women can forget to take their pills or lose them (or not take them on purpose), condoms break, and sometimes you just want to go bareback. Feels so much better - and if alcohol is involved, who wants to worry about consequences? Fuck it - let's just do it - nothing's gonna happen, right?

It's sort of like playing Russian Roulette with babies instead of bullets.

What is the actual effectiveness rate of condoms?
None of the propaganda they feed you in school, or any of that, what's the actual amount of condoms that break?

Two things:

1. Teenagers will have sex whether you shame them, telling them sex is immoral, or not. Would you rather them be informed or ignorant before they have sex? That's the question. Teen pregnancy is a problem, but I think it is the lack of education about contrception rather than the abundance of it that causes this.

2. Why is pedophilia wrong? Really? Besides potentially fucking a child up from trauma, tainting their ideas about sex for the rest of their lives-- A CHILD CANNOT GIVE CONSENT. What the fuck, man, are you really going to argue that pedophilia is A-OK? A grown adult has no business having sex with a child/preteen. Their bodies and minds are still developing. They are young, naive, impressionable and easily manipulated by authority. Pedophilia not only has the chance to damage a child emotionally/physically, it is also an abuse of power-- essentially the same as sexual assault. Children/preteens look to adults for protection, as beacons of safety. If an adult takes advantage of that inherent trust to take advantage of a child sexually-- can you think of anything more sickening? Especially if the child is young enough to have never had any real sexual contact before, this first encounter is likely to color sexual relations for the rest of their lives. Furthermore, the motives of the adult are utterly selfish and disgusting-- focused only on sexual gratification rather than the actual well-being of the child. Pedophilia is tantamount to rape. There is no consent from a child.

Originally Posted by Savy

Two things:

1. Teenagers will have sex whether you shame them, telling them sex is immoral, or not. Would you rather them be informed or ignorant before they have sex? That's the question. Teen pregnancy is a problem, but I think it is the lack of education about contrception rather than the abundance of it that causes this.

Right.

Originally Posted by Savy

2. Why is pedophilia wrong? Really? Besides potentially fucking a child up from trauma, tainting their ideas about sex for the rest of their lives-- A CHILD CANNOT GIVE CONSENT. What the fuck, man, are you really going to argue that pedophilia is A-OK? A grown adult has no business having sex with a child/preteen. Their bodies and minds are still developing. They are young, naive, impressionable and easily manipulated by authority. Pedophilia not only has the chance to damage a child emotionally/physically, it is also an abuse of power-- essentially the same as sexual assault. Children/preteens look to adults for protection, as beacons of safety. If an adult takes advantage of that inherent trust to take advantage of a child sexually-- can you think of anything more sickening? Especially if the child is young enough to have never had any real sexual contact before, this first encounter is likely to color sexual relations for the rest of their lives. Furthermore, the motives of the adult are utterly selfish and disgusting-- focused only on sexual gratification rather than the actual well-being of the child. Pedophilia is tantamount to rape. There is no consent from a child.

Because having sex is a huge huge decision, right?
It can only be traumatizing as long as we keep thinking it's... y'know, all those things I said in the OP.