Thread: BBC - Crows Can Reason About Cause and Effect

I'm not clear on what they mean by 'causation'. It must be a technical term. Because obviously my dogs show understanding of causation when they hear a sound in the undergrowth and go running after it.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero

Another blow dealt to those that argue against the sentience of 'lesser animals', if you ask me.

BBC Nature - Crows can 'reason' about causes, a recent study finds

Birds are fucking dumb.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Birds are fucking dumb.

Can you fly? That would be pretty clever.

On another note, I took a photo of a pure white crow a few weeks ago; don't see one of those very often.

Originally Posted by mcwillis

Can you fly? That would be pretty clever.

He can, actually.

Can birds go to the moon?

Originally Posted by Xei

He can, actually.

Can birds go to the moon?

No he can't, you know what I meant. Flying is such a useful physical ability. We humans are the most mobile species on the planet because of our superior brain power over all other species of life. I have always wondered from an evolutionary standpoint why we havn't developed the ability to fly. From this I say that birds are pretty clever and why I replied to Marvo the way that I did.

What is this I don't even

You understand that evolution doesn't occur by organisms willing to grow new structures?

Originally Posted by mcwillis

I have always wondered from an evolutionary standpoint why we havn't developed the ability to fly.

Because none of our evolutionary ancestors developed that ability at any point.

Originally Posted by Xei

What is this I don't even

You understand that evolution doesn't occur by organisms willing to grow new structures?

He must've gotten lost in the section of the library that had all of Lamarck's writings.

Originally Posted by Xei

You understand that evolution doesn't occur by organisms willing to grow new structures?

Ah I was wondering if you were going to bite Lets use any one of the common highly venomous snakes that can be found in various parts of the world as an example.

Considering the theory of evolution...

How does a venomous snake with its very limited brain size and brain function aquire the complex knowledge of biology and chemistry to synthesise very complicated proteins such as neurotoxins or hemotoxins that are designed to have a very specific, debilitating effect on the physiology of another species that it may deem a threat to its own survival?

Where does it get the complex knowledge to create a biological system within itself to hold an extrelmely poisonous chemical compund so that it doesn't poison itself in the process and then to be able to administer that venom into another species effectively?

How? And please answer my questions. Did snakes a long time ago rally around and have a survival conference with each other? Lets say there is a King Snake and he addresses the local population, 'Hey guys, you know as a species we aren't doing so well. We aren't very well protected as a species, we keep getting eaten by the other critters that live in this neck of the woods. We need to find a way of defending ourselves or the children or our children will never see the wonderful world and life that we live today. These other critters have bodily functions that are disimillar to ours but we could develop a poison to inject into these other creatures that will disable them or kill them so that we can slither away. As we don't have any limbs I propose we grow a set of long teeth to inject a liquid form of poison that would be quick acting. I propose that we delegate who is going to study the physiology of the other creatures locally; who is going to study their biochemistry so that we can create a liquid that will attack their bodies from within; who is going to design the injection sytem so that we don't poison ourselves; who is going to figure out the complex process of synthesisng new protiens. Now, we know nothing about proteins or neurochemistry or hematology and they are words that none of you have ever heard before but as your loyal King Snake you don't have to worry about a thing. We will work it out. We don't have the luxury of having pharmaceutical grade chemicals to work with and we don't have a laboratory and we don't have a lovely grant from those really wealthy dinosaurs over there that seem to take all of the bounty of our wondrous world but we will work it out. We have tiny little brains but we are clever enough to get the job done, trust me. It may take us many millenia but we must survive so lets get too it and start studying. We will eat as much as we can and we will turn our digestive sytems into laboratories to work out how to synthesise these complex protiens and we will re-code our DNA over time so that our offspring will slowly but surely put my clever little idea into practice. I am such a wonderful King Snake to have the genius to get you all started. Now go forth and become venomous snakes, may the force of evolution be with us. Oh I'd better retract that as evolution will get us nowhere as evolution has no intelligence and knowledge of what we must achieve. We are clever snakes and we will succeed.'

Sounds like a joke right? I forgot snakes can't talk.

