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    Thread: If you can get the square root of 1% of the population to feel peace, peace will happen

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      If you can get the square root of 1% of the population to feel peace, peace will happen

      There have been several studies and rumors of studies that reveal if a group of people focus on peace there is a wider effect on the larger population. Apparently the proportion required is the square root of 1% of the population you wish to affect. But this is where things become confusing to me. If we wanted world peace, this would mean less than 8,000 people would have to focus on peace. I feel like with all the buddhist retreat centers and what not, there would be at least 8,000 people focusing on peace on a consistent basis, and yet world peace evades us. I was wondering if anyone who buys into this idea (perhaps mcwillis or juroara?) could provide a better explanation of this phenomenon and possibly explain why studies reveal consistent results on a city wide basis but all the people that dwell in peace regularly on a global level are not successful.
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      The square root of 1% is 10%.

      Omnis Dei maths not good.

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      Many cultures around the world value peacefulness more than others.
      Isn't the square root of 1, 1?

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      Quote Originally Posted by tweste View Post
      Many cultures around the world value peacefulness more than others.
      Isn't the square root of 1, 1?
      Yes but 1% is a symbol that is commonly understood to mean 0.01

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      The squareroot of 1% of the population means the squareroot of 1% of 7 billion, which is about 8000 (8366 to be precise).

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      The language is ambiguous but it seems clear Omnis means sqrt(P*1/100) rather than P*sqrt(1/100).

      Omnis, there is no explanation of this; your counterexample is correct and the hypothesis is obviously wrong.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marvo View Post
      The squareroot of 1% of the population means the squareroot of 1% of 7 billion, which is about 8000 (8366 to be precise).
      Yeah, I just like being difficult. Especially when OD is involved.

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      :<

      No see, Ive heard we needed 1000 people who've reached buddhahood or christhood to facilitate spontaneous world peace. Do we even have 1?

      But if you wanna be fair, wouldn't the world be worse if we took away the 8000 people meditating? At least here in the states, meditation really took off with the hippies. We make fun of hippies all the damn time, but aren't we a better nation because of them? I like being equal to men...

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      There's certainly been progress but... let me put this another way. If the square root of 1% of the population of whatever city they tested this in (I believe there's more than one) were capable of reducing violent crime to near zero, and there's thousands of monasteries worldwide where monks and nuns do little else but dwell in peace all day then how is it possible that the world is so violent?

      I can't remember what the results of the study I read were, but it was something like a 90% reduction in violent crime, if not even steeper. And supposedly (though I can't confirm this personally) they've been able to repeat these results consistently. So how is it that all the monastics in the world could not stop one guy from executing 20 children? Or one single president from battering innocent people with predator drones on a regular basis? If your argument is that the world would be worse without the monastics... then holy fuck. Just holy fuck. How could it get 90% worse than it is now?

      As far as 1,000 people need to reach buddhahood for peace, I haven't personally read this nor do I believe any sort of study could be done to verify it because that would require an agreed upon understanding of buddhahood. But it's a nice idea. And yes I do believe we have at least 1. Me. #arrogantshitODsays

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      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      You can't get the square root of a person, much less 70 million of them.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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      the square root of 70 million is 8366.6

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      I have to wonder where they got that number from. That is an odd number to state, and without some backup I don't find it really all that believable.
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      Effects of Group Practice of the Transcendental Meditation Program on Preventing Violent Crime in Washington, DC: Results of the National Demonstration Project, June–July 1993

      John S. Hagelin, Maxwell V. Rainforth, David W. Orme-Johnson,
      Kenneth L. Cavanaugh, Charles N. Alexander, Susan F. Shatkin, John L. Davies,
      Anne O. Hughes, and Emanuel Ross

      Institute of Science, Technology and Public Policy,
      Maharishi University of Management, Fairfield, Iowa, USA

      This study presents the final results of a two-month prospective experiment to reduce violent crime in Washington, DC. On the basis of previous research it was hypothesized that the level of violent crime in the District of Columbia would drop significantly with the creation of a large group of participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs to increase coherence and reduce stress in the District.