I say evolution cannot ever, possibly be the cause of the above. I say that intelligent will has to be the cause. The intelligent will of what; well that is open to discussion...

Originally Posted by mcwillis

Considering the theory of evolution...

How does a venomous snake with its very limited brain size and brain function aquire the complex knowledge of biology and chemistry to synthesise very complicated proteins such as neurotoxins or hemotoxins that are designed to have a very specific, debilitating effect on the physiology of another species that it may deem a threat to its own survival?

Where does it get the complex knowledge to create a biological system within itself to hold an extrelmely poisonous chemical compund so that it doesn't poison itself in the process and then to be able to administer that venom into another species effectively?

How? And please answer my questions.

Originally Posted by mcwillis

Considering the theory of evolution...

Umm... what the actual fuck did I just read?

To put it simply.

Marvo said birds are fucking dumb.

I said they are very clever to have have evolved with very limited mental resources to understand aerodynamics and create bodies with the physical ability to apply the laws of aerodynamics.

Xei interjected and said the evolution of a species doesn't involve any conscious input in the form of will to further a species evolution.

I pointed out in the post that you didn't understand, with a comical story, that a highly intelligent conscious input must be behind the evolution of certain species. This conscious, intelligent will could be the subconscious or superconscious mind of the species in question. Let's face it, a highly venomous snake couldn't create its extremely complicated defence system via conscious decision alone and it sure as hell ain't a process of evolutionary change as it is just too damned comlicated. There must be a highly intelligent agency, with a highly advanced understanding of biochemistry and physiology to bring about these evolutionary changes.

You don't know the utmost basics of how evolution works. It's embarrassing, please go and read about pretty much the most important intellectual discovery in history before you try to talk about biology.

Originally Posted by Xei

You don't know the utmost basics of how evolution works. It's embarrassing, please go and read about pretty much the most important intellectual discovery in history before you try to talk about biology.

And you don't think it's embarrassing that an act of will isn't involved in the process? You can't even get the basics of rational, logical thought correct in your mind. You make me laugh so much sometimes.

That's right mcwillis, lol @ everybody else for having a modicum of education.

Seriously, what are you doing? Go learn about natural selection and then come back. How can you seriously defend your wilful ignorance of something so fundamental to a basic understanding of reality, let alone to participating in a discussion about biology?

I happen to know a thing or two about biology, so let's see if you can stump me.

Originally Posted by mcwillis

How does a venomous snake with its very limited brain size and brain function aquire the complex knowledge of biology and chemistry to synthesise very complicated proteins such as neurotoxins or hemotoxins that are designed to have a very specific, debilitating effect on the physiology of another species that it may deem a threat to its own survival?

Answer: It doesn't.

Where does it get the complex knowledge to create a biological system within itself to hold an extrelmely poisonous chemical compund so that it doesn't poison itself in the process and then to be able to administer that venom into another species effectively?

Answer: Nowhere.

How? And please answer my questions. Did snakes a long time ago rally around and have a survival conference with each other?

Answer: no.

Lets say there is a King Snake and he addresses the local population, 'Hey guys, you know as a species we aren't doing so well. We aren't very well protected as a species, we keep getting eaten by the other critters that live in this neck of the woods. We need to find a way of defending ourselves or the children or our children will never see the wonderful world and life that we live today. These other critters have bodily functions that are disimillar to ours but we could develop a poison to inject into these other creatures that will disable them or kill them so that we can slither away. As we don't have any limbs I propose we grow a set of long teeth to inject a liquid form of poison that would be quick acting. I propose that we delegate who is going to study the physiology of the other creatures locally; who is going to study their biochemistry so that we can create a liquid that will attack their bodies from within; who is going to design the injection sytem so that we don't poison ourselves; who is going to figure out the complex process of synthesisng new protiens. Now, we know nothing about proteins or neurochemistry or hematology and they are words that none of you have ever heard before but as your loyal King Snake you don't have to worry about a thing. We will work it out. We don't have the luxury of having pharmaceutical grade chemicals to work with and we don't have a laboratory and we don't have a lovely grant from those really wealthy dinosaurs over there that seem to take all of the bounty of our wondrous world but we will work it out. We have tiny little brains but we are clever enough to get the job done, trust me. It may take us many millenia but we must survive so lets get too it and start studying. We will eat as much as we can and we will turn our digestive sytems into laboratories to work out how to synthesise these complex protiens and we will re-code our DNA over time so that our offspring will slowly but surely put my clever little idea into practice. I am such a wonderful King Snake to have the genius to get you all started. Now go forth and become venomous snakes, may the force of evolution be with us. Oh I'd better retract that as evolution will get us nowhere as evolution has no intelligence and knowledge of what we must achieve. We are clever snakes and we will succeed.'