      This National Demonstration Project to Reduce Violent Crime and Improve Governmental Effectiveness brought approximately 4,000 participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs to the United States national capital from June 7 to July 30, 1993. A 27-member independent Project Review Board consisting of sociologists and criminologists from leading universities, representatives from the police department and government of the District of Columbia, and civic leaders approved in advance the research protocol for the project and monitored its progress.

      The dependent variable in the research was weekly violent crime, as measured by the Uniform Crime Report program of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; violent crimes include homicide, rape, aggravated assault, and robbery. This data was obtained from the District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department for 1993 as well as for the preceding five years (1988–1992). Additional data used for control purposes included weather variables (temperature, precipitation, humidity), daylight hours, changes in police and community anti-crime activities, prior crime trends in the District of Columbia, and concurrent crime trends in neighboring cities. Average weekly temperature was significantly correlated with homicides, rapes and assaults (HRA crimes), as has also been found in previous research; therefore temperature was used as a control variable in the main analysis of HRA crimes. Using time series analysis, violent crimes were analyzed separately in terms of HRA crimes (crimes against the person) and robbery (monetary crimes), as well as together.

      Analysis of 1993 data, controlling for temperature, revealed that there was a highly significant decrease in HRA crimes associated with increases in the size of the group during the Demonstration Project. The maximum decrease was 23.3% when the size of the group was largest during the final week of the project. The statistical probability that this result could reflect chance variation in crime levels was less than 2 in 1 billion (p < .000000002). When a longer baseline is used (1988–1993 data), the maximum decrease was 24.6% during this period (p < .00003). When analyzed as a separate variable, robberies did not decrease significantly, but a joint analysis of both HRA crimes and robberies indicated that violent crimes as a whole decreased significantly to a maximum amount of 15.6% during the final week of the project (p = .0008).

      Several additional analyses were performed on HRA crimes to further assess the strength of the main findings. These indicated that the reduction of HRA crimes associated with the group of participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs could not be attributed to changes in police staffing. These secondary analyses also found that the reduction of HRA crimes was highly robust to alternative specifications of the statistical model—that is, the effect is independent of the isolated details of the models used to assess seasonal cycles and trends. No significant decrease was found in any of the prior five years during this period of time, indicating that this effect was not due to the specific time of year. Furthermore, the intervention parameters for the group size revealed that the effect of the group was not only cumulative with the increase in group size, but also continued for some time after the end of the project.

      Based on the results of the study, the steady state gain (long-term effect) associated with a permanent group of 4,000 participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs was calculated as a 48% reduction in HRA crimes in the District of Columbia.

      Given the strength of these results, their consistency with the positive results of previous research, the grave human and financial costs of violent crime, and the lack of other effective and scientific methods to reduce crime, policy makers are urged to apply this approach on a large scale for the benefit of society.

      ---

      Original Poster, with regards to this phenomenon on a global level I have my views that would add to this thread but I don't have the time to do so unfortunately. Fascinating subject though.
      Last edited by mcwillis; 12-21-2012 at 01:44 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      I have to wonder where they got that number from. That is an odd number to state, and without some backup I don't find it really all that believable.
      It's not really a number, it's a relationship, and demographic relationships often follow power laws; and often even if it doesn't work particularly well, using it as a rule of thumb can be useful. For instance, if you plot innovation versus size of a population centre (all else equal), you apparently get a 4/3 power law up to some constant of proportionality, which means larger cities generate more innovation than you'd expect to based solely on their population (which'd give a power of 1).

      The issue here is that it looks like somebody with a vague knowledge of quantitative sociology has just guessed a power law, because it certainly doesn't match empirical data, as the OP demonstrates.

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      I was way into transcendental meditation for a long time, and I still do it sometimes. I still wonder... How does quietly saying a mantra in your head and going into a relaxed state of heightened consciousness send peace out into the external world? Without saying that the claim is bullshit, I will say that it is a bullshit organization making the claim. I used to be a very dedicated member.

      In my last days, I was getting calalogues in the mail, and they were selling oil you can rub on your stomach to balance out your "doshas" and creams that you put on to get closer to enlightenment and all kinds of other nonsense. Years after I denounced Maharishi Mahesh Yogi as a fraud (at which point Deepak Chopra was getting on the radar by being one of his top sidekicks), I was still getting catalogues from them once in a while. At this point, they were claiming that balancing out one's inner planetary system is about getting it in line with the actual solar system. Also, Maharishi had gone from saying he could teach people to levitate to saying he could teach people to fly over towns like Superman.

      When I was still sucked in, I had the instilled belief that my mantra was chosen for me because it is the mantra I was made for and they knew how to determine it. I was not supposed to tell anybody my mantra because it was sacred and special and keeping it a secret gave it more power. Many years after I denounced the scam cult, I read on the internet that there are only something like 12 mantras that the organization gives people. I looked at a list of the mantras, and mine was on it.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      I still wonder... How does quietly saying a mantra in your head and going into a relaxed state of heightened consciousness send peace out into the external world?
      I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to these theories nor do I really buy into them, but what I've been told online is that our brains apparently emit certain frequencies depending on our moods and states of consciousness. So it's theorized that if you get a large number of people emitting the same frequency for an extended period of time, it's picked up by other people within a certain range. And then it has the same effect that binaural beats do, certain tones and frequencies triggering shifts in mood and whatnot.

      Again, I don't really know what I'm talking about, that's just what I've read on a forum or two. I didn't care enough to look further into it or even do any sort of fact checking.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      I was way into transcendental meditation for a long time, and I still do it sometimes. I still wonder... How does quietly saying a mantra in your head and going into a relaxed state of heightened consciousness send peace out into the external world? Without saying that the claim is bullshit, I will say that it is a bullshit organization making the claim. I used to be a very dedicated member.
      So far the best explanation I've heard of how it could work has come from the heart math institute/global coherence project. They relate human brain waves to the schumann resonance. Considering that the frequences of the schumann resonance are compatible with the human brain, they postulate that our brain waves are a major component of the schumann resonance. As part of the electromagnetic field of earth, it "would" mean our thoughts and emotions effect the entire world in a physical way.

      The other half of this project has to do with their study into human coherence. Based on their research, they believe that people who are in a positive state of being positively influence those around them, in a very real physical measurable way. So they support the idea that a mass number of people radiating peace and love would positively effect the whole world.

      Theyre trying to prove their theories but I imagine thats really difficult on widescale. Not to mention theyre depending on people to say "yeah I meditated" but they can't really keep track of who did or who didn't.

      Also their research also suggests its a double-edged sword. A person in a negative state of being can negatively influence other people just by walking in the room. (good vibes vs bad vibes)

      So, I can't say that their research has proven the effects are real. But even if we hold what they're theorizing is true its still not an easy road ahead of us.

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      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Thanks for the explanations. I was told about "vibes" and how we are all "connected" when I was into the stuff, but I didn't inquire into the issues then. I thought it was stuff I would need to take some Maharishi physics courses on to understand. When I denounced the organization, I just started rolling my eyes at their claims. However, I will say from first hand experience that transcendental meditation can be extremely effective for the individual, but it can be learned from just reading a paragraph. It is not necessary to pay hundreds of dollars and go through a cult initiation ceremony.

      By the way, the now deceased founder of the organization was Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the Indian guru the Beatles followed for a while. They stayed with him in India for a spiritual retreat. While they were there, they wrote a lot of the songs on the White Album. Lennon and McCartney ended up denouncing him (but continued to support the meditation itself), but Harrison stayed loyal for the rest of his life. Ringo was never really that into it. The song "Sexy Sadie" is about Maharishi. It makes fun of him for being a charismatic scam artist.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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      I'm sorry you were scammed. I've thought about scamming people myself, but I'm worried I'll start buying into my own bullshit if I'm not careful.

      I haven't seen any scholarly articles showing that this particular number has any significance. I've only seen it argued that this was the number they determined after so many tests. I suppose I could let go of the number and hold faith that the idea works, you just need more people. But I don't think so.

      I do believe our resonance effects the world, but I believe it requires some amount of proximity. So while the number may be accurate, the people meditating were close enough to other people to affect their resonance. This is a possible explanation for why there is no effect from the numerous monastics worldwide. Perhaps because they live so remotely, their signal dissipates and becomes too weak and drowned out by the time they reach populated areas. I therefore think if we wanted to achieve global peace in this way, we would need a better strategy and a more organized effort.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      :Ive heard we needed 1000 people who've reached buddhahood or christhood to facilitate spontaneous world peace. Do we even have 1?
      My understanding is that there is no more than thirty of these individuals on planet Earth at present. I forget the actual number. They do spend literally every minute of every day doing what they can within karmic law to improve life for the four kingdoms of nature. It isn't a question of how many but how much they can help within karmic law. Sri Sathya Sai Baba aks us to look at it it like this, 'If God was to answer everyone's prayers so that everyone has the perfect life that they desire, how long do you think it would take before the world returns to it's present state of chaos and confusion?' It is not the job of highly advanced human beings to bring about peace; it is down to us collectively to create the world that we want. Some people want peace and some people want war. War is good for business and there are many individuals that never want a world at complete peace. I believe that there are a greater number of people willing to live lives in general harmony with other humans, whether that is within a few meters of them or on the other side of the world, than there are that aren't willing to live like this. It is up to us to stand up to the governments and people of power that generally create the discord that is present in the world today.

      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
      There's certainly been progress but... let me put this another way. If the square root of 1% of the population of whatever city they tested this in (I believe there's more than one) were capable of reducing violent crime to near zero, and there's thousands of monasteries worldwide where monks and nuns do little else but dwell in peace all day then how is it possible that the world is so violent?

      I can't remember what the results of the study I read were, but it was something like a 90% reduction in violent crime, if not even steeper. And supposedly (though I can't confirm this personally) they've been able to repeat these results consistently. So how is it that all the monastics in the world could not stop one guy from executing 20 children? Or one single president from battering innocent people with predator drones on a regular basis? If your argument is that the world would be worse without the monastics... then holy fuck. Just holy fuck. How could it get 90% worse than it is now?

      As far as 1,000 people need to reach buddhahood for peace, I haven't personally read this nor do I believe any sort of study could be done to verify it because that would require an agreed upon understanding of buddhahood. But it's a nice idea. And yes I do believe we have at least 1. Me. #arrogantshitODsays
      Quote Originally Posted by GavinGill View Post
      I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to these theories nor do I really buy into them, but what I've been told online is that our brains apparently emit certain frequencies depending on our moods and states of consciousness. So it's theorized that if you get a large number of people emitting the same frequency for an extended period of time, it's picked up by other people within a certain range. And then it has the same effect that binaural beats do, certain tones and frequencies triggering shifts in mood and whatnot.

      Again, I don't really know what I'm talking about, that's just what I've read on a forum or two. I didn't care enough to look further into it or even do any sort of fact checking.
      I am looking at this subject from the viewpoint of thoughtforms. Advanced psychics can see thoughts emanate within a person's aura and then separate from the aura. These thoughtforms have energy and substance which, if powerful enough, can influence matter and the minds of other people. Our general thoughts have little power but if one deliberately generates powerful thoughts they can have a devestating effect. For example a simple psychic attack just involves the attacker, often unknowingly, having the same strong thoughts of hatred against a person and those thoughts become a powerful thoughform that becomes stronger the more it is fed by the attacker.

      One of the most common cleansing meditations I have come across is for one to imagine that one's whole body is suffused with white light and to see this white light emanate a few feet from the physical body to clear any unhealthy thoughtforms that have attached themselves to one's subtle bodies. If a large group of people were to do this exercise on a large scale by seeing the light emanate several miles from their bodies engulfing a city an actual group thoughtform would be generated and would be powerful enough to influence the thoughts of certain people within that light thoughtform.

      Some people are easier to influence than others through the use of thoughtforms. Some are very hard to influence and even use occult methods to protect their auras (certain politicians do do this I believe, especially in cultures where there is a cultural use of black magick by the populace). 8,000 people simple wouldn't be able to create a thoughtform powerful enough to influence the minds of several billion people and certainly wouldn't be able to generate enough power to influence those with very strong minds and those that use the occult to protect themselves from such thoughtforms.

      Also, influencing the minds of people in a city would, in my view, be easier to influence than the minds of people living in a country where a horrendous war is taking place. For example influencing a heroin addict in a target city not to commit an armed robbery to supply his habit for a few months would seem far easier than influencing an African man's desire, fueled by intense hatred, to kill enemies that have beheaded all the women and children in his home village. It all comes down to a battle of thoughtforms, the stronger thoughtform winning out.

      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      The other half of this project has to do with their study into human coherence. Based on their research, they believe that people who are in a positive state of being positively influence those around them, in a very real physical measurable way. So they support the idea that a mass number of people radiating peace and love would positively effect the whole world.

      Theyre trying to prove their theories but I imagine thats really difficult on widescale. Not to mention theyre depending on people to say "yeah I meditated" but they can't really keep track of who did or who didn't.

      Also their research also suggests its a double-edged sword. A person in a negative state of being can negatively influence other people just by walking in the room. (good vibes vs bad vibes)

      So, I can't say that their research has proven the effects are real. But even if we hold what they're theorizing is true its still not an easy road ahead of us.
      To an extent this is true. A person with a very high vibrational rate in their aura can have this affect on other people. I have seen one meditation teacher do this automatically to small groups of people; in the sense that they can raise the mood of everyone in the room merely by their presence an. But it seems also to be only a small change.

      And this theory doesn't hold great power with relation to the following story as an example. The great Yogi Paramhansa Yogananda travelled to the USA in the 1920's to set up meditation centres. Whilst in New York he went out for a walk one night and was approached by two muggers with knives drawn who demanded his money. His great spiritual power and presence had no effect on these men until he injected energy throughout their chakra systems that enabled them to experience, temporarily, an immense feeling of spiritual love and happiness. Both men fell to their knees in tears and promised Yogananda that they would change their lives to earn an honest living. He gave them all the money that he had on his person and asked them to spend it wisely.
      Last edited by mcwillis; 12-22-2012 at 10:07 PM.

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      Pretend the claim is true.

      It doesn't do anything because sitting in a monastery does nothing. It's egotistic.

      If you were to say that 8366 people were to actually practice peace in everyday life (not getting angry, understanding others' points of view etc.) then yes I think it would spread like wildfire.
      Those things have a direct impact on other people. I have done tests myself, for example using non-conflict words, saying "I have found that" or "I think that" and also using facts in an argument with people and every time the conversation doesn't escalate to anger/yelling etc. and concludes more quickly.

      There's so many simple things you can do. Meditating alone does nothing for global peace.

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      Quote Originally Posted by tommo View Post
      Meditating alone does nothing for global peace.
      But it does transform you on a personal level..and your energy affects other people whether you know it consciously or not

      Meditation is mandatory in this mind-dominated society. The ego is pure pain..who wants to be in pain all the time when they can be at peace and feel at rest

      You being at peace gives someone else space to be..This is true strength to be the space for someone else
      Last edited by Majestic; 12-28-2012 at 07:15 PM.
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      We're talking about people in monasteries worldwide. They don't affect anything outside of the monastery.

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      Meditation certainly does have an effect outside the body. http://link.springer.com/article/10....911496?LI=true

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Well that's certainly interesting. Will have to look in to it more.

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