Sounds like a joke right? I forgot snakes can't talk.

Yes, it sounds like a joke. A very poor joke that isn't actually funny, but yes, a joke. I don't even know what your point was supposed to be.

I say evolution cannot ever, possibly be the cause of the above. I say that intelligent will has to be the cause. The intelligent will of what; well that is open to discussion...

Probably because you know fuck all about evolution based on the above quotes.

Also, didn't stump me.

Originally Posted by mcwillis

I pointed out in the post that you didn't understand, with a comical story, that a highly intelligent conscious input must be behind the evolution of certain species. This conscious, intelligent will could be the subconscious or superconscious mind of the species in question. Let's face it, a highly venomous snake couldn't create its extremely complicated defence system via conscious decision alone and it sure as hell ain't a process of evolutionary change as it is just too damned comlicated. There must be a highly intelligent agency, with a highly advanced understanding of biochemistry and physiology to bring about these evolutionary changes.

That's because the snake DIDN'T create its "extremely complicated defense system via conscious decision alone." There WAS no conscious decision. Why is natural selection not enough to develop such systems? It seems to have worked just fine for other things. Like the human brain. Or the mouths of Komodo dragons. Or the eyes of an octopus.

Originally Posted by mcwillis

Let's face it, a highly venomous snake couldn't create its extremely complicated defence system via conscious decision alone and it sure as hell ain't a process of evolutionary change as it is just too damned comlicated. There must be a highly intelligent agency, with a highly advanced understanding of biochemistry and physiology to bring about these evolutionary changes.

Nope, evolution is just that awesome. Are you suggesting the possibility of artificial selection by extra-terrestrials? Making venomous snakes would seem kind of pointless for a relatively evolved species.

Originally Posted by mcwillis

To put it simply.

Marvo said birds are fucking dumb.

I said they are very clever to have have evolved with very limited mental resources to understand aerodynamics and create bodies with the physical ability to apply the laws of aerodynamics.

Xei interjected and said the evolution of a species doesn't involve any conscious input in the form of will to further a species evolution.

I pointed out in the post that you didn't understand, with a comical story, that a highly intelligent conscious input must be behind the evolution of certain species. This conscious, intelligent will could be the subconscious or superconscious mind of the species in question. Let's face it, a highly venomous snake couldn't create its extremely complicated defence system via conscious decision alone and it sure as hell ain't a process of evolutionary change as it is just too damned comlicated. There must be a highly intelligent agency, with a highly advanced understanding of biochemistry and physiology to bring about these evolutionary changes.

George Carlin Stupid People - YouTube

Originally Posted by Xei

He can, actually.

Can birds go to the moon?

Of course they can Xei..

So can monkeys, rats...

Originally Posted by mcwillis

And you don't think it's embarrassing that an act of will isn't involved in the process? You can't even get the basics of rational, logical thought correct in your mind. You make me laugh so much sometimes.

This argument can be applied to every part of our world.. from the sun to the sustainable conditions of our planet... What will is involved in every being living and non..... Are you implying God must have done it?

I mean.. life as we know it came from what can be described as stellar alchemy, from millions of stars deaths and a soup effect.... Maybe theirs something behind it all; but nothing you or anyone else can prove.. Which is why science rejects the unprovable conjecture of religion. How do we know some yet undiscovered, beyond microscopic part of all life is responsible for purposeful mutations? Or how do we not know that these poisonous snakes came to be out of mere statistical chance? One was born with a poisonous property, and was able to survive and pass on this property? It's certainly sensible to believe that useful mutations would likely give that animal an advantage and thus increase it's likelihood of surviving and thus passing on it's trait to many others through the birth process.

Shit how do we know we aren't just a part of a more advanced civilizations technological simulation.. Legend Of Humans.

According to Richard Dawkins all this evolutionary bullshit comes down to specific genes being activated or deactivated. We share most of our DNA with many other very dissimilar animals on the planet.

The question for Mr. Dawkins and the rest of the intelligent world is: How and why do these Genetic switchs activate and deactivate? What decides how these switches operate?

Even Mr. Dawkins has admitted the theory of evolution posited by Mr. Darwin is far from a complete picture of the process.

Although it isnt helpful to make up bullshit to fill in the spaces, it is equally idiotic to reject bullshit notions with more bullshit...

Considering for essentially the entirety of "civilized society", humans have believed themselves to be above all other creatures, this kind of research goes to show you that we are not as different from our flying friends as we would like to think.

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

Even Mr. Dawkins has admitted the theory of evolution posited by Mr. Darwin is far from a complete picture of the process.

No one ever said that Darwin was correct. His theory was just a concept. It was far from correct.

I saw the "Watch the crows being put through their paces" part in an hour documentary...it's ridiculous how smart they are. I had to check my American Literature teacher when she tried to tell the class that ravens were dumb animals. I think she was watching too much Heckle and Jeckle back in her day. Also, what's up with an unkindness and a murder?

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

The question for Mr. Dawkins and the rest of the intelligent world is: How and why do these Genetic switchs activate and deactivate? What decides how these switches operate?

Even Mr. Dawkins has admitted the theory of evolution posited by Mr. Darwin is far from a complete picture of the process.

Whatever the actual quote you're referring to is, you misunderstood it. The point is that Darwin's idea is correct and it is the most important idea in biology. It's just that we've learned a lot more information about it. He isn't remotely saying that Darwin is wrong.

If you want to learn about genetic switches, search 'gene regulation'. Genes turn on and off for the same reason that genes emerge in the first place; natural selection. Gene regulation increases the adaptivity of organisms, as they don't need to remutate the gene from scratch, which takes a long time, there simply needs to be a mutation in the gene for the gene switch.

Originally Posted by Marvo

No one ever said that Darwin was correct. His theory was just a concept. It was far from correct.

Um... the modern view of evolution in its basic form still strongly represents Darwin's idea.

There are other secondary processes at play, and we've learned much more about the specific mechanisms (Darwin didn't know about genes let alone DNA), but this doesn't make Darwin any more wrong than Einstein made Newton's explanation of planetary orbits wrong.

Originally Posted by Xei

Whatever the actual quote you're referring to is, you misunderstood it. The point is that Darwin's idea is correct and it is the most important idea in biology. It's just that we've learned a lot more information about it. He isn't remotely saying that Darwin is wrong.

If you want to learn about genetic switches, search 'gene regulation'. Genes turn on and off for the same reason that genes emerge in the first place; natural selection. Gene regulation increases the adaptivity of organisms, as they don't need to remutate the gene from scratch, which takes a long time, there simply needs to be a mutation in the gene for the gene switch.


Um... the modern view of evolution in its basic form still strongly represents Darwin's idea.

There are other secondary processes at play, and we've learned much more about the specific mechanisms (Darwin didn't know about genes let alone DNA), but this doesn't make Darwin any more wrong than Einstein made Newton's explanation of planetary orbits wrong.

While the confidence you have in your knowledge is admirable, it does nothing for this discussion.

Natural selection involves removing those whose mutations are less advantageous. However, the cause of the mutation, and genetic regulation is still in question...

I don't know what you mean by the 'cause of the genetic regulation', but the cause of the mutations is understood very well. They emerge for all sorts of reasons, including errors in replication due to the probabilistic nature of chemistry and protein catalysis, or chemical or physical damage.

Mutation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia